Anonymous
Post 09/27/2021 20:59     Subject: What Confederacy of Imbiciles Is Working To Prevent A Later Start Time For MCPS High Schools?
It’s going to be awesome if the “change boundaries” folks get their wish so HS kids lose another half hour of sleep because they’ve got to get up earlier due to a longer bus ride.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2021 20:54     Subject: Re:What Confederacy of Imbiciles Is Working To Prevent A Later Start Time For MCPS High Schools?
Anonymous wrote:Wow - 7 pages of squabbling on this today, and very little actually thoughtful, informative, or productive. On the off-chance that could change ...

The limiting factor logistically for having the staggered start times are the number of buses required to transport everyone. That was the cost identified in the original study. One thing that could be advocated for is increased public transportation during HS/MS start and end times, possibly with "express" buses that have limited stops and additional routes that mimic some of the current school bus runs. As the county's density has increased, the public transportation hasn't kept up. In the long run, it is in the interests of the county to encourage working adults to use public transit, and if students learn to use public transit while in HS/MS, they are more likely to continue using it. Downcounty and along the 270 corridor (355, Great Seneca hwy, Midcounty hwy) from Rockville to Gaithersburg to Germantown to Clarksburg should all have a strong bus network that could serve to get MS and HS students to and from school. If the school buses were reserved for the less dense and more rural areas, you could at least have the HS start time go later to be the same as MS start (8:15a-3:00p). If enough students can take public transit, it might be possible to shift some elementary schools to the 8:15a start time too, and maybe get rid of the late ES tier.

I think that's the next most feasible step in this adjustment process.


I’m not sure anyone has suggested all three tiers start at the same time. From what I read, the reasonable alternative is to swap the ES and HS start times and the MS stay the same.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2021 19:15     Subject: Re:What Confederacy of Imbiciles Is Working To Prevent A Later Start Time For MCPS High Schools?
Anonymous wrote:Wow - 7 pages of squabbling on this today, and very little actually thoughtful, informative, or productive. On the off-chance that could change ...

The limiting factor logistically for having the staggered start times are the number of buses required to transport everyone. That was the cost identified in the original study. One thing that could be advocated for is increased public transportation during HS/MS start and end times, possibly with "express" buses that have limited stops and additional routes that mimic some of the current school bus runs. As the county's density has increased, the public transportation hasn't kept up. In the long run, it is in the interests of the county to encourage working adults to use public transit, and if students learn to use public transit while in HS/MS, they are more likely to continue using it. Downcounty and along the 270 corridor (355, Great Seneca hwy, Midcounty hwy) from Rockville to Gaithersburg to Germantown to Clarksburg should all have a strong bus network that could serve to get MS and HS students to and from school. If the school buses were reserved for the less dense and more rural areas, you could at least have the HS start time go later to be the same as MS start (8:15a-3:00p). If enough students can take public transit, it might be possible to shift some elementary schools to the 8:15a start time too, and maybe get rid of the late ES tier.

I think that's the next most feasible step in this adjustment process.


And to emphasize this point, the county is soliciting feedback on reimagining Ride-on. Please comment!

https://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/DOT-Transit/reimagined/

"Your input is needed for the Ride On Reimagined Study

* a comprehensive forward-looking assessment of the bus network

* an in-depth look at Montgomery County’s entire existing and planned transit system

* an opportunity to guide the future direction of Ride On through data analysis and community engagement

* a primary goal of recommending system-wide changes that address the current and future needs of the community"
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2021 19:12     Subject: Re:What Confederacy of Imbiciles Is Working To Prevent A Later Start Time For MCPS High Schools?
Wow - 7 pages of squabbling on this today, and very little actually thoughtful, informative, or productive. On the off-chance that could change ...

The limiting factor logistically for having the staggered start times are the number of buses required to transport everyone. That was the cost identified in the original study. One thing that could be advocated for is increased public transportation during HS/MS start and end times, possibly with "express" buses that have limited stops and additional routes that mimic some of the current school bus runs. As the county's density has increased, the public transportation hasn't kept up. In the long run, it is in the interests of the county to encourage working adults to use public transit, and if students learn to use public transit while in HS/MS, they are more likely to continue using it. Downcounty and along the 270 corridor (355, Great Seneca hwy, Midcounty hwy) from Rockville to Gaithersburg to Germantown to Clarksburg should all have a strong bus network that could serve to get MS and HS students to and from school. If the school buses were reserved for the less dense and more rural areas, you could at least have the HS start time go later to be the same as MS start (8:15a-3:00p). If enough students can take public transit, it might be possible to shift some elementary schools to the 8:15a start time too, and maybe get rid of the late ES tier.

