Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I have no interest in learning the quranic arabic or in entertaining more scholarly acrobatics from people whose main aim is to make the unattractive look attractive. This is not a personal attack against you. You've delivered the party line to the best of your ability. But if that pleases you better , you can tell yourself that I just DONT WANT TO LEARN THE TRUTH goddammit.

Honestly, I can't imagine telling anyone who wanted to learn more about my faith to go talk to a priest. I'd direct them to an internet site or books--might even lend them some. And I'd probably slip in some referrals to critiques of my faith as well for good measure because people should be shown both the pros and the cons for a good understanding. I really, really do not understand why talking to some Islamic scholar is necessary for an understanding of the faith. I suspect these referrals are made because they think the scholar will be more successful in converting someone than mere reading up on the subject.

I absolutely agree with PP that people need to come to a faith based on wide-ranging exploration of sources, both pro and con. Conversion should never be about just racking up ever higher numbers in your faith (the team!) by directing potential converts to the guy who can deliver the most polished sales pitch.

For that reason, I've been uncomfortable every time Muslim PP suggests we go to a mosque for the official explanation. This is the first time I've said it. I'm not interested in talking to a guy who gets paid to sell his religion. I'm actually already familiar with parts of the Muslim sales pitch and we've seen bits of it here.

For the same reason, I love my own minister and I think he's extremely articulate (and progressive, and not a literalist, and never pushy). But I would never suggest somebody make an appt at my church to talk to him. Conversion should be an informed choice, and anything that even gives the appearance of a sales pitch just seems so wrong. Like PP, I'd probably offer some books with a range of views.

Whoa. Paranoid much? I am Muslim but when I was curious about Christianity, I did BOTH, read on my own but also met with knowledgeable priests to ask questions. And this is why I suggested that pp seek more knowledge from those who are more knowledgeable than her.

I never once thought it might get her to convert. PP is beyond rehabilitation. Islam likely may not want her. Islam is not begging for converts, if you didn't know.

As a Muslim, if I can meet with priests, she can meet with a scholar or imam. She has over a hundred posts on Islam, asking questions, yet refuses to ask those who she knows can answer her questions better than Muslims on DCUM. I have provided a mosque location, an imams name, the class name. This means Jeff was right. Muslima was right. And I was right. PP came here to DCUM with an agenda. She isn't interested in answers to her questions. They were a guise. She feigned interest in Islam to present it on DCUM as a barbaric, vile, oppressive religion. 50 pages of hate filled speech. Shameful. Personally, I thought Jeff should delete the threads but now I think anyone who reads it may find some information helpful. I will also refer this thread and others to CAIR to possibly use in media since they now serve as examples of blogs being used as hate propoganda.

What is sad that every attempt to clarify is met with accusations of proselytizing. We Muslims who love our faith are expected to either remain silent in the face of such terribly ugly accusations, otherwise we are accused of either being brainwashed or proselytizing.

Given the number of pp's posts and her bank of knowledge (albeit with gaps or holes because she refuses to learn Quranic Arabic), it is clear she works for an anti-Islam group. There are a few such groups, some of them are actually international. No one else studies a religion this much solely out of hate.

I happen to agree with that other poster. You are the one who started all these conversations, not the PP you're attacking. You are the one who started multiple threads and you've spouted multiple platitudes. Your multiple threads and multiple platitudes actually do look like proselytizing. No surprise, then, that you get accused of proselytizing.

The PP you're attacking has been in a reactive mode to your many threads, posts and superficial assertions. I, for one, am grateful to her for having the energy and knowledge to counter platitudes such as your claim that Islam gives equality to women (because, you finally clarified after about 10 pages, you define equality to include inequality) or that Islam is growing faster by conversion than immigration (you've insulted lots of people for asking for those stats) or that Islamic divorce rules are actually kind to women. I'm glad that stuff like that doesn't go unchallenged, but I personally don't have the time or knowledge to challenge it. So I'm glad she's around to point out, for example, that although you said women do well under Islam's divorce rules, the truth is that it's very easy for a man to get a divorce and the alimony that you boasted about is something he actually only has to pay for three months. Oops, you forgot to mention that. I'm glad that PP mentioned it for you.

I disagree that she's motivated by hate or that she works for some hate group - that's just paranoia on your part. That PP has said multiple times that she knows about Islam because she married a muslim or maybe he's a former muslim. Seems like a credible explanation to me.

