Anonymous wrote:

That's not exactly how it went down, did it? More like this:

Muslim: All Muslims are required to study Quranic Arabic because you can't understand the Quran unless you read it in the original form. Translations are incompetent.
Me: Actually, most Muslims don't understand Quranic Arabic.
Muslim: No, all children study the Quran in the original Arabic!
Me: They are taught to recite it like a collection of sounds and told the stories behind them - a subjective, highly interpretative process that doesn't move them any closer to the command of Quranic Arabic.
Muslim: I'm a product of Islamic school. You gonna argue with that?

Muslim: Women have equal rights in Islam.
Me: No they don't, they are disadvantaged in right to inheritance, right of divorce and right to marital property.
Muslim: Equal doesn't mean identical, equal means justice, equal value and a whole bunch of other things.
Me: Actually no, equal means equal but if you want to believe equal means something else, then whatever.

Muslim: Islam liberated women captives.
Me: No, Islam institutionalized capturing them.
Muslim: No! They were treated nicely! Their sexual needs got covered! If they got pregnant, they were freed!
Me: Actually no, they were freed in that case when the master died.
Muslim: No, no! When they got pregnant!
Me: Here are two fiqh books that say otherwise.
Muslim: Here's a bbc link that says what I say.
Me: Actually, that link says they were liberated after the owner died.
Muslim: You gaptoothed STD slut you!

Muslim: Islam granted women voting rights! Here's the verse.
Me: Actually, that verse is like a background check for new female immigrants.
Muslim: No it isn't! It's exactly like voting!
Me: And men were never asked for the same.
Muslim: Yes they were! just because it's not in the Quran doesn't mean that they weren't!
Me: Actually yes, that's exactly what it means.

Something more like that.

That's more like it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Everything was already explained. Several times. In several ways. That specific details were included for women does not mean similar detailed questioning was not included for men. If similar prohibitions did not apply to men, men should have been freely fornicating to their hearts desire even in front of the Prophet. Instead, clear punishment is prescribed for all fornicators.

It is clear you are ignoring responses simply to try to win an argument.

We don't know that. We can only look at what was written. There is no surah where men seeking pledge allegiance to Muhammad were asked to promise not to lie, steal or fornicate.

Clear punishment is prescribed for all fornicators, male and female. That's a completely separate verse. Why wouldn't that have been enough for both men and women? Why were only women asked to promise not to lie, steal or fornicate?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Of course I apologized to you and all nonMuslim women. If you did not understand that, here's clarification- I am sorry for saying that. I lost my cool after seeing very unreasonable arguments and mocking of Islam. For ex, the most recent mockery was when you spoke of the radio station caller who asked an imam if its ok for her to undress when she thought jinn may be in the room. I have a Doctorate degree and worked in IT and law before retirement. If I heard the same caller, I would not have thought to mock her, but would realize she simply needs help in understanding the concept of intent in Islam. You chose to mock her. You like to point out your exceptional intelligence, but exceptionally intelligent people know less intelligent people should not be mocked. Their lack of intelligence may be due to genetic factors, culture, upbringing, and why on earth would anyone hold them accountable for that which they can not control? It's a mean girl tactic and shows your character. Another example is how differently you and I handle curiosity about different faiths. I read the Bible and then sought two knowledgeable priests to better understand Christianity. You, on the other hand, refuse to seek a scholar or learn Quranic Arabic to clarify your own misunderstanding about Islam. Instead, you spout off on DCUM falsities offending the religion of 1.6 billion people. Again, it shows Jeff and Muslima were correct about you all along, you had an agenda.

So I do apologize for my comment about nonMuslim women. I do. But if your motivation is to understand real Islam, you would engage in the serious study of it the right way.

I don't need to seek a scholar because I don't have any misunderstandings about Islam. The fact that I disagree with your claims on what Islam commands doesn't mean I misunderstand it. The fact that you call them misunderstandings means nothing to me. What could possibly make you an arbiter of the right ways to study Islam? Islam wasn't meant to require squadrons of scholars.

The majority of Muslims don't understand Quranic Arabic. Go pick on them.

You weren't actually able to find factual counterarguments to what I posted. You just got mad. It was fun to watch.

