The School Board honored schools with teams winning VHSL state winter and spring athletic and academic championships last night:

Chantilly
Lake Braddock
Langley (4)
McLean (3)
Robinson
South Lakes (2)
West Springfield (3)

TJHSST was not among the schools recognized.

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Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.

It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.

They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.

Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.

A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.

And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.

The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.

I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.

I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.

The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315

Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.

I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.

I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:

https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028
It shows 16.36% disadvantaged (it used to be 2%).
I'm with you. If you want to discriminate based on wealth, that's fine. I think we all understand there is an inherent unearned advantage to wealth.
It would not be offensive to correct for that at least a bit.

As long as they use some sort of objective, standardized metric to assess foundational skills in the admissions process. SOL, Math Inventory, something. With rampant grade inflation, GPA is no longer a reliable certification of solid foundational skills. It is undoubtedly stressful for the TJ students who are failing their SOLs; those gaps should have been identified earlier.

I’d prefer not to see standardized tests added back to the process. There was a time that they were useful for identifying bright kids from families with fewer advantages, but that is unfortunately no longer true. The proliferation of test prep businesses has distorted the scores to the point where the tests become essentially of little to no worth to the TJ application process.

The new system is doing a good job of pulling in more kids from financially less advantaged families; let’s hope this trend continues and increases. The kids who need an opportunity like TJ are the kids from families who are not advantaged financially/educationally. Kids whose parents are well educated and financially comfortable will have no trouble doing well in this world. The kids whose parents didn’t go to college and have lower incomes are the ones for whom TJ can really make a difference.

Setting a minimum SOL pass level is not distortionary. It doesn't matter how many other students pass or how one passing score compares to another; it is just a question as to whether that one student has met minimum grade level proficiency. Determining that fact has large value; it signals if a student has gaps that need to be remediated. Admitting a student with significant gaps in grade level content is setting them up for a very challenging and stressful time at TJ.

PP looks at TJ as a charity while simultaneously implying that NOVA base high schools are some place that can’t make a difference. We are not in some extreme poverty stricken inner city school district. Every FCPS HS is sending kids to Top 20s etc… the same poor kid will be fine just like the same rich kid will be fine. These kids were already getting 3.9s and taking Algebra in MS.

The current system is identifying kids that can’t even take some classes at TJ and PP knows any test will reveal these discrepancies. The reputation of TJ is going to continue to slide and then the difference it makes will be what exactly? A kid went somewhere and took one or two unique science class and Calc AB?

Nonsense. TJ today is stronger than a few years ago when people were buying their way in. Today at least they choose the top students from these schools not just those who can afford to buy the test answers.

The ranking, SOLs, recidivism rate, remedial math participation all say different.
Who bought test answers? Test prep is not buying test answers. If Quant Q used the same test or test questions year after year, then FCPS should get its money back.

Paying $$$$ to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for a public school program.

DP

And that advantage can be eliminated by doing what every other standardized test does and not use the exact same questions over again.
Why the f0ck was fcps paying someone to use the same test questions over and over again? Was he somebody's cousin?

It’s more than the specific questions - even similar questions skew the results.

The issue here wasn’t the test; it was the ability of some wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.

The DEI been trying to malign objective measures of merit for a long time and for a brief shining moment in 2020 to 20223, they succeeded but then everyone realized that merit matters and now we are all going back to testing. if one of the arguments for getting rid of the TJ test was elimination of the test by top colleges, wouldn't the reintroduction of testing by these colleges indicate that TJ should do the same?

“The DEI”? It isn’t the boogeyman.

Public schools have different stakeholders and different objectives than top colleges.

The issue with the old admissions process for TJ, a public school magnet, was that it gave too much room for wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.

DEI is absolutely the problem here.
They didn't make the chabnges because of some testing advantage. They made the changes to achieve racial policy goals.
You already know this and keep pretending it was about test prep. You are convincing noone, not even yourself.

DEI is a good thing.

I never said it was just about test prep.

Here is what I said:

1. CHANGES TO TJ ADMISSIONS PROCESS
FCPS has changed the TJ admissions process multiple times over the years to address systemic inequalities.

https://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/files/8W9QET68F25B/$file/Changes%20to%20TJHSST%20Admissions%20Since%202004.pdf

https://www.fcag.org/tjadmissions.shtml

https://virginiamercury.com/2024/02/20/supreme-court-wont-hear-thomas-jefferson-admissions-case/

Before the most recent change, the class of 2024 had less than 1% (0.6%) of the students came from economically-disadvantaged families. There was also very little representation from the less affluent schools.



2. CONCERN ABOUT TJ PREP INDUSTRY
There was also public concern about the TJ test prep industry that led, in part, to changes in the admissions process. By reverse engineering the admissions criteria/process, prep companies offered kids an unfair advantage in admissions. In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-the-no-1-high-school-in-america-thomas-jefferson-fairfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”

This has all been discussed countless times on DCUM. Feel free to go read old threads for more details.

It was well known in my affluent area that you could greatly improve chances of admissions by paying $$$ for prep classes.



3. QUANT-Q DOESN’T RELEASE MATERIALS
The company that offers Quant-Q intentionally does NOT release materials to the public - it’s very different than SAT, ACT, etc. They want to “measure your natural ability”. And test takers agreed to not share any parts of the test.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-the-no-1-high-school-in-america-thomas-jefferson-fairfax-discrimination/
“The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”

Based on the NDAs, any test prep books or companies that obtain and share example quant-q test questions may have been unethically, or even potentially illegally, produced.

https://insightassessment.com/policies/
“Test Taker Interface User Agreement
In this agreement, each person who accesses this interface is called a “user,” and whatever a user accesses is called an “instrument.”
Copyright Protected: The user acknowledges that this online interface and everything in it are proprietary business property of the California Academic Press LLC and are protected by international copyrights. Except as permitted by purchased use licenses, the user agrees not to reproduce, distribute, hack, harm, limit, alter, or edit this interface or any part of any instrument or results report, table or analysis stored in, generated by, or delivered through this interface.

Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete Agreement: The user agrees not to copy, disclose, describe, imitate, replicate, or mirror this interface or this instrument(s) in whole or in part for any purpose. The user agrees not to create, design, develop, publish, market, or distribute any comparable or competitive instrument or instruments for a period of up to four years from the date of the user’s most recent access.


Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete Agreement
By accessing the Insight Assessment online testing interface or purchasing a preview pack or instrument use licenses, all clients acknowledge that the on-line interface and the testing instrument(s) it contains or displays include proprietary business information, such as but not limited to the structure of test questions or the presentation of those questions and other information displayed in conjunction with the use of this testing interface. In the absence of a specific written agreement between the client and Insight Assessment, the client agrees that by purchasing a preview pack or testing licenses, the client and their organization, shall not disclose, copy, or replicate this testing interface or this testing instrument(s) in whole or in part in comparable or competitive product or interface of any kind. In the absence of a specific written agreement between the client and Insight Assessment, the client agrees that by accessing the testing instrument(s) for any purpose, including but not limited to previewing the instrument(s), the client and the client’s organization shall not create, design, develop, publish, market, or distribute any comparable or competitive testing instrument(s).

By clicking the “Agree” button, the user acknowledges reading, understanding, and agreeing to abide by the statements above and by all the policies and notices posted on Insight Assessment public website(s).”


"Remember that the goal of a critical thinking assessment is to measure your natural ability to think critically, so there’s no need for extensive preparation. Just be yourself and approach the assessment with a clear mind."



4. TJ STUDENTS ACKNOWLEDGED UNFAIR ADVANTAGE
TH students and others have acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy.

https://www.tjtoday.org/29411/features/students-divided-on-proposed-changes-to-admissions-process/
“ “Personally, TJ admissions was not a challenge to navigate. I had a sibling who attended before me. However, a lot of resources needed to navigate admissions cost money. That is an unfair advantage given to more economically advantaged students,” junior Vivi Rao said. ”



5. TJ STUDENTS ADMIT SHARING QUANT-Q QUESTIONS
TJ students admitted both on DCUM and on Facebook, anonymously and with real name, that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents
Thread started July 11, 2020

I have screenshots but won’t share because they have student names on them.

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”




6. COURT RULED THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ASIAN STUDENTS
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf
Pg 7
“we are satisfied that the challenged admissions policy does not disparately impact Asian American students”

SCOTUS left ruling in place:
https://virginiamercury.com/2024/02/20/supreme-court-wont-hear-thomas-jefferson-admissions-case/



7. THE DATA BACKS THIS UP:

There are MORE Asian students at TJ since the admissions change than almost any other year in the school’s history.

Asian students still make up the majority of students. More than all other groups, combined.

And Asian students are still accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students (class of 25).

The number of Asian students enrolled at TJ by school year (fall):


The data also shows that Asian students were accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students.

Asian 19%
Black 14%
Hispanic 21%
White 17%
Multiracial/Other* 13%
ALL 18%



8. LOW-INCOME ASIAN STUDENTS BENEFITED THE MOST FROM CHANGES
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf
page 16
"Nevertheless, in the 2021 application cycle, Asian American students attending middle schools historically underrepresented at TJ saw a sixfold increase in offers, and the number of low-income Asian American admittees to TJ increased to 51 — from a mere one in 2020."

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.

It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.

They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.

Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.

A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.

And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.

The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.

I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.

I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.

The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315

Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.

I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.

I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:

https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028
It shows 16.36% disadvantaged (it used to be 2%).
I'm with you. If you want to discriminate based on wealth, that's fine. I think we all understand there is an inherent unearned advantage to wealth.
It would not be offensive to correct for that at least a bit.

As long as they use some sort of objective, standardized metric to assess foundational skills in the admissions process. SOL, Math Inventory, something. With rampant grade inflation, GPA is no longer a reliable certification of solid foundational skills. It is undoubtedly stressful for the TJ students who are failing their SOLs; those gaps should have been identified earlier.

I’d prefer not to see standardized tests added back to the process. There was a time that they were useful for identifying bright kids from families with fewer advantages, but that is unfortunately no longer true. The proliferation of test prep businesses has distorted the scores to the point where the tests become essentially of little to no worth to the TJ application process.

The new system is doing a good job of pulling in more kids from financially less advantaged families; let’s hope this trend continues and increases. The kids who need an opportunity like TJ are the kids from families who are not advantaged financially/educationally. Kids whose parents are well educated and financially comfortable will have no trouble doing well in this world. The kids whose parents didn’t go to college and have lower incomes are the ones for whom TJ can really make a difference.

Setting a minimum SOL pass level is not distortionary. It doesn't matter how many other students pass or how one passing score compares to another; it is just a question as to whether that one student has met minimum grade level proficiency. Determining that fact has large value; it signals if a student has gaps that need to be remediated. Admitting a student with significant gaps in grade level content is setting them up for a very challenging and stressful time at TJ.

PP looks at TJ as a charity while simultaneously implying that NOVA base high schools are some place that can’t make a difference. We are not in some extreme poverty stricken inner city school district. Every FCPS HS is sending kids to Top 20s etc… the same poor kid will be fine just like the same rich kid will be fine. These kids were already getting 3.9s and taking Algebra in MS.

The current system is identifying kids that can’t even take some classes at TJ and PP knows any test will reveal these discrepancies. The reputation of TJ is going to continue to slide and then the difference it makes will be what exactly? A kid went somewhere and took one or two unique science class and Calc AB?

Nonsense. TJ today is stronger than a few years ago when people were buying their way in. Today at least they choose the top students from these schools not just those who can afford to buy the test answers.