Why on earth would you forward these threads to CAIR? All these threads really show is that you threw a bunch of platitudes out there and got called out almost every time. You threatened PP with Jeff and now you're threatening her with CAIR. Yay for you.

These are posters PAID by Saudi Arabia which has been spreading this violent cult around the world. No use arguing. These people believe an Angel flew down from the heavens into a desert and blessed a wandering man with the "truth", coded in conflicting and vague messages, that you most follow, as interpreted by other random humans, or these random humans will kill you.

More news from the Islam from Saudi Arabia.

A court in Saudi Arabia has sentenced the Shia cleric Sheikh Nimr Baqir al-Nimr to death, his family says. Sheikh Nimr Baqir al-Nimr's brother said he was found guilty of seeking "foreign meddling" in the kingdom, "disobeying" its rulers and taking up arms against the security forces.

When Sheikh Nimr, who holds the rank of ayatollah, went on trial in March 2013 prosecutors called for his execution by "crucifixion", a punishment which in Saudi Arabia involves beheading followed by public display of the decapitated body.

Not safe to be a Shia in Saudi Arabia.

Reza F. Safa, author of Inside Islam: Exposing and Reaching the World of Islam, estimates that since 1973, the Saudi government has spent an unbelievable $87B to promote Wahhabism in the United States, Africa, Southeast Asia and Europe. According to official Saudi information, Saudi funds have been used to build and maintain over 1,500 mosques, 202 colleges, 210 Islamic Centers wholly or partly financed by Saudi Arabia, and almost 2,000 schools for educating Muslim children in non-Islamic countries in Europe, North and South America, Australia and Asia.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I have no interest in learning the quranic arabic or in entertaining more scholarly acrobatics from people whose main aim is to make the unattractive look attractive. This is not a personal attack against you. You've delivered the party line to the best of your ability. But if that pleases you better , you can tell yourself that I just DONT WANT TO LEARN THE TRUTH goddammit.

Honestly, I can't imagine telling anyone who wanted to learn more about my faith to go talk to a priest. I'd direct them to an internet site or books--might even lend them some. And I'd probably slip in some referrals to critiques of my faith as well for good measure because people should be shown both the pros and the cons for a good understanding. I really, really do not understand why talking to some Islamic scholar is necessary for an understanding of the faith. I suspect these referrals are made because they think the scholar will be more successful in converting someone than mere reading up on the subject.

I absolutely agree with PP that people need to come to a faith based on wide-ranging exploration of sources, both pro and con. Conversion should never be about just racking up ever higher numbers in your faith (the team!) by directing potential converts to the guy who can deliver the most polished sales pitch.

For that reason, I've been uncomfortable every time Muslim PP suggests we go to a mosque for the official explanation. This is the first time I've said it. I'm not interested in talking to a guy who gets paid to sell his religion. I'm actually already familiar with parts of the Muslim sales pitch and we've seen bits of it here.

For the same reason, I love my own minister and I think he's extremely articulate (and progressive, and not a literalist, and never pushy). But I would never suggest somebody make an appt at my church to talk to him. Conversion should be an informed choice, and anything that even gives the appearance of a sales pitch just seems so wrong. Like PP, I'd probably offer some books with a range of views.

Whoa. Paranoid much? I am Muslim but when I was curious about Christianity, I did BOTH, read on my own but also met with knowledgeable priests to ask questions. And this is why I suggested that pp seek more knowledge from those who are more knowledgeable than her.

I never once thought it might get her to convert. PP is beyond rehabilitation. Islam likely may not want her. Islam is not begging for converts, if you didn't know.

As a Muslim, if I can meet with priests, she can meet with a scholar or imam. She has over a hundred posts on Islam, asking questions, yet refuses to ask those who she knows can answer her questions better than Muslims on DCUM. I have provided a mosque location, an imams name, the class name. This means Jeff was right. Muslima was right. And I was right. PP came here to DCUM with an agenda. She isn't interested in answers to her questions. They were a guise. She feigned interest in Islam to present it on DCUM as a barbaric, vile, oppressive religion. 50 pages of hate filled speech. Shameful. Personally, I thought Jeff should delete the threads but now I think anyone who reads it may find some information helpful. I will also refer this thread and others to CAIR to possibly use in media since they now serve as examples of blogs being used as hate propoganda.

What is sad that every attempt to clarify is met with accusations of proselytizing. We Muslims who love our faith are expected to either remain silent in the face of such terribly ugly accusations, otherwise we are accused of either being brainwashed or proselytizing.