Ahhhh, more mockery. Your misunderstanding is based on an inability to read the Quran and lack of understanding of historical context. You will never know this until you speak with a scholar. Members of DCUM who are Muslim know enough to have faith. You need logic and an understanding of Quranic Arabic and history. You'll never know what you don't know without speaking to a true expert.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Oh puhhhhhleassseeee. And for anybody who really wants a laugh, a summary of this thread and the genuine "challenges" Muslim posters faced:

Muslim: Children are taught the Quran in 7th century Arabic and taught the meaning of some suras.
IslamHater: okay, but do they know the translation for every single word in the Quran?
Muslim: how can they when they are children and the Quran is hundreds of pages long? Learning it is a life long endeavor.
IslamHater: AHA! See! They don't know what they are reciting!

Muslim: the majority of Muslims learn the Quran in its original language. Devout ones learn Quranic Arabic.
IslamHater: 95% of Muslims don't know what they are reciting.
Muslim: if most all children are taught the meaning of the suras they learn in schools, and its been this way for hundreds of years, how can 95% not have any idea of what they recite?
IslamHater: proof: Afghanistan has a 23% literacy rate
Muslim: but why use Afghanistan as representative of the world when it has one one of the lowest literacy rates?

IslamHater: Arab superiority is a big problem in Islam!
Muslim: not really. Muslims care only about being able to practice Islam and Arabs don't hinder nonmuslims from practicing.
IslamHater: oh yes it IS a big problem! They dictate dress code to all other Muslims.
Muslim: not really. African women dress like Muslim African women, Bosnian Muslims dress like Bosnian Muslims, Lebanese Muslim women dress like Lebanese women. Different head covering styles. Arabs dictate only how Arabs should dress.


Muslim: islam established voting rights for women 1400 yrs ago
IslamHater: no, it didn't. Prove it.
Muslim: sura Ash Shurra used plural language when it asked people to settle all matters requiring collective opinion by hearing people's choices. God was talking to both men and women.
IslamHater: <silence>
IslamHater: <silence>
IslamHater: But look at how far behind Muslim countries lagged in granting women voting rights.
Muslim: Thats because after the Prophet died, the treatment and condition of women deteriorated and eventually went back to pre islamic times.
IslamHater: But that sura Muslima quoted doesn't prove Muslima voting rights! <note the subtle deflection>

Muslim: the sura Muslima quoted showed that Islam made women politically relevant
IslamHater: No, it was an admission for membership into the Prophets tribe.
Muslim: yes, and that an oath was administered for entry into his tribe makes her politically relevant because more oaths= more power
IslamHater: okay, but then its at least discriminatory because the same oath was not administered to men. <note the deflection again>
Muslim: ummm, yes it was. A group of men took the oath in the treaty under the tree, to become members of his tribe and pledge allegiance to the Prophet.
IslamHater: <silence>

IslamHater: I am such a highly intelligent woman, so well educated about Islam that these Muslim women can't handle my exceptional intelligence.
Muslim: no, not really. You can't even understand a word of the actual Quran. So your hatred comes from not being able to decipher the Quranic text and thus your misunderstanding. Go talk to a scholar.
IslamHater: never! He'll try to convert me!!!! <frightened little girl voice>

And there you have it folks. These are not challenges. They are pitiful misunderstandings based on her google ability, TV shows about Indonesian children, radio shows airing uneducated listener comments who she likes to mock, and reliance on unreliable, literal English translations of the holy Quran.

That's not exactly how it went down, did it? More like this:

Muslim: All Muslims are required to study Quranic Arabic because you can't understand the Quran unless you read it in the original form. Translations are incompetent.
Me: Actually, most Muslims don't understand Quranic Arabic.
Muslim: No, all children study the Quran in the original Arabic!
Me: They are taught to recite it like a collection of sounds and told the stories behind them - a subjective, highly interpretative process that doesn't move them any closer to the command of Quranic Arabic.
Muslim: I'm a product of Islamic school. You gonna argue with that?

Muslim: Women have equal rights in Islam.
Me: No they don't, they are disadvantaged in right to inheritance, right of divorce and right to marital property.
Muslim: Equal doesn't mean identical, equal means justice, equal value and a whole bunch of other things.
Me: Actually no, equal means equal but if you want to believe equal means something else, then whatever.

Muslim: Islam liberated women captives.
Me: No, Islam institutionalized capturing them.
Muslim: No! They were treated nicely! Their sexual needs got covered! If they got pregnant, they were freed!
Me: Actually no, they were freed in that case when the master died.
Muslim: No, no! When they got pregnant!
Me: Here are two fiqh books that say otherwise.
Muslim: Here's a bbc link that says what I say.
Me: Actually, that link says they were liberated after the owner died.
Muslim: You gaptoothed STD slut you!

