Anonymous wrote:Holy crap, the cops recovered 500 rounds of ammo from the set. These people were doomed. So sad. https://samsung.tribunecontentagency.com/2021/10/27/sheriff-lead-bullet-fatally-struck-rust-cinematographer-500-rounds-of-ammo-recovered-on-set-2/

All from "anti-gun" Libs. Their hypocrisy is jolting.
Wake up, y'all.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The argument is going in circles but some of these analogies are just not on point. I can make up others for the other side.

" I can't go to court and say, "my buddy told me it was unloaded right before I killed that person" and be let off the hook."

The AD wasn't AB's "buddy." It was part of his job to check the gun and he has admitted he didn't do it right.

Say someone went to a firing range for a lesson. He was paying for the lesson. The firing range hired the instructor. The instructor checked the gun and told the student it was empty and they were just going to practice first without using ammunition. The student pulled the trigger--we don't know if AB did--and the gun was loaded and someone got hurt.

Are you still going to hold the student responsible?

That would never happen because the first thing the tell you at any gun range is you are the person responsible for the gun, then they teach you how to check. That's the point people are missing. You can claim it is someone elses job, but the final check is the responsibility of the person with the gun, actor or not. Like posted before, if someone shot AB and tried to blame another person, this thread would be arguing the other side

The one who pulled the trigger and killed Brandon Lee wasn't blamed, then or now.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/d-a-announces-negligence-caused-brandon-lees-death

.45 caliber is a large bullet. Being shot at close range in the stomach? Not a survivable wound.

Anonymous wrote:The argument is going in circles but some of these analogies are just not on point. I can make up others for the other side.

" I can't go to court and say, "my buddy told me it was unloaded right before I killed that person" and be let off the hook."

The AD wasn't AB's "buddy." It was part of his job to check the gun and he has admitted he didn't do it right.

Say someone went to a firing range for a lesson. He was paying for the lesson. The firing range hired the instructor. The instructor checked the gun and told the student it was empty and they were just going to practice first without using ammunition. The student pulled the trigger--we don't know if AB did--and the gun was loaded and someone got hurt.

Are you still going to hold the student responsible?

That would never happen because the first thing the tell you at any gun range is you are the person responsible for the gun, then they teach you how to check. That's the point people are missing. You can claim it is someone elses job, but the final check is the responsibility of the person with the gun, actor or not. Like posted before, if someone shot AB and tried to blame another person, this thread would be arguing the other side

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that if Alec isn't at fault, the AD can't be at fault either. It's either one or all of them. But it doesn't make sense to me that Alec gets a pass on his safety infractions but the AD doesn't.

That said, I'm looking forward to hearing what the cops decide and I trust their judgment to assess the facts and assign blame.

I do think that movie sets are too dangerous, after hearing about all of this and the fact that it's normal to point guns at people and pull triggers. That's got to stop.

This is 2021 and the last time an actor was shot and killed on set was in 1993.

What is your definition of "too dangerous"?

Here is a list of injuries and deaths during filming. What does this say to you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_film_and_television_accidents

I think it's dangerous because of the culture. On this thread and elsewhere, people are saying that playing fast and loose with things like guns is fine because it's for a movie. That's not fine, in my opinion. I don't think we need to endanger people or ignore safety for movies. I have family that works on sets and I didn't realize this was the attitude and I don't like it.

Holy crap, the cops recovered 500 rounds of ammo from the set. These people were doomed. So sad. https://samsung.tribunecontentagency.com/2021/10/27/sheriff-lead-bullet-fatally-struck-rust-cinematographer-500-rounds-of-ammo-recovered-on-set-2/

"Here, so you dont need to click"....

That's not what I asked for. I asked if there were any links to a statement or affidavit by Baldwin in which he ADMITTED he pulled the trigger. I haven't seen anything in which he did. (I am not saying he didn't--only that I haven't seen anything in which Baldwin admitted it.) The post I asked about says "Baldwin says"...he pulled the trigger.

I haven't seen any statements by eyewitnesses saying they saw Baldwin pull the trigger either but that's a different issue.

The argument is going in circles but some of these analogies are just not on point. I can make up others for the other side.

" I can't go to court and say, "my buddy told me it was unloaded right before I killed that person" and be let off the hook."

The AD wasn't AB's "buddy." It was part of his job to check the gun and he has admitted he didn't do it right.

Say someone went to a firing range for a lesson. He was paying for the lesson. The firing range hired the instructor. The instructor checked the gun and told the student it was empty and they were just going to practice first without using ammunition. The student pulled the trigger--we don't know if AB did--and the gun was loaded and someone got hurt.

