Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is no community that is affected more by overuse of north flow operations than Prince George's County. I am only guessing that they are the ones intending to raise the issue of imbalance between south flow and north flow operations at the meeting this Thursday.

At issue for PG and Montgomery Counties are low flying airplanes starting their final descent. Currently, the ratio works in favor of Potomac in Montgomery County (procedure used approx. 35% of the time ) as opposed to Accokeek and Fort Washington in Prince George's County (used approx. 65% of the time and at much lower altitudes).

Any slight increase in southbound flights above the 35% typically due to the weather Adam D. Groce
in complaints to the FAA from the Montgomery County delegation on the Working Group. The FAA shows empathy and promises action.

There is no evidence in the minutes from the Working Group meetings that anybody has ever pointed out to the committee members that any increase in south flow operations brings a welcome relief to residents in Prince George's County who are disproportionately affected by arrivals.

Perhaps the DCA Working Group that consists of community members, MWAA, FAA and industry representatives could now seize this opportunity to help ensure greater equity for all affected by airplane noise.

Unfortunately, at last week's meeting nobody brought up the issue of imbalance between South and North flow operations. However when discussing arrivals from the north to runway 15 Montgomery county reminded the FAA of an option to switch to North flow operations in light southern winds instead of using runway 15. That would of course mean more noise for PG county.

I hope that comment will not be excluded from the minutes because it was so outrageous. Even the FAA responded that they would not be considering switching the flow for that reason alone.

Did others react to the comment from MOCO? Why is everyone dumping noise on PG County?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is no community that is affected more by overuse of north flow operations than Prince George's County. I am only guessing that they are the ones intending to raise the issue of imbalance between south flow and north flow operations at the meeting this Thursday.

At issue for PG and Montgomery Counties are low flying airplanes starting their final descent. Currently, the ratio works in favor of Potomac in Montgomery County (procedure used approx. 35% of the time ) as opposed to Accokeek and Fort Washington in Prince George's County (used approx. 65% of the time and at much lower altitudes).

Any slight increase in southbound flights above the 35% typically due to the weather leads in complaints to the FAA from the Montgomery County delegation on the Working Group. The FAA shows empathy and promises action.

There is no evidence in the minutes from the Working Group meetings that anybody has ever pointed out to the committee members that any increase in south flow operations brings a welcome relief to residents in Prince George's County who are disproportionately affected by arrivals.

Perhaps the DCA Working Group that consists of community members, MWAA, FAA and industry representatives could now seize this opportunity to help ensure greater equity for all affected by airplane noise.

Unfortunately, at last week's meeting nobody brought up the issue of imbalance between South and North flow operations. However when discussing arrivals from the north to runway 15 Montgomery county reminded the FAA of an option to switch to North flow operations in light southern winds instead of using runway 15. That would of course mean more noise for PG county.

I hope that comment will not be excluded from the minutes because it was so outrageous. Even the FAA responded that they would not be considering switching the flow for that reason alone.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird to me that the palisades and surrounding neighborhoods have never mentioned Anacostia and Southern PG as similarly affected, even though the flight pattern often has low flying planes in that direction.

So weird they don’t seem to care about these communities. I wonder why that is…

Just reading this thread and the comments from 2023. What an excellent point and how very relevant right now.
Probably part of the reason is that PG county government seems to be asleep at the wheel so others feel they don't have to care either. Pg county residents deserve better.

Yes. When Vianair did the community survey the smallest number of respondents came from Accokeek! I am sure they did not realize how important it was because there was probably no proper outreach by the county. It is sad.
https://www.vianair.com/soa/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/SOA-Community-Survey-Results-Summary-v090224.pdf

I have not seen any information about the community meetings yet but the plan is to have everything finalized and sent to the FAA by mid march. We may witnessing the fastest public process ever.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird to me that the palisades and surrounding neighborhoods have never mentioned Anacostia and Southern PG as similarly affected, even though the flight pattern often has low flying planes in that direction.

So weird they don’t seem to care about these communities. I wonder why that is…

Just reading this thread and the comments from 2023. What an excellent point and how very relevant right now.
Probably part of the reason is that PG county government seems to be asleep at the wheel so others feel they don't have to care either. Pg county residents deserve better.

