Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really want to see Ukraine start hitting western Russian cities. That would be fun to see Russians finally getting a taste of their own medicine.
The problem is Ukraine has to use its own weapons to blow up stuff in Russia so it will be a while for the fun to begin.

That wouldn't be fun at all. Notwithstanding Putin being a fascist aggressor who ordered an unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, those Russian cities are packed full of men, women, and children that I assume I would like very much if I ever got a chance to know them.

You are correct. The previous statement was no doubt written by someone who has never been endangered by any sort of war, and is not planning to go and help Ukraine fight.
I hear some of this sentiment from those who had left Ukraine many years ago (citing corruption, low quality of life, antisemitism and what not) but now are suddenly full of bloodthirst to those who have nothing to do with decision making and are suffering from those decisions (though yes to a much lesser extent than many Ukrainians).

DP what bullsh#t answer. Russians need to feel the full horror of what they have done in the Ukraine. It is past time to destroy Russians civilian infrastructure and target civilians through out Russia.

Yes they gave a bs answer. Yes it would be a great bit of schadenfreude for the Russian population, that is so full of blood lust that they cheer on and celebrate rape, torture, and the bombing of kindergartens, to feel the suffering they have imposed on others themselves. Nevertheless, it is not in Ukraine's interests to do so. Besides, the Russian Army rapes themselves constantly, both literally and figuratively. Of course that doesn't mean that a sojourn through Belgorad is off the table or that bases in Rostov are unacceptable targets.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really want to see Ukraine start hitting western Russian cities. That would be fun to see Russians finally getting a taste of their own medicine.
The problem is Ukraine has to use its own weapons to blow up stuff in Russia so it will be a while for the fun to begin.

That wouldn't be fun at all. Notwithstanding Putin being a fascist aggressor who ordered an unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, those Russian cities are packed full of men, women, and children that I assume I would like very much if I ever got a chance to know them.

You are correct. The previous statement was no doubt written by someone who has never been endangered by any sort of war, and is not planning to go and help Ukraine fight.
I hear some of this sentiment from those who had left Ukraine many years ago (citing corruption, low quality of life, antisemitism and what not) but now are suddenly full of bloodthirst to those who have nothing to do with decision making and are suffering from those decisions (though yes to a much lesser extent than many Ukrainians).

DP what bullsh#t answer. Russians need to feel the full horror of what they have done in the Ukraine. It is past time to destroy Russians civilian infrastructure and target civilians through out Russia.

Should Americans feel what the Vietnamese or Japanese felt?

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Anonymous wrote:My take: Ukrainians are allowed one last major battle, then forced to negotiate. After that, a slow and steady guerrilla war is fought while there is some semblance of pause in this conflict, Israeli-Palestinian style.
Russia is still under sanctions though some od them are quietly not enforced or even cancelled. Ukraine gets weapons but only those enough to stop the Russians from advancing.
Russia continues deteriorating under sanctions, while Ukraine is more or less stabilized but never reaches its former economic indicators.
It goes on for decades.

Ukraine never really had much going on for them economically to begin with.

If Ukraine can sever ties with Russia and Russian oligarchs and Russian interference and straighten up their financial institutions, investment from the West would pour into their economy. It is a big country with resources and natural trading partners in the EU.

This is magical thinking. Ukraine's economic integration with EU benefits primarily the EU, who love cheap goods and low wages. It is not designed to benefit Ukraine. Europeans don't want extra competitors and apart from slogans, do not really see Ukrainians as peers.

Um, no. The “Europeans” you refer to are the French and Germans, who likely do not see the Ukrainians as peers; that is true.

But the center of European political and economic power has, and will continue, to shift away from Paris and Berlin.

Further, Poland - a traditional cultural enemy of Ukraine - has become Ukraine’s chief backer and ally. A Polish-Ukrainian-Czech alliance would soon overshadow the lynchpin: France and Germany. Ukraine has astounding natural resources and on top of that, it was always the technological brain-trust of the USSR; their nuclear weapons and advanced systems were once made there. Their flagship - the Moskva- was built by Ukraine, and sunk by an advanced Ukrainian nuptune ASM.

Ukraine will become a member of the EU and NATO. Whether Russia breaks up in a civil war among rival oligarchs remains to be seen.

If that were true, Ukraine would not have become a primarily agrarian nation post-USSR breakup.