Muslim: Islam granted women voting rights! Here's the verse.
Me: Actually, that verse is like a background check for new female immigrants.
Muslim: No it isn't! It's exactly like voting!
Me: And men were never asked for the same.
Muslim: Yes they were! just because it's not in the Quran doesn't mean that they weren't!
Me: Actually yes, that's exactly what it means.

Something more like that.

That's more like it.

Anonymous wrote:

Oh puhhhhhleassseeee. And for anybody who really wants a laugh, a summary of this thread and the genuine "challenges" Muslim posters faced:

Muslim: Children are taught the Quran in 7th century Arabic and taught the meaning of some suras.
IslamHater: okay, but do they know the translation for every single word in the Quran?
Muslim: how can they when they are children and the Quran is hundreds of pages long? Learning it is a life long endeavor.
IslamHater: AHA! See! They don't know what they are reciting!

Muslim: the majority of Muslims learn the Quran in its original language. Devout ones learn Quranic Arabic.
IslamHater: 95% of Muslims don't know what they are reciting.
Muslim: if most all children are taught the meaning of the suras they learn in schools, and its been this way for hundreds of years, how can 95% not have any idea of what they recite?
IslamHater: proof: Afghanistan has a 23% literacy rate
Muslim: but why use Afghanistan as representative of the world when it has one one of the lowest literacy rates?

IslamHater: Arab superiority is a big problem in Islam!
Muslim: not really. Muslims care only about being able to practice Islam and Arabs don't hinder nonmuslims from practicing.
IslamHater: oh yes it IS a big problem! They dictate dress code to all other Muslims.
Muslim: not really. African women dress like Muslim African women, Bosnian Muslims dress like Bosnian Muslims, Lebanese Muslim women dress like Lebanese women. Different head covering styles. Arabs dictate only how Arabs should dress.


Muslim: islam established voting rights for women 1400 yrs ago
IslamHater: no, it didn't. Prove it.
Muslim: sura Ash Shurra used plural language when it asked people to settle all matters requiring collective opinion by hearing people's choices. God was talking to both men and women.
IslamHater: <silence>
IslamHater: <silence>
IslamHater: But look at how far behind Muslim countries lagged in granting women voting rights.
Muslim: Thats because after the Prophet died, the treatment and condition of women deteriorated and eventually went back to pre islamic times.
IslamHater: But that sura Muslima quoted doesn't prove Muslima voting rights! <note the subtle deflection>

Muslim: the sura Muslima quoted showed that Islam made women politically relevant
IslamHater: No, it was an admission for membership into the Prophets tribe.
Muslim: yes, and that an oath was administered for entry into his tribe makes her politically relevant because more oaths= more power
IslamHater: okay, but then its at least discriminatory because the same oath was not administered to men. <note the deflection again>
Muslim: ummm, yes it was. A group of men took the oath in the treaty under the tree, to become members of his tribe and pledge allegiance to the Prophet.
IslamHater: <silence>

IslamHater: I am such a highly intelligent woman, so well educated about Islam that these Muslim women can't handle my exceptional intelligence.
Muslim: no, not really. You can't even understand a word of the actual Quran. So your hatred comes from not being able to decipher the Quranic text and thus your misunderstanding. Go talk to a scholar.
IslamHater: never! He'll try to convert me!!!! <frightened little girl voice>

And there you have it folks. These are not challenges. They are pitiful misunderstandings based on her google ability, TV shows about Indonesian children, radio shows airing uneducated listener comments who she likes to mock, and reliance on unreliable, literal English translations of the holy Quran.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Of course I apologized to you and all nonMuslim women. If you did not understand that, here's clarification- I am sorry for saying that. I lost my cool after seeing very unreasonable arguments and mocking of Islam. For ex, the most recent mockery was when you spoke of the radio station caller who asked an imam if its ok for her to undress when she thought jinn may be in the room. I have a Doctorate degree and worked in IT and law before retirement. If I heard the same caller, I would not have thought to mock her, but would realize she simply needs help in understanding the concept of intent in Islam. You chose to mock her. You like to point out your exceptional intelligence, but exceptionally intelligent people know less intelligent people should not be mocked. Their lack of intelligence may be due to genetic factors, culture, upbringing, and why on earth would anyone hold them accountable for that which they can not control? It's a mean girl tactic and shows your character. Another example is how differently you and I handle curiosity about different faiths. I read the Bible and then sought two knowledgeable priests to better understand Christianity. You, on the other hand, refuse to seek a scholar or learn Quranic Arabic to clarify your own misunderstanding about Islam. Instead, you spout off on DCUM falsities offending the religion of 1.6 billion people. Again, it shows Jeff and Muslima were correct about you all along, you had an agenda.