The ranking, SOLs, recidivism rate, remedial math participation all say different.
Who bought test answers? Test prep is not buying test answers. If Quant Q used the same test or test questions year after year, then FCPS should get its money back.

Paying $$$$ to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for a public school program.

DP

And that advantage can be eliminated by doing what every other standardized test does and not use the exact same questions over again.
Why the f0ck was fcps paying someone to use the same test questions over and over again? Was he somebody's cousin?

It’s more than the specific questions - even similar questions skew the results.

The issue here wasn’t the test; it was the ability of some wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.

Wouldn't the obvious solution be to use a test like the PSAT 8/9 or ACT Aspire, since both have ample free practice materials online? Wouldn't it also be to look at SOLs from 6th and 7th grade, to see which kids have obviously inflated GPAs?

Yes, the ideal solution is that it’s a test with publicly-available prep materials. Banning $$$$ prep would also help level the field.

How do you ban paid prep?
And what makes you think that it makes a difference?
This handwringing over the inequity of test prep is pretty nucking futz.

We know that wealthy students and poor students with the same sat score have almost identical college performance.
If the test scores of wealthy kids was artificially inflated by prep and didn't reflect real ability, you would expect poor kids to outperform wealthy kids if they had the same test score.
But that doesn't happen.

Look at how the test prep companies flaunt their outcomes.

There were almost no kids from low-income families at TJ before the change so there was no way to compare.

They introduces a preference for poor kids. 1/3 of the kids on free and reduced lunch got accepted compared to bout 17% admission rate overall. Before the poor kids almost never got in.
You can have a preference for poor kids and still maintain merit. The problem is that you would not be replacing asian kids with white/hispanic/black kids. You would be replacing asian AND white kids with mostly poor east asian kids and some poor hispanic and poor black kids. The school is likely to have gotten more asian

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.

It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.

They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.

Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.

A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.

And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.

The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.

I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.

I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.

The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315

Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.

I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.

I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:

https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028
It shows 16.36% disadvantaged (it used to be 2%).
I'm with you. If you want to discriminate based on wealth, that's fine. I think we all understand there is an inherent unearned advantage to wealth.
It would not be offensive to correct for that at least a bit.

As long as they use some sort of objective, standardized metric to assess foundational skills in the admissions process. SOL, Math Inventory, something. With rampant grade inflation, GPA is no longer a reliable certification of solid foundational skills. It is undoubtedly stressful for the TJ students who are failing their SOLs; those gaps should have been identified earlier.

I’d prefer not to see standardized tests added back to the process. There was a time that they were useful for identifying bright kids from families with fewer advantages, but that is unfortunately no longer true. The proliferation of test prep businesses has distorted the scores to the point where the tests become essentially of little to no worth to the TJ application process.

The new system is doing a good job of pulling in more kids from financially less advantaged families; let’s hope this trend continues and increases. The kids who need an opportunity like TJ are the kids from families who are not advantaged financially/educationally. Kids whose parents are well educated and financially comfortable will have no trouble doing well in this world. The kids whose parents didn’t go to college and have lower incomes are the ones for whom TJ can really make a difference.

Setting a minimum SOL pass level is not distortionary. It doesn't matter how many other students pass or how one passing score compares to another; it is just a question as to whether that one student has met minimum grade level proficiency. Determining that fact has large value; it signals if a student has gaps that need to be remediated. Admitting a student with significant gaps in grade level content is setting them up for a very challenging and stressful time at TJ.

PP looks at TJ as a charity while simultaneously implying that NOVA base high schools are some place that can’t make a difference. We are not in some extreme poverty stricken inner city school district. Every FCPS HS is sending kids to Top 20s etc… the same poor kid will be fine just like the same rich kid will be fine. These kids were already getting 3.9s and taking Algebra in MS.

The current system is identifying kids that can’t even take some classes at TJ and PP knows any test will reveal these discrepancies. The reputation of TJ is going to continue to slide and then the difference it makes will be what exactly? A kid went somewhere and took one or two unique science class and Calc AB?

Nonsense. TJ today is stronger than a few years ago when people were buying their way in. Today at least they choose the top students from these schools not just those who can afford to buy the test answers.

The ranking, SOLs, recidivism rate, remedial math participation all say different.
Who bought test answers? Test prep is not buying test answers. If Quant Q used the same test or test questions year after year, then FCPS should get its money back.

Paying $$$$ to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for a public school program.

DP

And that advantage can be eliminated by doing what every other standardized test does and not use the exact same questions over again.
Why the f0ck was fcps paying someone to use the same test questions over and over again? Was he somebody's cousin?

It’s more than the specific questions - even similar questions skew the results.

The issue here wasn’t the test; it was the ability of some wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.

The DEI been trying to malign objective measures of merit for a long time and for a brief shining moment in 2020 to 20223, they succeeded but then everyone realized that merit matters and now we are all going back to testing. if one of the arguments for getting rid of the TJ test was elimination of the test by top colleges, wouldn't the reintroduction of testing by these colleges indicate that TJ should do the same?

“The DEI”? It isn’t the boogeyman.

Public schools have different stakeholders and different objectives than top colleges.

The issue with the old admissions process for TJ, a public school magnet, was that it gave too much room for wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.

DEI is absolutely the problem here.
They didn't make the chabnges because of some testing advantage. They made the changes to achieve racial policy goals.
You already know this and keep pretending it was about test prep. You are convincing noone, not even yourself.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.

It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.

They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.

Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.

A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.

And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.

The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.

I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.

I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.

The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315

Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.

I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.

I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:

https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028
It shows 16.36% disadvantaged (it used to be 2%).
I'm with you. If you want to discriminate based on wealth, that's fine. I think we all understand there is an inherent unearned advantage to wealth.
It would not be offensive to correct for that at least a bit.