Without wishing to hurt the feeling of the world' top producer of pickled cucumbers, "Poland" and "economic power" has rarely been mentioned in the same sentence and it is not clear why it would, when Poland's products and services aren't entering or dominating new markets.

Ukraine has excellent software developers, engineers, and are leaders in many areas of technology and manufacturing such as aerospace and shipbuilding.

Leaders in what field? Please explain with numbers of market capitalization. Or maybe name one area of technology and manufacturing in which Ukraine is a world leader.

Pretty much anything good that the Soviet Union and Russian Federation ever designed and built came from Ukraine.

So why is Ukraine known as a primarily agrarian nation?

I mean name one Ukrainian non-agri export.

You're the only one here incorrectly insisting their only export is agriculture and that they are not known for any other commodities or commercial products.
Several other people here have pointed out this is not the case. Your own ignorance in the matter is not our problem.

It surely isn't enough to make it true to say that it is. When someone is "known" for someone or a "leader" in something, it would be confirmed by the numbers - sales, capitalization, rankings etc., rather than DCUM opinions. No one provided these yet.

You have not provided anything to prove your assertion that Ukraine's only product is agriculture.

I didn’t have to, with you calling it a bread basket of Europe left and right. Now, as to its leadership in “many areas of technology and manufacturing”, I still hear bubkes by way of proof.

I'm not the person who you're arguing with, but yes Ukraine was both a major grain exporter as well as had several heavy industries and mines. Of course much of the infrastructure has been destroyed or is currently inoperable due to the Russian invasion, but it could be rebuilt (ex. I believe they're building a new tank factory near Kiev). If you're looking for something specific, post and will look it up but there are way too many.

Examples:

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/infographics/ukrainian-grain-exports-explained/

"Ukraine inherited outstanding capabilities in some areas (e.g., one of the world’s most highly regarded ballistic missile design bureaus and production facilities)"
"Ukrainian facilities continue to produce space launch vehicles (SLVs) and components for them. Ukraine possesses Tsyklon and Zenit rocket types, and is reportedly continuing to work on new variants. [10] In addition, Ukrainian firms are working on a project to convert retired R-36M ICBMs into Dnepr SLVs for use in commercial space launches from Russia."
https://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/ukraine-missile/

"It produces diesel engines, farm machinery, coal mining, sugar refining, and wind farm equipment, but is best known for its production of Soviet tanks, including the BT tank series of fast tanks, the famous T-34 of the Second World War, the Cold War T-64 and T-80, and their modern Ukrainian successor, the T-84. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malyshev_Factory

"During the 1960s, the Moskva-class helicopter carriers and the Kiev-class VSTOL aircraft carrying cruisers were constructed.[5] The fourth Kiev-class, Admiral Gorshkov, was launched in 1982 and later, in 1985, the first Kuznetsov-class, Admiral Kuznetsov, was launched. The Admiral Kuznetsov's hull design is based on the Admiral Gorshkov but is larger with a full load displacement, 58,500 tons as compared to Admiral Gorshkov's 40,400 tons.[6] KH-11 satellite photographs of the construction of the Admiral Kuznetsov were leaked to Jane's Defence Weekly in 1985 by Samuel Loring Morison, a naval intelligence analyst with the U.S. Navy."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Shipyard

How embarrasing for Ms. Bubkes

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really want to see Ukraine start hitting western Russian cities. That would be fun to see Russians finally getting a taste of their own medicine.
The problem is Ukraine has to use its own weapons to blow up stuff in Russia so it will be a while for the fun to begin.

That wouldn't be fun at all. Notwithstanding Putin being a fascist aggressor who ordered an unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, those Russian cities are packed full of men, women, and children that I assume I would like very much if I ever got a chance to know them.

You are correct. The previous statement was no doubt written by someone who has never been endangered by any sort of war, and is not planning to go and help Ukraine fight.
I hear some of this sentiment from those who had left Ukraine many years ago (citing corruption, low quality of life, antisemitism and what not) but now are suddenly full of bloodthirst to those who have nothing to do with decision making and are suffering from those decisions (though yes to a much lesser extent than many Ukrainians).

DP what bullsh#t answer. Russians need to feel the full horror of what they have done in the Ukraine. It is past time to destroy Russians civilian infrastructure and target civilians through out Russia.