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird to me that the palisades and surrounding neighborhoods have never mentioned Anacostia and Southern PG as similarly affected, even though the flight pattern often has low flying planes in that direction.

So weird they don’t seem to care about these communities. I wonder why that is…

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry to ask, but can someone other than the clearly very-bothered individual who makes all of the airplane noise posts on this forum please chip in their perspectives on airplane noise in the Cabin John, Potomac, Glen Echo, Palisades neighborhoods? I was over there today and it didn't seem that bad.

Lived on a plane route once and it annoyed me. Lived not far from train tracks where I could hear trains in the distance. It didn’t bother me.

As others already said no airplane noise in Potomac.

Anonymous wrote:One of the agenda items at the last Working Group meeting was a proposal for changing flight paths south of the airport. The areas affected are Fairfax County, Alexandria and Prince George's County. It involves both departures and arrivals.

Southbound departures currently travel along the Potomac River before making a turn to the west past Alexandria. The proposal eliminates the early turn over Alexandria/Fairfax County and extends the departure flight path further south to Accokeek. The goal is to allow airplanes to have an "unrestricted climb" so they could gain the altitude faster.

This is interesting because Montgomery County had the unrestricted climb scenario until a few years ago. However, Potomac residents did not like being near it and asked the FAA to introduce an early turn over Bethesda with the goal of stopping the airplanes from reaching Potomac. The airplanes that now make that early turn are very low and make a lot of noise.

So, if the Working Group thought the unrestricted climb was not good enough for Potomac in MoCo, why do they now believe it is good enough for Accokeek in Prince George's County?

The proposed solutions to the noise in Accokeek are minor. They involve a slight increase in the altitude of arrivals. All those who are involved with airplane noise know that 300 or 400 ft will make no difference. In fact, according to the Working Group a decrease in noise below 3db will not be audible to the human ear.

The Working Group continues to avoid discussions of decreasing the number of airplanes landing over Accokeek because there are those on the Working Group who refuse to share the noise equitably while only reaping benefits. Such solutions would not come from the consultant re-designing the flight path (it is not to his advantage anyways), but rather through direct talks between the Working Group participants and the FAA.

The explanation given for that particular design is that there are fewer people living in Accokeek and some further out parts of Fairfax than in Alexandria or other close-in communities. But the flight path for departures north of the airport was moved from scarcely populated compatible land to a densely populated area in Bethesda!

Are those less populated communities further out in Fairfax like Lorton or Occoquan represented on the Working Group? They will be affected. What is being done to reach out to them?

Public meetings will be held in PG, Alexandria and Fairfax County so that residents can learn about the proposal and decide on it. I hope this process will be transparent, well publicized, and will allow for full participation of all communities affected by the proposed changes.

Here's the presentation:
https://www.flyreagan.com/sites/flyreagan.com/files/2025-01/DCA%20SOA%20CWG%20Presentation%2020250123%20vFinal.pdf

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry to ask, but can someone other than the clearly very-bothered individual who makes all of the airplane noise posts on this forum please chip in their perspectives on airplane noise in the Cabin John, Potomac, Glen Echo, Palisades neighborhoods? I was over there today and it didn't seem that bad.

Lived on a plane route once and it annoyed me. Lived not far from train tracks where I could hear trains in the distance. It didn’t bother me.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry to ask, but can someone other than the clearly very-bothered individual who makes all of the airplane noise posts on this forum please chip in their perspectives on airplane noise in the Cabin John, Potomac, Glen Echo, Palisades neighborhoods? I was over there today and it didn't seem that bad.

Lived on a plane route once and it annoyed me. Lived not far from train tracks where I could hear trains in the distance. It didn’t bother me.

Anonymous wrote:Sorry to ask, but can someone other than the clearly very-bothered individual who makes all of the airplane noise posts on this forum please chip in their perspectives on airplane noise in the Cabin John, Potomac, Glen Echo, Palisades neighborhoods? I was over there today and it didn't seem that bad.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People in thread are clinically OCD. You all need help. FYI, DARIC is being changed sometime next year, which should lower noise along the nicest part of Bethesda (GEH, GE), so thank god for that.