As long as they use some sort of objective, standardized metric to assess foundational skills in the admissions process. SOL, Math Inventory, something. With rampant grade inflation, GPA is no longer a reliable certification of solid foundational skills. It is undoubtedly stressful for the TJ students who are failing their SOLs; those gaps should have been identified earlier.

I’d prefer not to see standardized tests added back to the process. There was a time that they were useful for identifying bright kids from families with fewer advantages, but that is unfortunately no longer true. The proliferation of test prep businesses has distorted the scores to the point where the tests become essentially of little to no worth to the TJ application process.

The new system is doing a good job of pulling in more kids from financially less advantaged families; let’s hope this trend continues and increases. The kids who need an opportunity like TJ are the kids from families who are not advantaged financially/educationally. Kids whose parents are well educated and financially comfortable will have no trouble doing well in this world. The kids whose parents didn’t go to college and have lower incomes are the ones for whom TJ can really make a difference.

Setting a minimum SOL pass level is not distortionary. It doesn't matter how many other students pass or how one passing score compares to another; it is just a question as to whether that one student has met minimum grade level proficiency. Determining that fact has large value; it signals if a student has gaps that need to be remediated. Admitting a student with significant gaps in grade level content is setting them up for a very challenging and stressful time at TJ.

PP looks at TJ as a charity while simultaneously implying that NOVA base high schools are some place that can’t make a difference. We are not in some extreme poverty stricken inner city school district. Every FCPS HS is sending kids to Top 20s etc… the same poor kid will be fine just like the same rich kid will be fine. These kids were already getting 3.9s and taking Algebra in MS.

The current system is identifying kids that can’t even take some classes at TJ and PP knows any test will reveal these discrepancies. The reputation of TJ is going to continue to slide and then the difference it makes will be what exactly? A kid went somewhere and took one or two unique science class and Calc AB?

Nonsense. TJ today is stronger than a few years ago when people were buying their way in. Today at least they choose the top students from these schools not just those who can afford to buy the test answers.

The ranking, SOLs, recidivism rate, remedial math participation all say different.
Who bought test answers? Test prep is not buying test answers. If Quant Q used the same test or test questions year after year, then FCPS should get its money back.

Paying $$$$ to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for a public school program.

DP

And that advantage can be eliminated by doing what every other standardized test does and not use the exact same questions over again.
Why the f0ck was fcps paying someone to use the same test questions over and over again? Was he somebody's cousin?

It’s more than the specific questions - even similar questions skew the results.

The issue here wasn’t the test; it was the ability of some wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.

The DEI been trying to malign objective measures of merit for a long time and for a brief shining moment in 2020 to 20223, they succeeded but then everyone realized that merit matters and now we are all going back to testing. if one of the arguments for getting rid of the TJ test was elimination of the test by top colleges, wouldn't the reintroduction of testing by these colleges indicate that TJ should do the same?

I think that's why the current process which uses objective measures like standardized test scores and grades in a race blind selection is so good compared to the test which wealthy families were able to buy access.

What standardized test scores?
They eliminated testing for TJ admissions.

Anonymous wrote:The one area TJ is stronger now that few years ago is Remedial support.

+1. LOL.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.

It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.

They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.

Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.

A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.

And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.

The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.

I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.

I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.

The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315

Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.

I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.

I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:

https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028
It shows 16.36% disadvantaged (it used to be 2%).
I'm with you. If you want to discriminate based on wealth, that's fine. I think we all understand there is an inherent unearned advantage to wealth.
It would not be offensive to correct for that at least a bit.

As long as they use some sort of objective, standardized metric to assess foundational skills in the admissions process. SOL, Math Inventory, something. With rampant grade inflation, GPA is no longer a reliable certification of solid foundational skills. It is undoubtedly stressful for the TJ students who are failing their SOLs; those gaps should have been identified earlier.

I’d prefer not to see standardized tests added back to the process. There was a time that they were useful for identifying bright kids from families with fewer advantages, but that is unfortunately no longer true. The proliferation of test prep businesses has distorted the scores to the point where the tests become essentially of little to no worth to the TJ application process.

The new system is doing a good job of pulling in more kids from financially less advantaged families; let’s hope this trend continues and increases. The kids who need an opportunity like TJ are the kids from families who are not advantaged financially/educationally. Kids whose parents are well educated and financially comfortable will have no trouble doing well in this world. The kids whose parents didn’t go to college and have lower incomes are the ones for whom TJ can really make a difference.

Setting a minimum SOL pass level is not distortionary. It doesn't matter how many other students pass or how one passing score compares to another; it is just a question as to whether that one student has met minimum grade level proficiency. Determining that fact has large value; it signals if a student has gaps that need to be remediated. Admitting a student with significant gaps in grade level content is setting them up for a very challenging and stressful time at TJ.

PP looks at TJ as a charity while simultaneously implying that NOVA base high schools are some place that can’t make a difference. We are not in some extreme poverty stricken inner city school district. Every FCPS HS is sending kids to Top 20s etc… the same poor kid will be fine just like the same rich kid will be fine. These kids were already getting 3.9s and taking Algebra in MS.

The current system is identifying kids that can’t even take some classes at TJ and PP knows any test will reveal these discrepancies. The reputation of TJ is going to continue to slide and then the difference it makes will be what exactly? A kid went somewhere and took one or two unique science class and Calc AB?

Nonsense. TJ today is stronger than a few years ago when people were buying their way in. Today at least they choose the top students from these schools not just those who can afford to buy the test answers.

The ranking, SOLs, recidivism rate, remedial math participation all say different.
Who bought test answers? Test prep is not buying test answers. If Quant Q used the same test or test questions year after year, then FCPS should get its money back.

Paying $$$$ to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for a public school program.

