Anonymous wrote:Hey folks -- look it up: when George W. Bush was trying to increase the debt limit during his presidency, he was met with strong opposition from Dems -- including a very vocal Joe Biden. I guess it's only when the Dems want to increase the limit that opposing it is a bad thing.

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Anonymous wrote:This is going to end with Manchin and Sinema being forced to nuke the filibuster, possibly after a 30% drop in the Dow.

Won't happen. Democrats won't let the US default. They'll raise the debt ceiling by themselves. They're the party in power and will get the blame.

Anonymous wrote:Hey folks -- look it up: when George W. Bush was trying to increase the debt limit during his presidency, he was met with strong opposition from Dems -- including a very vocal Joe Biden. I guess it's only when the Dems want to increase the limit that opposing it is a bad thing.

Anonymous wrote:This is going to end with Manchin and Sinema being forced to nuke the filibuster, possibly after a 30% drop in the Dow.

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Anonymous wrote:Democrats put themselves in the current situation. I bet the GOP would be willing to raise the debt ceiling if Democrats uncoupled the two spending bills, and we're willing to negotiate on the larger one. If they did, then the Democrats could neutralize the Progressive wing of their own party. When it comes to 2022 and 2024, do you really think Progressives are going to stay home or vote GOP?

The democrats already sent a clean bill that the GOP filibustered, so you lose that bet.

Wrong. Susan Collins just floated the idea that the GOP would vote to raise the debt ceiling if Democrats would drop their $3.5T package. Obviously this won't happen, so that leaves Democrats to go it alone on raising the debt ceiling - which they can do. They've had plenty of time to do this, but chose not to do so. Now they're stuck. The GOP is forcing Democrats to choose between loweri or abandoning heir bloated $3.5T bill to get GOP support, or burn their one chance to use reconciliation to raise the debt ceiling. In both scenarios, Democrats lose.

I just heard the progressives said they would vote for raising the debt ceiling if there is totally reform of the Supreme Court include with 4.5 trillion package. Republicans are already cracking. Their corporate masters are very upset.

I don't see where Progressives have opposed raising the debt ceiling. Presumably you're trolling, but I don't know why. There is room for the Democrats to compromise on the $3.5T package, but they won't.

Thye won't? It has already come down to $1.9-2.3T

Heard those lower numbers bandied about, but no real commitment from Progressives. For the past 6 months, they hadn't budged an inch. It was $3.5T or bust. Funny how politics works. When you're looking at a strong likelihood of defeat, you're suddenly willing to compromise.

But it's not just the amount. Manchin wants work requirements, and Sinema hasn't said what she wants. Maybe not being filmed when she goes to the toilet?

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Anonymous wrote:Democrats put themselves in the current situation. I bet the GOP would be willing to raise the debt ceiling if Democrats uncoupled the two spending bills, and we're willing to negotiate on the larger one. If they did, then the Democrats could neutralize the Progressive wing of their own party. When it comes to 2022 and 2024, do you really think Progressives are going to stay home or vote GOP?

The democrats already sent a clean bill that the GOP filibustered, so you lose that bet.

Wrong. Susan Collins just floated the idea that the GOP would vote to raise the debt ceiling if Democrats would drop their $3.5T package. Obviously this won't happen, so that leaves Democrats to go it alone on raising the debt ceiling - which they can do. They've had plenty of time to do this, but chose not to do so. Now they're stuck. The GOP is forcing Democrats to choose between loweri or abandoning heir bloated $3.5T bill to get GOP support, or burn their one chance to use reconciliation to raise the debt ceiling. In both scenarios, Democrats lose.

I just heard the progressives said they would vote for raising the debt ceiling if there is totally reform of the Supreme Court include with 4.5 trillion package. Republicans are already cracking. Their corporate masters are very upset.

I don't see where Progressives have opposed raising the debt ceiling. Presumably you're trolling, but I don't know why. There is room for the Democrats to compromise on the $3.5T package, but they won't.

Thye won't? It has already come down to $1.9-2.3T

Heard those lower numbers bandied about, but no real commitment from Progressives. For the past 6 months, they hadn't budged an inch. It was $3.5T or bust. Funny how politics works. When you're looking at a strong likelihood of defeat, you're suddenly willing to compromise.

But it's not just the amount. Manchin wants work requirements, and Sinema hasn't said what she wants. Maybe not being filmed when she goes to the toilet?

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Anonymous wrote:Democrats put themselves in the current situation. I bet the GOP would be willing to raise the debt ceiling if Democrats uncoupled the two spending bills, and we're willing to negotiate on the larger one. If they did, then the Democrats could neutralize the Progressive wing of their own party. When it comes to 2022 and 2024, do you really think Progressives are going to stay home or vote GOP?

The democrats already sent a clean bill that the GOP filibustered, so you lose that bet.

Wrong. Susan Collins just floated the idea that the GOP would vote to raise the debt ceiling if Democrats would drop their $3.5T package. Obviously this won't happen, so that leaves Democrats to go it alone on raising the debt ceiling - which they can do. They've had plenty of time to do this, but chose not to do so. Now they're stuck. The GOP is forcing Democrats to choose between loweri or abandoning heir bloated $3.5T bill to get GOP support, or burn their one chance to use reconciliation to raise the debt ceiling. In both scenarios, Democrats lose.