Anonymous wrote:I can't wait to find out what super embarrassing thing Russia did to itself last night. Something brought the troll farms out while we were all sleeping.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My take: Ukrainians are allowed one last major battle, then forced to negotiate. After that, a slow and steady guerrilla war is fought while there is some semblance of pause in this conflict, Israeli-Palestinian style.
Russia is still under sanctions though some od them are quietly not enforced or even cancelled. Ukraine gets weapons but only those enough to stop the Russians from advancing.
Russia continues deteriorating under sanctions, while Ukraine is more or less stabilized but never reaches its former economic indicators.
It goes on for decades.

Ukraine never really had much going on for them economically to begin with.

If Ukraine can sever ties with Russia and Russian oligarchs and Russian interference and straighten up their financial institutions, investment from the West would pour into their economy. It is a big country with resources and natural trading partners in the EU.

This is magical thinking. Ukraine's economic integration with EU benefits primarily the EU, who love cheap goods and low wages. It is not designed to benefit Ukraine. Europeans don't want extra competitors and apart from slogans, do not really see Ukrainians as peers.

Um, no. The “Europeans” you refer to are the French and Germans, who likely do not see the Ukrainians as peers; that is true.

But the center of European political and economic power has, and will continue, to shift away from Paris and Berlin.

Further, Poland - a traditional cultural enemy of Ukraine - has become Ukraine’s chief backer and ally. A Polish-Ukrainian-Czech alliance would soon overshadow the lynchpin: France and Germany. Ukraine has astounding natural resources and on top of that, it was always the technological brain-trust of the USSR; their nuclear weapons and advanced systems were once made there. Their flagship - the Moskva- was built by Ukraine, and sunk by an advanced Ukrainian nuptune ASM.

Ukraine will become a member of the EU and NATO. Whether Russia breaks up in a civil war among rival oligarchs remains to be seen.

If that were true, Ukraine would not have become a primarily agrarian nation post-USSR breakup.

Without wishing to hurt the feeling of the world' top producer of pickled cucumbers, "Poland" and "economic power" has rarely been mentioned in the same sentence and it is not clear why it would, when Poland's products and services aren't entering or dominating new markets.

Ukraine has excellent software developers, engineers, and are leaders in many areas of technology and manufacturing such as aerospace and shipbuilding.

Leaders in what field? Please explain with numbers of market capitalization. Or maybe name one area of technology and manufacturing in which Ukraine is a world leader.

Pretty much anything good that the Soviet Union and Russian Federation ever designed and built came from Ukraine.

So why is Ukraine known as a primarily agrarian nation?

I mean name one Ukrainian non-agri export.

You're the only one here incorrectly insisting their only export is agriculture and that they are not known for any other commodities or commercial products.
Several other people here have pointed out this is not the case. Your own ignorance in the matter is not our problem.

It surely isn't enough to make it true to say that it is. When someone is "known" for someone or a "leader" in something, it would be confirmed by the numbers - sales, capitalization, rankings etc., rather than DCUM opinions. No one provided these yet.

You have not provided anything to prove your assertion that Ukraine's only product is agriculture.

I didn’t have to, with you calling it a bread basket of Europe left and right. Now, as to its leadership in “many areas of technology and manufacturing”, I still hear bubkes by way of proof.

I'm not the person who you're arguing with, but yes Ukraine was both a major grain exporter as well as had several heavy industries and mines. Of course much of the infrastructure has been destroyed or is currently inoperable due to the Russian invasion, but it could be rebuilt (ex. I believe they're building a new tank factory near Kiev). If you're looking for something specific, post and will look it up but there are way too many.

Examples:

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/infographics/ukrainian-grain-exports-explained/

"Ukraine inherited outstanding capabilities in some areas (e.g., one of the world’s most highly regarded ballistic missile design bureaus and production facilities)"
"Ukrainian facilities continue to produce space launch vehicles (SLVs) and components for them. Ukraine possesses Tsyklon and Zenit rocket types, and is reportedly continuing to work on new variants. [10] In addition, Ukrainian firms are working on a project to convert retired R-36M ICBMs into Dnepr SLVs for use in commercial space launches from Russia."
https://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/ukraine-missile/