So I do apologize for my comment about nonMuslim women. I do. But if your motivation is to understand real Islam, you would engage in the serious study of it the right way.

So you are RETIRED (i.e. up there in age) and still use language like that?

See, this is yet another example of poor thinking skills. You just made an erroneous assumption, that retirement is only available for older folks. Not in my field, it isn't. I retired because I do not need to work for income.

Actually, looking at your STD and grandma in miniskirt jabs, I thought you were in your twenties, max. That's the language one finds on ummah.com, the refuge of underage British Pakistani tenement dwellers. I'm surprised you have a PhD, and clearly aren't in your twenties, and still talk like that.

Anonymous wrote:

Actually I think its time for others to get involved now. I will let Islamic interfaith, Islamic relations, and anti-defamation groups get involved at this point. It is useless cycling old points.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You're confusing me with your nemesis. Yes, we know that:
1. One poster several threads ago called Mohammed a pedophile. That was wrong, and I too am glad that nobody has insulted him in the last several weeks.
2. Someone, not me but maybe your nemesis, referred to the djinn in the bathroom. You're taking that out of context. As I recall, that was in the context of whether Islam is really monotheistic, if little semi-divine creatures like djinn exist in our lives.

Otherwise, I can't recall other examples that might be taken as "mocking Islam." Please provide additional examples. I agree that a TON of posts criticized you and Muslima for various shady debating techniques you used. I hope you can see the difference here.

If it's "mocking Islam" to point out that your bald statements like "Islam gives equality to women" need to be clarified with detail on women's unequal inheritance, divorce and witness rights, then you have much bigger problems. If it's "mocking Islam" to point out that your statement that "Islam gives women divorce rights" needs to be clarified with detail on how men have free and easy divorce rights compared to women (who have limited divorce rights, only get alimony for three months, and lose their children if they remarry), then you have much bigger problems. If asking you to prove your assertion that converts are growing faster than immigrants is tantamount to "mocking Islam," then you have much bigger problems. I can go back and find where you made each one of these misleading assertions. Why don't you show us how clarifying all the things you "neglected" to mention in connection with your assertions is tantamount to "mocking Islam."

Actually I think its time for others to get involved now. I will let Islamic interfaith, Islamic relations, and anti-defamation groups get involved at this point. It is useless cycling old points.

Again, involved on what grounds? What grounds? That one person called Mohammed a pedophile several weeks ago? That a PP mocked Islamic scholars (contrary to your assertion that PP was mocking a particular Muslim woman) in one particular instance? You've been asked to point to examples of endemic mockery. You haven't done so. Y

You're just browned off that nobody is swallowing your platitudes whole. But since you've been roundly criticized for things like your STD jab, now you're going with empty threats.

You don't need to concern yourself about it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Of course I apologized to you and all nonMuslim women. If you did not understand that, here's clarification- I am sorry for saying that. I lost my cool after seeing very unreasonable arguments and mocking of Islam. For ex, the most recent mockery was when you spoke of the radio station caller who asked an imam if its ok for her to undress when she thought jinn may be in the room. I have a Doctorate degree and worked in IT and law before retirement. If I heard the same caller, I would not have thought to mock her, but would realize she simply needs help in understanding the concept of intent in Islam. You chose to mock her. You like to point out your exceptional intelligence, but exceptionally intelligent people know less intelligent people should not be mocked. Their lack of intelligence may be due to genetic factors, culture, upbringing, and why on earth would anyone hold them accountable for that which they can not control? It's a mean girl tactic and shows your character. Another example is how differently you and I handle curiosity about different faiths. I read the Bible and then sought two knowledgeable priests to better understand Christianity. You, on the other hand, refuse to seek a scholar or learn Quranic Arabic to clarify your own misunderstanding about Islam. Instead, you spout off on DCUM falsities offending the religion of 1.6 billion people. Again, it shows Jeff and Muslima were correct about you all along, you had an agenda.

So I do apologize for my comment about nonMuslim women. I do. But if your motivation is to understand real Islam, you would engage in the serious study of it the right way.

So you are RETIRED (i.e. up there in age) and still use language like that?

See, this is yet another example of poor thinking skills. You just made an erroneous assumption, that retirement is only available for older folks. Not in my field, it isn't. I retired because I do not need to work for income.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The whole purity test thing is almost identical to what INS asked my grandmother. INS asked my Cambridge-educated grandmother whether she had ever run a house of prostitution. When she said "no," they let her into the US.

This had nothing to do with voting or other rights, which are granted, or not, via completely separate processes (in the US, the Constitution).