I think that's the next most feasible step in this adjustment process.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2021 14:33     Subject: Re:What Confederacy of Imbiciles Is Working To Prevent A Later Start Time For MCPS High Schools?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Well put. One of the things the MCPS report found was that low-income families said they'd have an easier time getting beforecare than aftercare.


Where does it say that in the report? Why would it be easier to obtain before school care than after for lower income families?


DP. I looked in the report (search on "before"), and I didn't find it.


In fact, the report said that families (without income level specified) found it easier to obtain after-care than before-care.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2021 14:30     Subject: Re:What Confederacy of Imbiciles Is Working To Prevent A Later Start Time For MCPS High Schools?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Well put. One of the things the MCPS report found was that low-income families said they'd have an easier time getting beforecare than aftercare.


Where does it say that in the report? Why would it be easier to obtain before school care than after for lower income families?


DP. I looked in the report (search on "before"), and I didn't find it.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2021 14:27     Subject: What Confederacy of Imbiciles Is Working To Prevent A Later Start Time For MCPS High Schools?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:So who's going to pay for all the new busses and drivers to make sure these start times are convenient for you?


The last report showed the cost at 2-3M per annum. The 2022 operating budget is 2.71B.

That's 0.10%


So diversity busing wouldn't be a big expense?


That's not accurate.

The last report estimated that the various options would cost between $2.6 million and $5.85 million per year. For example, Elementary First Model 1 would cost $2.6 million (ES Tier 1 7:35-1:50, ES Tier 2 8:00-2:15, HS 8:45-3:30, MS 9:15-4:00), Elementary First Model 2 would cost $5.2 million (ES Tier 1 8:00-2:15, ES Tier 2 8:25-2:40, HS 9:10-3:55, MS 9:40-4:25), etc.

The costs of a solution that worked for everybody would obviously be much higher.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2021 14:23     Subject: What Confederacy of Imbiciles Is Working To Prevent A Later Start Time For MCPS High Schools?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I thought it worked pretty well to have everyone on the same 9 am start schedule last Spring during hybrid learning. I don't think the cost of buses should be the determinative factor. The HS commute could be a longer for some of the older siblings responsible for childcare, but, except for the youngest ES kids, 15-20 minutes alone should not be a huge problem. Put in free aftercare for K-2.


Where does the money come from for that?


I don't know - they did it for COVID equity hubs.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2021 14:23     Subject: Re:What Confederacy of Imbiciles Is Working To Prevent A Later Start Time For MCPS High Schools?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Probably includes working parents of young children who’d rather not have to cover another hour of childcare in the afternoon. High school athletes who get home late enough as it is already. High school students with after school jobs. Is that enough imbeciles for you?


Not to mention all of the families that rely on older siblings for childcare. That was a major factor in the 2015 report if I recall correctly. Between older siblings providing care, and kids who needed money from after-school jobs, the later start time was going to have a severe effect on the financial well-being of some of the most vulnerable families in the district.


I've never understood this argument. I am sure there are *some* families who use their older children for daycare in the afternoons. Likewise, I am sure there are *some* families who have to have morning care because of the late elementary start time, who otherwise wouldn't have to pay for morning care. I don't know who all these working families are that are able to hang around the house until 9:00 to get their first grader to school.


Well put. One of the things the MCPS report found was that low-income families said they'd have an easier time getting beforecare than aftercare.


Where does it say that in the report? Why would it be easier to obtain before school care than after for lower income families?
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2021 14:11     Subject: What Confederacy of Imbiciles Is Working To Prevent A Later Start Time For MCPS High Schools?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:So who's going to pay for all the new busses and drivers to make sure these start times are convenient for you?


The last report showed the cost at 2-3M per annum. The 2022 operating budget is 2.71B.

That's 0.10%


So diversity busing wouldn't be a big expense?
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2021 14:09     Subject: What Confederacy of Imbiciles Is Working To Prevent A Later Start Time For MCPS High Schools?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Seriously, ladies, enough already. The science is in:

https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/features/schools-start-too-early.html

This staggering of start times is 100% bass-ackwards.