"It produces diesel engines, farm machinery, coal mining, sugar refining, and wind farm equipment, but is best known for its production of Soviet tanks, including the BT tank series of fast tanks, the famous T-34 of the Second World War, the Cold War T-64 and T-80, and their modern Ukrainian successor, the T-84. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malyshev_Factory

"During the 1960s, the Moskva-class helicopter carriers and the Kiev-class VSTOL aircraft carrying cruisers were constructed.[5] The fourth Kiev-class, Admiral Gorshkov, was launched in 1982 and later, in 1985, the first Kuznetsov-class, Admiral Kuznetsov, was launched. The Admiral Kuznetsov's hull design is based on the Admiral Gorshkov but is larger with a full load displacement, 58,500 tons as compared to Admiral Gorshkov's 40,400 tons.[6] KH-11 satellite photographs of the construction of the Admiral Kuznetsov were leaked to Jane's Defence Weekly in 1985 by Samuel Loring Morison, a naval intelligence analyst with the U.S. Navy."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Shipyard

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really want to see Ukraine start hitting western Russian cities. That would be fun to see Russians finally getting a taste of their own medicine.
The problem is Ukraine has to use its own weapons to blow up stuff in Russia so it will be a while for the fun to begin.

That wouldn't be fun at all. Notwithstanding Putin being a fascist aggressor who ordered an unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, those Russian cities are packed full of men, women, and children that I assume I would like very much if I ever got a chance to know them.

You are correct. The previous statement was no doubt written by someone who has never been endangered by any sort of war, and is not planning to go and help Ukraine fight.
I hear some of this sentiment from those who had left Ukraine many years ago (citing corruption, low quality of life, antisemitism and what not) but now are suddenly full of bloodthirst to those who have nothing to do with decision making and are suffering from those decisions (though yes to a much lesser extent than many Ukrainians).

DP what bullsh#t answer. Russians need to feel the full horror of what they have done in the Ukraine. It is past time to destroy Russians civilian infrastructure and target civilians through out Russia.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really want to see Ukraine start hitting western Russian cities. That would be fun to see Russians finally getting a taste of their own medicine.
The problem is Ukraine has to use its own weapons to blow up stuff in Russia so it will be a while for the fun to begin.

That wouldn't be fun at all. Notwithstanding Putin being a fascist aggressor who ordered an unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, those Russian cities are packed full of men, women, and children that I assume I would like very much if I ever got a chance to know them.

You are correct. The previous statement was no doubt written by someone who has never been endangered by any sort of war, and is not planning to go and help Ukraine fight.
I hear some of this sentiment from those who had left Ukraine many years ago (citing corruption, low quality of life, antisemitism and what not) but now are suddenly full of bloodthirst to those who have nothing to do with decision making and are suffering from those decisions (though yes to a much lesser extent than many Ukrainians).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really want to see Ukraine start hitting western Russian cities. That would be fun to see Russians finally getting a taste of their own medicine.
The problem is Ukraine has to use its own weapons to blow up stuff in Russia so it will be a while for the fun to begin.

That wouldn't be fun at all. Notwithstanding Putin being a fascist aggressor who ordered an unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, those Russian cities are packed full of men, women, and children that I assume I would like very much if I ever got a chance to know them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know who is reading this, maybe it’s a bunch of Fox News Tucker types who somehow love Russia and it’s authoritarian ways and wish to emulate that stateside or maybe it’s some paid posters in a computer center in red square who idiotically try to spread their venomous anti-Ukraine propaganda, but fk you.

I am so happy the Ukrainians are showing you idiots what it’s all about. I’m glad hicks in flyover country who are being fed bs about how Ukrainians are Russian spreading people anyway and we should totally not care about Ukraine and basically “it’s not our problem”.

Shut up.

It is our problem and I’m glad we stuck with our allies. I’m glad Mitch McConnell, turtle that he is, stuck with Ukraine. I’m glad we didn’t listen to Russia living trump and we stuck with Ukraine. You people need to shape up. Get with the fking program. You can either be pot autocrat or pro western democracy and standing with our allies. So stand up.

LOL you sound just like W Bush.

Would you like the list of autocrats the US describes as dear friends and allies?

And you sound like an ignorant Fox News viewer, a rabid Christian nationalist enraptured with Putin’s strongman aura or a paid Russian troll.