DP

And that advantage can be eliminated by doing what every other standardized test does and not use the exact same questions over again.
Why the f0ck was fcps paying someone to use the same test questions over and over again? Was he somebody's cousin?

It’s more than the specific questions - even similar questions skew the results.

The issue here wasn’t the test; it was the ability of some wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.

The DEI been trying to malign objective measures of merit for a long time and for a brief shining moment in 2020 to 20223, they succeeded but then everyone realized that merit matters and now we are all going back to testing. if one of the arguments for getting rid of the TJ test was elimination of the test by top colleges, wouldn't the reintroduction of testing by these colleges indicate that TJ should do the same?

I think that's why the current process which uses objective measures like standardized test scores and grades in a race blind selection is so good compared to the test which wealthy families were able to buy access.

You're misinformed. The current process doesn't use standardized test scores. The selection is mostly based on essays. Additionally, experience factors are worth a huge number of points, so any kid who is FARMS, ESOL, or has an IEP gets a bunch of bonus points.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.

It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.

They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.

Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.

A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.

And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.

The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.

I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.

I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.

The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315

Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.

I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.

I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:

https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028
It shows 16.36% disadvantaged (it used to be 2%).
I'm with you. If you want to discriminate based on wealth, that's fine. I think we all understand there is an inherent unearned advantage to wealth.
It would not be offensive to correct for that at least a bit.

As long as they use some sort of objective, standardized metric to assess foundational skills in the admissions process. SOL, Math Inventory, something. With rampant grade inflation, GPA is no longer a reliable certification of solid foundational skills. It is undoubtedly stressful for the TJ students who are failing their SOLs; those gaps should have been identified earlier.

I’d prefer not to see standardized tests added back to the process. There was a time that they were useful for identifying bright kids from families with fewer advantages, but that is unfortunately no longer true. The proliferation of test prep businesses has distorted the scores to the point where the tests become essentially of little to no worth to the TJ application process.

The new system is doing a good job of pulling in more kids from financially less advantaged families; let’s hope this trend continues and increases. The kids who need an opportunity like TJ are the kids from families who are not advantaged financially/educationally. Kids whose parents are well educated and financially comfortable will have no trouble doing well in this world. The kids whose parents didn’t go to college and have lower incomes are the ones for whom TJ can really make a difference.

Setting a minimum SOL pass level is not distortionary. It doesn't matter how many other students pass or how one passing score compares to another; it is just a question as to whether that one student has met minimum grade level proficiency. Determining that fact has large value; it signals if a student has gaps that need to be remediated. Admitting a student with significant gaps in grade level content is setting them up for a very challenging and stressful time at TJ.

PP looks at TJ as a charity while simultaneously implying that NOVA base high schools are some place that can’t make a difference. We are not in some extreme poverty stricken inner city school district. Every FCPS HS is sending kids to Top 20s etc… the same poor kid will be fine just like the same rich kid will be fine. These kids were already getting 3.9s and taking Algebra in MS.

The current system is identifying kids that can’t even take some classes at TJ and PP knows any test will reveal these discrepancies. The reputation of TJ is going to continue to slide and then the difference it makes will be what exactly? A kid went somewhere and took one or two unique science class and Calc AB?

Nonsense. TJ today is stronger than a few years ago when people were buying their way in. Today at least they choose the top students from these schools not just those who can afford to buy the test answers.

The ranking, SOLs, recidivism rate, remedial math participation all say different.
Who bought test answers? Test prep is not buying test answers. If Quant Q used the same test or test questions year after year, then FCPS should get its money back.

Paying $$$$ to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for a public school program.

DP

And that advantage can be eliminated by doing what every other standardized test does and not use the exact same questions over again.
Why the f0ck was fcps paying someone to use the same test questions over and over again? Was he somebody's cousin?

It’s more than the specific questions - even similar questions skew the results.

The issue here wasn’t the test; it was the ability of some wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.

Wouldn't the obvious solution be to use a test like the PSAT 8/9 or ACT Aspire, since both have ample free practice materials online? Wouldn't it also be to look at SOLs from 6th and 7th grade, to see which kids have obviously inflated GPAs?

Yes, the ideal solution is that it’s a test with publicly-available prep materials. Banning $$$$ prep would also help level the field.

How do you ban paid prep?
And what makes you think that it makes a difference?
This handwringing over the inequity of test prep is pretty nucking futz.

We know that wealthy students and poor students with the same sat score have almost identical college performance.
If the test scores of wealthy kids was artificially inflated by prep and didn't reflect real ability, you would expect poor kids to outperform wealthy kids if they had the same test score.
But that doesn't happen.

Look at how the test prep companies flaunt their outcomes.

There were almost no kids from low-income families at TJ before the change so there was no way to compare.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.

It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.

They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.

Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.

A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.

And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.

The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.

I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.

I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.

The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315

Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.

I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.

I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:

https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028
It shows 16.36% disadvantaged (it used to be 2%).
I'm with you. If you want to discriminate based on wealth, that's fine. I think we all understand there is an inherent unearned advantage to wealth.
It would not be offensive to correct for that at least a bit.

As long as they use some sort of objective, standardized metric to assess foundational skills in the admissions process. SOL, Math Inventory, something. With rampant grade inflation, GPA is no longer a reliable certification of solid foundational skills. It is undoubtedly stressful for the TJ students who are failing their SOLs; those gaps should have been identified earlier.

I’d prefer not to see standardized tests added back to the process. There was a time that they were useful for identifying bright kids from families with fewer advantages, but that is unfortunately no longer true. The proliferation of test prep businesses has distorted the scores to the point where the tests become essentially of little to no worth to the TJ application process.

The new system is doing a good job of pulling in more kids from financially less advantaged families; let’s hope this trend continues and increases. The kids who need an opportunity like TJ are the kids from families who are not advantaged financially/educationally. Kids whose parents are well educated and financially comfortable will have no trouble doing well in this world. The kids whose parents didn’t go to college and have lower incomes are the ones for whom TJ can really make a difference.