Board of Education Approves Later School Start Times
Level Time Length of Day
High School 7:45 a.m.–2:30 p.m. 6 hours, 45 minutes
Middle School 8:15 a.m.–3:00 p.m. 6 hours, 45 minutes
Elementary School Tier 1 9:00 a.m.–3:25 p.m. 6 hours, 25 minutes
Elementary School Tier 2 9:25 a.m.–3:50 p.m. 6 hours, 25 minutes


This post is unique in that I both agree that school should start later but I also find your tone so douchey that I'll have to refrain from agreeing with you.


Forget about it, Jake, it's DCUM.


In the end there are a limited number of busses and drivers so someone wins and someone else doesn't. There's no way around it short of spending more on transportation.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2021 13:39     Subject: What Confederacy of Imbiciles Is Working To Prevent A Later Start Time For MCPS High Schools?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Seriously, ladies, enough already. The science is in:

https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/features/schools-start-too-early.html

This staggering of start times is 100% bass-ackwards.

Board of Education Approves Later School Start Times
Level Time Length of Day
High School 7:45 a.m.–2:30 p.m. 6 hours, 45 minutes
Middle School 8:15 a.m.–3:00 p.m. 6 hours, 45 minutes
Elementary School Tier 1 9:00 a.m.–3:25 p.m. 6 hours, 25 minutes
Elementary School Tier 2 9:25 a.m.–3:50 p.m. 6 hours, 25 minutes


This post is unique in that I both agree that school should start later but I also find your tone so douchey that I'll have to refrain from agreeing with you.


Forget about it, Jake, it's DCUM.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2021 13:13     Subject: What Confederacy of Imbiciles Is Working To Prevent A Later Start Time For MCPS High Schools?
Anonymous wrote:I’m all for starting HS later but I do wonder if they could even hire the bus drivers to cover, even assuming they bought all the extra buses—they have such a shortage now. It’s such a crappy job that I’m not sure it’s even fixable with higher pay. The pay and benefits aren’t bad—our former nanny applied for the job and we did the reference for her—but the tests and background checks are really extensive. And, really, there’s not enough money in the world to make me drive a school bus full of rowdy children in MoCo traffic—I don’t even like driving carpool in my minivan!


I am a long-time proponent of later school start times for HS students and will continue to advocate for this even though it no longer impacts my family. However, you are absolutely right. Right now, drivers in are short supply, so there would be no way to do it.

I think that many of us who are older and had later school start times lived in smaller town or local districts, which had a larger number of students who walked to school and therefore did not need bus transportation.

With that said, I still wish we could find a way to make this happen. I have three teens, and they and all of their friends will tell you that one good thing about the pandemic and virtual school was being able to sleep later. They all reported feeling better once they didn't have to get up before 7.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2021 13:09     Subject: What Confederacy of Imbiciles Is Working To Prevent A Later Start Time For MCPS High Schools?
I’m all for starting HS later but I do wonder if they could even hire the bus drivers to cover, even assuming they bought all the extra buses—they have such a shortage now. It’s such a crappy job that I’m not sure it’s even fixable with higher pay. The pay and benefits aren’t bad—our former nanny applied for the job and we did the reference for her—but the tests and background checks are really extensive. And, really, there’s not enough money in the world to make me drive a school bus full of rowdy children in MoCo traffic—I don’t even like driving carpool in my minivan!
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2021 13:00     Subject: What Confederacy of Imbiciles Is Working To Prevent A Later Start Time For MCPS High Schools?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Like I said, the science is pretty clear that sending High School students to school at 7:45 is damaging. At the bare minimum the start times should be reversed. HS students should start at 9, elementary schoolers at 7:45. As far as after school jobs and sports, I would think that education and student's mental health should be the priority here.


I was taught younger kids need more sleep. I would rather a high schooler start early than ES. My high school started at 8, but I think all the levels started around the same time.


I think the issue is that younger kids are wired to sleep from about 8 to about 7.

Older kids are wired to sleep from about 12 to about 8.

They need less sleep, but their circadian rhythms are different. However, we live in a world where, for a lot of reasons, it's just not feasible to push the start time back for HS, which means that we as parents have to wage battle with our kids' natural rhythms. It's frustrating, but so are a lot of things about parenting teens.