Are you still going to hold the student responsible?

Anonymous wrote:More from the NY Times

"Mr. Baldwin then began rehearsing a scene that involved “cross drawing” the revolver and pointing it toward the camera lens, according to the affidavit, when the gun went off."

I sure don't see an admission that he pulled the trigger. Can the PP above who claims that AB said he pulled the trigger link to something non-right wing that says he did?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arts-entertainment/2021/10/22/alec-baldwin-shooting/

Here, so you dont need to click

Before Alec Baldwin pulled the trigger on a prop gun, fatally shooting cinematographer Halyna Hutchins, the weapon passed through the hands of two other people on set: the firearms specialist and an assistant director....

Or the "right wing" NPR....

https://www.npr.org/2021/10/23/1048750191/rust-alec-baldwin-set-shooting

When Baldwin pulled the trigger, he unwittingly killed 42-year-old cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and wounded director Joel Souza, who was standing behind her inside a wooden, chapel-like building......

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reality is that the only reason people are talking about this is because Alec was holding the gun. If this shooting had been at the hand of a random extra it would have been news for an afternoon. TBH I’m more upset about the shooting of children in our streets.

Maybe. The shooting of Brandon Lee is the only similar incident and it's still remembered and talked about. But people die during filming, most often stunt doubles in accidents and they are not noticed or remembered.

Any time a major celebrity dies unexpectedly or kills someone it’s huge news. Look at Paul Walker and yes - Brandon Lee. Neither of them were as big of a star as Alec Baldwin is AND he killed someone. Until the local prosecution says Alec won’t be charged, and even after because he will have to testify at the trial, this will be huge news.

Also weird but I can’t recall another famous actor who has killed someone or been charged with murder. Can you? Natalie Wood in 1981? But I don’t think her husband Robert Wagner was ever charged?

The person holding the gun when it goes off is ultimately responsible for what happens.

NO ONE should be let off the hook because they relied on someone else to check to see if the gun is safe. Had this been ANYONE in the "real" world that this happened to, the person holding the gun is responsible for that death and that injury. I can't go to court and say, "my buddy told me it was unloaded right before I killed that person" and be let off the hook.

Maybe if it was reported! It should be.

Anonymous wrote:The reality is that the only reason people are talking about this is because Alec was holding the gun. If this shooting had been at the hand of a random extra it would have been news for an afternoon. TBH I’m more upset about the shooting of children in our streets.

Maybe. The shooting of Brandon Lee is the only similar incident and it's still remembered and talked about. But people die during filming, most often stunt doubles in accidents and they are not noticed or remembered.

The reality is that the only reason people are talking about this is because Alec was holding the gun. If this shooting had been at the hand of a random extra it would have been news for an afternoon. TBH I’m more upset about the shooting of children in our streets.

Anonymous wrote:All of those so quick to post, from the anonymous safety of your homes...do you speak up when you see something wrong in your work place?

Because it sounds like there were a millton red flags along the way with several of these people, and no one in authority took action. They were about saving money. Or just stayed silent.

So, I hope you all do the right thing when you are in authority.

NP. I’ve been following this thread partly as a movie-lover interested in how movies get made but mostly as a lawyer interested in the legal complexities. For the record, I’m agnostic on the questions of legal fault, moral fault, civil liability, criminal liability, insurance coverage, worker’s comp, etc, because we the public simply don’t have enough information to come to any conclusions.

But. This poster makes a great point on separating the legal issues from the questions of “what went wrong” for this dangerous situation ever to arise in the first place. Many unsafe choices were made, at many steps in the process, by multiple people. Choices that probably won’t lead to legal liability, may not even carry moral stain, but were bad choices all the same. And PP is right that similar situations arise across all industries.

I have a friend who’s a legal ethics professor, and his niche interest is cases where otherwise competent lawyers make one or two questionable choices, dig in deeper trying to cover up their mistake, and ultimately end up facing serious consequences. He guest lectured for a non-law class that I teach, and his message to everyone was that (1) no one thinks they’ll ever end up in an ethical bind at work, but it happens all the time, (2) when it happens, all of the options might be BAD — doing the right thing may only get you fired, doing the wrong thing is wrong and may also come back to bite you — and (3) you’ll have to choose among those bad options.

Redundant policies and procedures like the ones that apparently should have been in place on this movie set seem like overkill in the 99% of the time when everything runs smoothly. But when they do matter, they matter a lot. Amidst all the bickering about guns and film sets, it doesn’t hurt to take a moment to reflect that corner-cutting and rule-breaking happens in your industry too, and there may come a time when you have to make hard choices.