Setting a minimum SOL pass level is not distortionary. It doesn't matter how many other students pass or how one passing score compares to another; it is just a question as to whether that one student has met minimum grade level proficiency. Determining that fact has large value; it signals if a student has gaps that need to be remediated. Admitting a student with significant gaps in grade level content is setting them up for a very challenging and stressful time at TJ.

PP looks at TJ as a charity while simultaneously implying that NOVA base high schools are some place that can’t make a difference. We are not in some extreme poverty stricken inner city school district. Every FCPS HS is sending kids to Top 20s etc… the same poor kid will be fine just like the same rich kid will be fine. These kids were already getting 3.9s and taking Algebra in MS.

The current system is identifying kids that can’t even take some classes at TJ and PP knows any test will reveal these discrepancies. The reputation of TJ is going to continue to slide and then the difference it makes will be what exactly? A kid went somewhere and took one or two unique science class and Calc AB?

Nonsense. TJ today is stronger than a few years ago when people were buying their way in. Today at least they choose the top students from these schools not just those who can afford to buy the test answers.

The ranking, SOLs, recidivism rate, remedial math participation all say different.
Who bought test answers? Test prep is not buying test answers. If Quant Q used the same test or test questions year after year, then FCPS should get its money back.

Paying $$$$ to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for a public school program.

DP

And that advantage can be eliminated by doing what every other standardized test does and not use the exact same questions over again.
Why the f0ck was fcps paying someone to use the same test questions over and over again? Was he somebody's cousin?

It’s more than the specific questions - even similar questions skew the results.

The issue here wasn’t the test; it was the ability of some wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.

The DEI been trying to malign objective measures of merit for a long time and for a brief shining moment in 2020 to 20223, they succeeded but then everyone realized that merit matters and now we are all going back to testing. if one of the arguments for getting rid of the TJ test was elimination of the test by top colleges, wouldn't the reintroduction of testing by these colleges indicate that TJ should do the same?

“The DEI”? It isn’t the boogeyman.

Public schools have different stakeholders and different objectives than top colleges.

The issue with the old admissions process for TJ, a public school magnet, was that it gave too much room for wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.

It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.

They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.

Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.

A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.

And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.

The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.

I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.

I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.

The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315

Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.

I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.

I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:

https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028
It shows 16.36% disadvantaged (it used to be 2%).
I'm with you. If you want to discriminate based on wealth, that's fine. I think we all understand there is an inherent unearned advantage to wealth.
It would not be offensive to correct for that at least a bit.

As long as they use some sort of objective, standardized metric to assess foundational skills in the admissions process. SOL, Math Inventory, something. With rampant grade inflation, GPA is no longer a reliable certification of solid foundational skills. It is undoubtedly stressful for the TJ students who are failing their SOLs; those gaps should have been identified earlier.

I’d prefer not to see standardized tests added back to the process. There was a time that they were useful for identifying bright kids from families with fewer advantages, but that is unfortunately no longer true. The proliferation of test prep businesses has distorted the scores to the point where the tests become essentially of little to no worth to the TJ application process.

The new system is doing a good job of pulling in more kids from financially less advantaged families; let’s hope this trend continues and increases. The kids who need an opportunity like TJ are the kids from families who are not advantaged financially/educationally. Kids whose parents are well educated and financially comfortable will have no trouble doing well in this world. The kids whose parents didn’t go to college and have lower incomes are the ones for whom TJ can really make a difference.

Setting a minimum SOL pass level is not distortionary. It doesn't matter how many other students pass or how one passing score compares to another; it is just a question as to whether that one student has met minimum grade level proficiency. Determining that fact has large value; it signals if a student has gaps that need to be remediated. Admitting a student with significant gaps in grade level content is setting them up for a very challenging and stressful time at TJ.

PP looks at TJ as a charity while simultaneously implying that NOVA base high schools are some place that can’t make a difference. We are not in some extreme poverty stricken inner city school district. Every FCPS HS is sending kids to Top 20s etc… the same poor kid will be fine just like the same rich kid will be fine. These kids were already getting 3.9s and taking Algebra in MS.

The current system is identifying kids that can’t even take some classes at TJ and PP knows any test will reveal these discrepancies. The reputation of TJ is going to continue to slide and then the difference it makes will be what exactly? A kid went somewhere and took one or two unique science class and Calc AB?

Nonsense. TJ today is stronger than a few years ago when people were buying their way in. Today at least they choose the top students from these schools not just those who can afford to buy the test answers.

The ranking, SOLs, recidivism rate, remedial math participation all say different.
Who bought test answers? Test prep is not buying test answers. If Quant Q used the same test or test questions year after year, then FCPS should get its money back.

Paying $$$$ to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for a public school program.

DP

And that advantage can be eliminated by doing what every other standardized test does and not use the exact same questions over again.
Why the f0ck was fcps paying someone to use the same test questions over and over again? Was he somebody's cousin?

It’s more than the specific questions - even similar questions skew the results.

The issue here wasn’t the test; it was the ability of some wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.

The DEI been trying to malign objective measures of merit for a long time and for a brief shining moment in 2020 to 20223, they succeeded but then everyone realized that merit matters and now we are all going back to testing. if one of the arguments for getting rid of the TJ test was elimination of the test by top colleges, wouldn't the reintroduction of testing by these colleges indicate that TJ should do the same?

I think that's why the current process which uses objective measures like standardized test scores and grades in a race blind selection is so good compared to the test which wealthy families were able to buy access.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.

It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.

They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.

Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.

A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.

And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.

The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.

I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.

I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.

The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315

Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.

I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.