I just heard the progressives said they would vote for raising the debt ceiling if there is totally reform of the Supreme Court include with 4.5 trillion package. Republicans are already cracking. Their corporate masters are very upset.

I don't see where Progressives have opposed raising the debt ceiling. Presumably you're trolling, but I don't know why. There is room for the Democrats to compromise on the $3.5T package, but they won't.

Thye won't? It has already come down to $1.9-2.3T

Heard those lower numbers bandied about, but no real commitment from Progressives. For the past 6 months, they hadn't budged an inch. It was $3.5T or bust. Funny how politics works. When you're looking at a strong likelihood of defeat, you're suddenly willing to compromise.

But it's not just the amount. Manchin wants work requirements, and Sinema hasn't said what she wants. Maybe not being filmed when she goes to the toilet?

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Anonymous wrote:Serious question- why do we even have a debt ceiling? It's been raised multiple times now. Clearly nobody takes it seriously as far as spending is concerned, so maybe they should just get rid of it altogether?

There’s no debt ceiling in the Constitution, it’s statutory. Congress established the debt ceiling after WWI to encourage fiscal discipline. It didn’t work.

It wasn't done for fiscal discipline reasons. It was done to make it easier to pay.

How does establishing a debt ceiling make it easier to pay? It makes it harder to pay.

Back in the day there needed to be a vote to authorize each tranche of treasuries. The debt ceiling allowed Treasury to sell them on their own.

Wrong. The debt ceiling was meant to enforce fiscal discipline.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/debt-ceiling.asp

Investopedia is good for a lot of things. Century old historical intent is not one. It's wrong.

https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/181258

History News Network is not good for many things at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_debt_ceiling

"Prior to 1917, the United States had no debt ceiling. Congress either authorized specific loans or allowed Treasury to issue certain debt instruments and individual debt issues for specific purposes."

“Before the debt ceiling was created, Congress had free reign over the country’s finances. In 1917, the debt ceiling was created during World War I to hold the federal government fiscally responsible.”

That's your investopwsia statement. It's also an unsupported conjecture. My quote was from YOUR wikipedia entry and is a simple statement of fact.

Prior to the debt ceiling Congress authorized each specific tranche of debt. After the debt ceiling Treasury was allowed to issue debt as needed up to a certain dollar amount. If you look further, the initial debt issued under the new authority was only 1/3 of the authorized amount. The logic is inescapble. The debt ceiling was originally created to make the issuanxe of debt less cumbersome and easier. This makes complete sense since it was done in 1917, during a World War!, a time at which it would be insanely stupid to artificially limit spending.

You’re cherry picking. This is what Wikipedia says:

“Prior to 1917, the United States had no debt ceiling. Congress either authorized specific loans or allowed Treasury to issue certain debt instruments and individual debt instruments for specific purposes. Sometimes Congress gave Treasury discretion over which type of debt would be issued. The United States first instituted a statutory debt limit with the Secondary Liberty Bond Act of 1917. This legislation set limits on the aggregate amount of debt that could be accumulated through individual categories of debt (such as bonds and bills). In 1939, Congress instituted the first limit on total accumulated debt over all kinds of instruments.”

That's exactly what I said. It was a means of giving Treasury discretion and not having to vote every single time.

You’re completely missing the point. The debt ceiling was meant to reign in Congress, not Treasury.

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Anonymous wrote:Democrats put themselves in the current situation. I bet the GOP would be willing to raise the debt ceiling if Democrats uncoupled the two spending bills, and we're willing to negotiate on the larger one. If they did, then the Democrats could neutralize the Progressive wing of their own party. When it comes to 2022 and 2024, do you really think Progressives are going to stay home or vote GOP?

The democrats already sent a clean bill that the GOP filibustered, so you lose that bet.

Wrong. Susan Collins just floated the idea that the GOP would vote to raise the debt ceiling if Democrats would drop their $3.5T package. Obviously this won't happen, so that leaves Democrats to go it alone on raising the debt ceiling - which they can do. They've had plenty of time to do this, but chose not to do so. Now they're stuck. The GOP is forcing Democrats to choose between loweri or abandoning heir bloated $3.5T bill to get GOP support, or burn their one chance to use reconciliation to raise the debt ceiling. In both scenarios, Democrats lose.

I just heard the progressives said they would vote for raising the debt ceiling if there is totally reform of the Supreme Court include with 4.5 trillion package. Republicans are already cracking. Their corporate masters are very upset.

I don't see where Progressives have opposed raising the debt ceiling. Presumably you're trolling, but I don't know why. There is room for the Democrats to compromise on the $3.5T package, but they won't.

Thye won't? It has already come down to $1.9-2.3T

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Anonymous wrote:Democrats put themselves in the current situation. I bet the GOP would be willing to raise the debt ceiling if Democrats uncoupled the two spending bills, and we're willing to negotiate on the larger one. If they did, then the Democrats could neutralize the Progressive wing of their own party. When it comes to 2022 and 2024, do you really think Progressives are going to stay home or vote GOP?

1) the dems sent a clean, uncoupled bill that the GOP filibustered
2) the spending bills are not coupled as it is
3) The GOP rammed the 2017 tax cuts through without negotiating. Why is there a condition that the Dems negotiate here?

+1
I want to know what kind of weird hynoptic spell McConnell has people under that he lies and people are willing to pretend it’s the truth.

+2

I hope you realize nobody, not even republicans, like McConnell. The maga crowd is convinced he stole his seat, believe it or not.