Sounds like the exact same "we don't want that kind" thing was going on in Arabia 1400 years ago, although for women not for men.

Again?? Are you kidding me?? Read Sura Ash Shurra on collective decision making then. Oh, but wait. Thats right, I forgot you can't read the Quran. And you don't know Quranic Arabic either. Maybe you shouldn't be the person interpreting the Quran then. Just a thought.

Actually, that poster asked you for a Quranic reference proving that men pledging allegiance to Muhammad (not voting for him, pledging allegiance) were asked to give the same promises as women. You didn't provide anything. Might that be because there isn't one? Just a thought.

Everything was already explained. Several times. In several ways. That specific details were included for women does not mean similar detailed questioning was not included for men. If similar prohibitions did not apply to men, men should have been freely fornicating to their hearts desire even in front of the Prophet. Instead, clear punishment is prescribed for all fornicators.

It is clear you are ignoring responses simply to try to win an argument.

Anonymous wrote:

Everything was already explained. Several times. In several ways. That specific details were included for women does not mean similar detailed questioning was not included for men. If similar prohibitions did not apply to men, men should have been freely fornicating to their hearts desire even in front of the Prophet. Instead, clear punishment is prescribed for all fornicators.

It is clear you are ignoring responses simply to try to win an argument.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Of course I apologized to you and all nonMuslim women. If you did not understand that, here's clarification- I am sorry for saying that. I lost my cool after seeing very unreasonable arguments and mocking of Islam. For ex, the most recent mockery was when you spoke of the radio station caller who asked an imam if its ok for her to undress when she thought jinn may be in the room. I have a Doctorate degree and worked in IT and law before retirement. If I heard the same caller, I would not have thought to mock her, but would realize she simply needs help in understanding the concept of intent in Islam. You chose to mock her. You like to point out your exceptional intelligence, but exceptionally intelligent people know less intelligent people should not be mocked. Their lack of intelligence may be due to genetic factors, culture, upbringing, and why on earth would anyone hold them accountable for that which they can not control? It's a mean girl tactic and shows your character. Another example is how differently you and I handle curiosity about different faiths. I read the Bible and then sought two knowledgeable priests to better understand Christianity. You, on the other hand, refuse to seek a scholar or learn Quranic Arabic to clarify your own misunderstanding about Islam. Instead, you spout off on DCUM falsities offending the religion of 1.6 billion people. Again, it shows Jeff and Muslima were correct about you all along, you had an agenda.

So I do apologize for my comment about nonMuslim women. I do. But if your motivation is to understand real Islam, you would engage in the serious study of it the right way.

So you are RETIRED (i.e. up there in age) and still use language like that?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You're confusing me with your nemesis. Yes, we know that:
1. One poster several threads ago called Mohammed a pedophile. That was wrong, and I too am glad that nobody has insulted him in the last several weeks.
2. Someone, not me but maybe your nemesis, referred to the djinn in the bathroom. You're taking that out of context. As I recall, that was in the context of whether Islam is really monotheistic, if little semi-divine creatures like djinn exist in our lives.

Otherwise, I can't recall other examples that might be taken as "mocking Islam." Please provide additional examples. I agree that a TON of posts criticized you and Muslima for various shady debating techniques you used. I hope you can see the difference here.

If it's "mocking Islam" to point out that your bald statements like "Islam gives equality to women" need to be clarified with detail on women's unequal inheritance, divorce and witness rights, then you have much bigger problems. If it's "mocking Islam" to point out that your statement that "Islam gives women divorce rights" needs to be clarified with detail on how men have free and easy divorce rights compared to women (who have limited divorce rights, only get alimony for three months, and lose their children if they remarry), then you have much bigger problems. If asking you to prove your assertion that converts are growing faster than immigrants is tantamount to "mocking Islam," then you have much bigger problems. I can go back and find where you made each one of these misleading assertions. Why don't you show us how clarifying all the things you "neglected" to mention in connection with your assertions is tantamount to "mocking Islam."

Actually I think its time for others to get involved now. I will let Islamic interfaith, Islamic relations, and anti-defamation groups get involved at this point. It is useless cycling old points.

Again, involved on what grounds? What grounds? That one person called Mohammed a pedophile several weeks ago? That a PP mocked Islamic scholars (contrary to your assertion that PP was mocking a particular Muslim woman) in one particular instance? You've been asked to point to examples of endemic mockery. You haven't done so. Y

You're just browned off that nobody is swallowing your platitudes whole. But since you've been roundly criticized for things like your STD jab, now you're going with empty threats.