I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:

https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028
It shows 16.36% disadvantaged (it used to be 2%).
I'm with you. If you want to discriminate based on wealth, that's fine. I think we all understand there is an inherent unearned advantage to wealth.
It would not be offensive to correct for that at least a bit.

As long as they use some sort of objective, standardized metric to assess foundational skills in the admissions process. SOL, Math Inventory, something. With rampant grade inflation, GPA is no longer a reliable certification of solid foundational skills. It is undoubtedly stressful for the TJ students who are failing their SOLs; those gaps should have been identified earlier.

I’d prefer not to see standardized tests added back to the process. There was a time that they were useful for identifying bright kids from families with fewer advantages, but that is unfortunately no longer true. The proliferation of test prep businesses has distorted the scores to the point where the tests become essentially of little to no worth to the TJ application process.

The new system is doing a good job of pulling in more kids from financially less advantaged families; let’s hope this trend continues and increases. The kids who need an opportunity like TJ are the kids from families who are not advantaged financially/educationally. Kids whose parents are well educated and financially comfortable will have no trouble doing well in this world. The kids whose parents didn’t go to college and have lower incomes are the ones for whom TJ can really make a difference.

Setting a minimum SOL pass level is not distortionary. It doesn't matter how many other students pass or how one passing score compares to another; it is just a question as to whether that one student has met minimum grade level proficiency. Determining that fact has large value; it signals if a student has gaps that need to be remediated. Admitting a student with significant gaps in grade level content is setting them up for a very challenging and stressful time at TJ.

PP looks at TJ as a charity while simultaneously implying that NOVA base high schools are some place that can’t make a difference. We are not in some extreme poverty stricken inner city school district. Every FCPS HS is sending kids to Top 20s etc… the same poor kid will be fine just like the same rich kid will be fine. These kids were already getting 3.9s and taking Algebra in MS.

The current system is identifying kids that can’t even take some classes at TJ and PP knows any test will reveal these discrepancies. The reputation of TJ is going to continue to slide and then the difference it makes will be what exactly? A kid went somewhere and took one or two unique science class and Calc AB?

Nonsense. TJ today is stronger than a few years ago when people were buying their way in. Today at least they choose the top students from these schools not just those who can afford to buy the test answers.

Anyone looking at the data would have to agree. In fact, the only people who will even argue this are those who would have us returned to the rigged corrupt previous system.

Or anyone that believed in merit.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.

It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.

They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.

Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.

A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.

And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.

The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.

I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.

I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.

The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315

Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.

I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.

I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:

https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028
It shows 16.36% disadvantaged (it used to be 2%).
I'm with you. If you want to discriminate based on wealth, that's fine. I think we all understand there is an inherent unearned advantage to wealth.
It would not be offensive to correct for that at least a bit.

As long as they use some sort of objective, standardized metric to assess foundational skills in the admissions process. SOL, Math Inventory, something. With rampant grade inflation, GPA is no longer a reliable certification of solid foundational skills. It is undoubtedly stressful for the TJ students who are failing their SOLs; those gaps should have been identified earlier.

I’d prefer not to see standardized tests added back to the process. There was a time that they were useful for identifying bright kids from families with fewer advantages, but that is unfortunately no longer true. The proliferation of test prep businesses has distorted the scores to the point where the tests become essentially of little to no worth to the TJ application process.

The new system is doing a good job of pulling in more kids from financially less advantaged families; let’s hope this trend continues and increases. The kids who need an opportunity like TJ are the kids from families who are not advantaged financially/educationally. Kids whose parents are well educated and financially comfortable will have no trouble doing well in this world. The kids whose parents didn’t go to college and have lower incomes are the ones for whom TJ can really make a difference.

Setting a minimum SOL pass level is not distortionary. It doesn't matter how many other students pass or how one passing score compares to another; it is just a question as to whether that one student has met minimum grade level proficiency. Determining that fact has large value; it signals if a student has gaps that need to be remediated. Admitting a student with significant gaps in grade level content is setting them up for a very challenging and stressful time at TJ.

PP looks at TJ as a charity while simultaneously implying that NOVA base high schools are some place that can’t make a difference. We are not in some extreme poverty stricken inner city school district. Every FCPS HS is sending kids to Top 20s etc… the same poor kid will be fine just like the same rich kid will be fine. These kids were already getting 3.9s and taking Algebra in MS.

The current system is identifying kids that can’t even take some classes at TJ and PP knows any test will reveal these discrepancies. The reputation of TJ is going to continue to slide and then the difference it makes will be what exactly? A kid went somewhere and took one or two unique science class and Calc AB?

Nonsense. TJ today is stronger than a few years ago when people were buying their way in. Today at least they choose the top students from these schools not just those who can afford to buy the test answers.

The ranking, SOLs, recidivism rate, remedial math participation all say different.
Who bought test answers? Test prep is not buying test answers. If Quant Q used the same test or test questions year after year, then FCPS should get its money back.

Paying $$$$ to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for a public school program.

DP

And that advantage can be eliminated by doing what every other standardized test does and not use the exact same questions over again.
Why the f0ck was fcps paying someone to use the same test questions over and over again? Was he somebody's cousin?

It’s more than the specific questions - even similar questions skew the results.

The issue here wasn’t the test; it was the ability of some wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.

Wouldn't the obvious solution be to use a test like the PSAT 8/9 or ACT Aspire, since both have ample free practice materials online? Wouldn't it also be to look at SOLs from 6th and 7th grade, to see which kids have obviously inflated GPAs?

Yes, the ideal solution is that it’s a test with publicly-available prep materials. Banning $$$$ prep would also help level the field.

How do you ban paid prep?
And what makes you think that it makes a difference?
This handwringing over the inequity of test prep is pretty nucking futz.

We know that wealthy students and poor students with the same sat score have almost identical college performance.
If the test scores of wealthy kids was artificially inflated by prep and didn't reflect real ability, you would expect poor kids to outperform wealthy kids if they had the same test score.
But that doesn't happen.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.