Pssst... the left has a new-ish (3-4 years now) talking point on this. It is now the left that dislikes gulf state dictators. Biden famously snubbed Saudi Arabia and now they are hosting Russian and Chinese officials and they have announced that their monogamous relationship with us is over. The right is furious that the left is anti-Gulf state allies.

You are entitled to an independent view on this that is divorced from partisan politics. But, you're dead wrong that the pp sounds like a "Fox News consumer."

Lol it is the Saudis who snubbed Biden, not the other way round.

Biden literally campaigned on a promise to make Saudi Arabia a global "pariah".

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/08/democrats-biden-saudi-trip-00037891

I think that counts as starting it. Saudi has been among the US's closest allies in the world and this was an abrupt change to our foreign policy, which created an opening for Russia and China in the region.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My take: Ukrainians are allowed one last major battle, then forced to negotiate. After that, a slow and steady guerrilla war is fought while there is some semblance of pause in this conflict, Israeli-Palestinian style.
Russia is still under sanctions though some od them are quietly not enforced or even cancelled. Ukraine gets weapons but only those enough to stop the Russians from advancing.
Russia continues deteriorating under sanctions, while Ukraine is more or less stabilized but never reaches its former economic indicators.
It goes on for decades.

Ukraine never really had much going on for them economically to begin with.

If Ukraine can sever ties with Russia and Russian oligarchs and Russian interference and straighten up their financial institutions, investment from the West would pour into their economy. It is a big country with resources and natural trading partners in the EU.

This is magical thinking. Ukraine's economic integration with EU benefits primarily the EU, who love cheap goods and low wages. It is not designed to benefit Ukraine. Europeans don't want extra competitors and apart from slogans, do not really see Ukrainians as peers.

Um, no. The “Europeans” you refer to are the French and Germans, who likely do not see the Ukrainians as peers; that is true.

But the center of European political and economic power has, and will continue, to shift away from Paris and Berlin.

Further, Poland - a traditional cultural enemy of Ukraine - has become Ukraine’s chief backer and ally. A Polish-Ukrainian-Czech alliance would soon overshadow the lynchpin: France and Germany. Ukraine has astounding natural resources and on top of that, it was always the technological brain-trust of the USSR; their nuclear weapons and advanced systems were once made there. Their flagship - the Moskva- was built by Ukraine, and sunk by an advanced Ukrainian nuptune ASM.

Ukraine will become a member of the EU and NATO. Whether Russia breaks up in a civil war among rival oligarchs remains to be seen.

If that were true, Ukraine would not have become a primarily agrarian nation post-USSR breakup.

Without wishing to hurt the feeling of the world' top producer of pickled cucumbers, "Poland" and "economic power" has rarely been mentioned in the same sentence and it is not clear why it would, when Poland's products and services aren't entering or dominating new markets.

Ukraine has excellent software developers, engineers, and are leaders in many areas of technology and manufacturing such as aerospace and shipbuilding.

Leaders in what field? Please explain with numbers of market capitalization. Or maybe name one area of technology and manufacturing in which Ukraine is a world leader.

Pretty much anything good that the Soviet Union and Russian Federation ever designed and built came from Ukraine.

So why is Ukraine known as a primarily agrarian nation?

I mean name one Ukrainian non-agri export.

You're the only one here incorrectly insisting their only export is agriculture and that they are not known for any other commodities or commercial products.
Several other people here have pointed out this is not the case. Your own ignorance in the matter is not our problem.

It surely isn't enough to make it true to say that it is. When someone is "known" for someone or a "leader" in something, it would be confirmed by the numbers - sales, capitalization, rankings etc., rather than DCUM opinions. No one provided these yet.

You have not provided anything to prove your assertion that Ukraine's only product is agriculture.

I didn’t have to, with you calling it a bread basket of Europe left and right. Now, as to its leadership in “many areas of technology and manufacturing”, I still hear bubkes by way of proof.

Anonymous wrote:

Agree with all this, but knock it off with the "flyover country" crap. Your disdain should be directed only on the Fox News Tucker types-- who live everywhere-- and not on broad swaths of American geography.

Anonymous wrote:I really want to see Ukraine start hitting western Russian cities. That would be fun to see Russians finally getting a taste of their own medicine.
The problem is Ukraine has to use its own weapons to blow up stuff in Russia so it will be a while for the fun to begin.