If you are indeed involved with changes in Montgomery County, why don't you give us a full account of what is happening. Area residents only ever heard about Palisades, but some of the most significant changes in southflow operations are in Montgomery County. Strangely, there was never anything in the news. Here's my summary (excuse the typos):

2016 - The FAA consolidates all the flight paths for arrivals located primarily in Virginia and moves them to the Potomac River and Montgomery County. The waypoint FERGI is moved to Potomac near Avenel Country Club. A Reagan National Community Noise Working Group (established in October 2015) votes in favor of the new approach procedure. Montgomery County is absent from the vote.

Montgomery County files a lawsuit against the FAA. The lawsuit is thrown out of court not because of merit but timeliness.

Potomac residents on the Noise Working Group ask the FAA to relocate FERGI further north to areas with less population density. The FAA rejects the idea as not being operationally viable. The FAA is then asked if it is possible for the arriving airplanes to start their final descent at DARIC in Glen Echo i.e. over the river instead of FERGI irrespective of population density.

Montgomery County hires an independent consultant to design a flight path for arrivals at DARIC. The consultant is asked to disperse the flights over Bethesda and Potomac in an effort to decrease channelization over FERGI. (TAA Concept refers to the dispersal).

The new design is submitted to the FAA for review and approval. Pages 16 & 17 show before and after.
https://www.flyreagan.com/sites/flyreagan.com/files/legacyfiles/post_abcx2_presentation_of_noa_recommendations_to_cwg_20210722.pdf

The FAA examines and amends the proposal submitted by MoCo by moving waypoint DARIC west (referred to as new Daric) and away from Glen Echo to make the flight path feasible.

2021 - 2024 - TAA (dispersal) is being tested in Montgomery County with about 10 percent of the fleet. Complaints from unsuspecting MoCo residents pour in to MWAA.

As part of the re-design, the Working Group gives the FAA the green light to introduce the GPS procedure for arrivals. The FAA has been seeking this approval for some time. The new flight path has lower weather minimums which means the inclement weather procedure (LDA-Z) does not have to be used as often.

2022 - The FAA presents to the Working Group the final design of the new flight path for arrivals. Concerns are raised that the new route is closer to communities in the District. The FAA responds that this is the only option. The key benefit of the new procedure for the Palisades is that in inclement weather there will be fewer overflights.
https://www.flyreagan.com/sites/flyreagan.com/files/2023-01/Final%20summary%2010-27-22%20DCA%20WG%20meeting%2050.pdf

In Montgomery County the plan is to expand TAA (dispersal) from 10 to 50 percent of the fleet and to begin the inclement weather procedure at DARIC instead of FERGI.

Also: The inclement weather procedure is temporarily suspended for several months. The runway is also being repaved which means fewer flights late at night and early in the morning until October 2024.

"Complaints from unsuspecting MoCo residents pour in"

Typical Montgomery County.....Keep the residents in the dark.

I can tell you that those who made inquiries by calling the airport directly were told that the FAA was behind all the changes and "there is nothing you can do about it".

The FAA is only responding to demands in this case.

There are numerous reports on other MOCO discussion forums or social media platforms from those who called the airport noise line only to be told that the FAA is the one responsible for the flight path change and the resulting increase in noise and nothing that it is the Community Working Group at DCA that pushed and voted for every single procedure change that took place in Montgomery County over the last 5 years.

Have the relationships between the FAA, MWAA and the community members on the DCA Working Group become too cozy?

Those phone conversations should be recorded for quality control. If the flight path changes have been so successful why hide the facts about who is behind them. There is no transparency with this group.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anybody watched the meeting last night? I heard somebody from McLean finally asked about the recent increase in noise.

Anybody who lives off GW Pkwy knows that most airplanes heading to DCA late at night are now being rerouted via NoVa just south of the river.

Montgomery County asked the FAA to scatter the arriving airplanes to clear the air over Potomac and that is what the FAA did. Many of those airplanes flying from the west are now over McLean.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like airplane noise, and seeing planes. It’s a bonus to be near an airport or flight path.

Until you get Stage 4 Pancreatic Cancer from inhaling Ultra Fine Particles for several years.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since Trump took over, I swear I’ve heard more flights out of Reagan than ever before- I don’t know if it’s New administration or mandatory return to office or what? Has anyone else noticed this?

I don't think so. I noticed just the opposite.

Where do you live?

We live in Kalorama