It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.

They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.

Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.

A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.

And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.

The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.

I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.

I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.

The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315

Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.

I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.

I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:

https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028
It shows 16.36% disadvantaged (it used to be 2%).
I'm with you. If you want to discriminate based on wealth, that's fine. I think we all understand there is an inherent unearned advantage to wealth.
It would not be offensive to correct for that at least a bit.

As long as they use some sort of objective, standardized metric to assess foundational skills in the admissions process. SOL, Math Inventory, something. With rampant grade inflation, GPA is no longer a reliable certification of solid foundational skills. It is undoubtedly stressful for the TJ students who are failing their SOLs; those gaps should have been identified earlier.

I’d prefer not to see standardized tests added back to the process. There was a time that they were useful for identifying bright kids from families with fewer advantages, but that is unfortunately no longer true. The proliferation of test prep businesses has distorted the scores to the point where the tests become essentially of little to no worth to the TJ application process.

The new system is doing a good job of pulling in more kids from financially less advantaged families; let’s hope this trend continues and increases. The kids who need an opportunity like TJ are the kids from families who are not advantaged financially/educationally. Kids whose parents are well educated and financially comfortable will have no trouble doing well in this world. The kids whose parents didn’t go to college and have lower incomes are the ones for whom TJ can really make a difference.

Setting a minimum SOL pass level is not distortionary. It doesn't matter how many other students pass or how one passing score compares to another; it is just a question as to whether that one student has met minimum grade level proficiency. Determining that fact has large value; it signals if a student has gaps that need to be remediated. Admitting a student with significant gaps in grade level content is setting them up for a very challenging and stressful time at TJ.

PP looks at TJ as a charity while simultaneously implying that NOVA base high schools are some place that can’t make a difference. We are not in some extreme poverty stricken inner city school district. Every FCPS HS is sending kids to Top 20s etc… the same poor kid will be fine just like the same rich kid will be fine. These kids were already getting 3.9s and taking Algebra in MS.

The current system is identifying kids that can’t even take some classes at TJ and PP knows any test will reveal these discrepancies. The reputation of TJ is going to continue to slide and then the difference it makes will be what exactly? A kid went somewhere and took one or two unique science class and Calc AB?

Nonsense. TJ today is stronger than a few years ago when people were buying their way in. Today at least they choose the top students from these schools not just those who can afford to buy the test answers.

The ranking, SOLs, recidivism rate, remedial math participation all say different.
Who bought test answers? Test prep is not buying test answers. If Quant Q used the same test or test questions year after year, then FCPS should get its money back.

Paying $$$$ to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for a public school program.

DP

And that advantage can be eliminated by doing what every other standardized test does and not use the exact same questions over again.
Why the f0ck was fcps paying someone to use the same test questions over and over again? Was he somebody's cousin?

It’s more than the specific questions - even similar questions skew the results.

The issue here wasn’t the test; it was the ability of some wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.

The DEI been trying to malign objective measures of merit for a long time and for a brief shining moment in 2020 to 20223, they succeeded but then everyone realized that merit matters and now we are all going back to testing. if one of the arguments for getting rid of the TJ test was elimination of the test by top colleges, wouldn't the reintroduction of testing by these colleges indicate that TJ should do the same?

The one area TJ is stronger now that few years ago is Remedial support.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.

It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.

They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.

Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.

A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.

And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.

The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.

I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.

I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.

The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315

Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.

I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.

I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:

https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028
It shows 16.36% disadvantaged (it used to be 2%).
I'm with you. If you want to discriminate based on wealth, that's fine. I think we all understand there is an inherent unearned advantage to wealth.
It would not be offensive to correct for that at least a bit.

As long as they use some sort of objective, standardized metric to assess foundational skills in the admissions process. SOL, Math Inventory, something. With rampant grade inflation, GPA is no longer a reliable certification of solid foundational skills. It is undoubtedly stressful for the TJ students who are failing their SOLs; those gaps should have been identified earlier.

I’d prefer not to see standardized tests added back to the process. There was a time that they were useful for identifying bright kids from families with fewer advantages, but that is unfortunately no longer true. The proliferation of test prep businesses has distorted the scores to the point where the tests become essentially of little to no worth to the TJ application process.

The new system is doing a good job of pulling in more kids from financially less advantaged families; let’s hope this trend continues and increases. The kids who need an opportunity like TJ are the kids from families who are not advantaged financially/educationally. Kids whose parents are well educated and financially comfortable will have no trouble doing well in this world. The kids whose parents didn’t go to college and have lower incomes are the ones for whom TJ can really make a difference.

Setting a minimum SOL pass level is not distortionary. It doesn't matter how many other students pass or how one passing score compares to another; it is just a question as to whether that one student has met minimum grade level proficiency. Determining that fact has large value; it signals if a student has gaps that need to be remediated. Admitting a student with significant gaps in grade level content is setting them up for a very challenging and stressful time at TJ.

PP looks at TJ as a charity while simultaneously implying that NOVA base high schools are some place that can’t make a difference. We are not in some extreme poverty stricken inner city school district. Every FCPS HS is sending kids to Top 20s etc… the same poor kid will be fine just like the same rich kid will be fine. These kids were already getting 3.9s and taking Algebra in MS.

The current system is identifying kids that can’t even take some classes at TJ and PP knows any test will reveal these discrepancies. The reputation of TJ is going to continue to slide and then the difference it makes will be what exactly? A kid went somewhere and took one or two unique science class and Calc AB?

Nonsense. TJ today is stronger than a few years ago when people were buying their way in. Today at least they choose the top students from these schools not just those who can afford to buy the test answers.

Anyone looking at the data would have to agree. In fact, the only people who will even argue this are those who would have us returned to the rigged corrupt previous system.