Given the number of pp's posts and her bank of knowledge (albeit with gaps or holes because she refuses to learn Quranic Arabic), it is clear she works for an anti-Islam group. There are a few such groups, some of them are actually international. No one else studies a religion this much solely out of hate.

I happen to agree with that other poster. You are the one who started all these conversations, not the PP you're attacking. You are the one who started multiple threads and you've spouted multiple platitudes. Your multiple threads and multiple platitudes actually do look like proselytizing. No surprise, then, that you get accused of proselytizing.

The PP you're attacking has been in a reactive mode to your many threads, posts and superficial assertions. I, for one, am grateful to her for having the energy and knowledge to counter platitudes such as your claim that Islam gives equality to women (because, you finally clarified after about 10 pages, you define equality to include inequality) or that Islam is growing faster by conversion than immigration (you've insulted lots of people for asking for those stats) or that Islamic divorce rules are actually kind to women. I'm glad that stuff like that doesn't go unchallenged, but I personally don't have the time or knowledge to challenge it. So I'm glad she's around to point out, for example, that although you said women do well under Islam's divorce rules, the truth is that it's very easy for a man to get a divorce and the alimony that you boasted about is something he actually only has to pay for three months. Oops, you forgot to mention that. I'm glad that PP mentioned it for you.

I disagree that she's motivated by hate or that she works for some hate group - that's just paranoia on your part. That PP has said multiple times that she knows about Islam because she married a muslim or maybe he's a former muslim. Seems like a credible explanation to me.

Why on earth would you forward these threads to CAIR? All these threads really show is that you threw a bunch of platitudes out there and got called out almost every time. You threatened PP with Jeff and now you're threatening her with CAIR. Yay for you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I have no interest in learning the quranic arabic or in entertaining more scholarly acrobatics from people whose main aim is to make the unattractive look attractive. This is not a personal attack against you. You've delivered the party line to the best of your ability. But if that pleases you better , you can tell yourself that I just DONT WANT TO LEARN THE TRUTH goddammit.

Honestly, I can't imagine telling anyone who wanted to learn more about my faith to go talk to a priest. I'd direct them to an internet site or books--might even lend them some. And I'd probably slip in some referrals to critiques of my faith as well for good measure because people should be shown both the pros and the cons for a good understanding. I really, really do not understand why talking to some Islamic scholar is necessary for an understanding of the faith. I suspect these referrals are made because they think the scholar will be more successful in converting someone than mere reading up on the subject.

I absolutely agree with PP that people need to come to a faith based on wide-ranging exploration of sources, both pro and con. Conversion should never be about just racking up ever higher numbers in your faith (the team!) by directing potential converts to the guy who can deliver the most polished sales pitch.

For that reason, I've been uncomfortable every time Muslim PP suggests we go to a mosque for the official explanation. This is the first time I've said it. I'm not interested in talking to a guy who gets paid to sell his religion. I'm actually already familiar with parts of the Muslim sales pitch and we've seen bits of it here.

For the same reason, I love my own minister and I think he's extremely articulate (and progressive, and not a literalist, and never pushy). But I would never suggest somebody make an appt at my church to talk to him. Conversion should be an informed choice, and anything that even gives the appearance of a sales pitch just seems so wrong. Like PP, I'd probably offer some books with a range of views.

Whoa. Paranoid much? I am Muslim but when I was curious about Christianity, I did BOTH, read on my own but also met with knowledgeable priests to ask questions. And this is why I suggested that pp seek more knowledge from those who are more knowledgeable than her.

I never once thought it might get her to convert. PP is beyond rehabilitation. Islam likely may not want her. Islam is not begging for converts, if you didn't know.

As a Muslim, if I can meet with priests, she can meet with a scholar or imam. She has over a hundred posts on Islam, asking questions, yet refuses to ask those who she knows can answer her questions better than Muslims on DCUM. I have provided a mosque location, an imams name, the class name. This means Jeff was right. Muslima was right. And I was right. PP came here to DCUM with an agenda. She isn't interested in answers to her questions. They were a guise. She feigned interest in Islam to present it on DCUM as a barbaric, vile, oppressive religion. 50 pages of hate filled speech. Shameful. Personally, I thought Jeff should delete the threads but now I think anyone who reads it may find some information helpful. I will also refer this thread and others to CAIR to possibly use in media since they now serve as examples of blogs being used as hate propoganda.

What is sad that every attempt to clarify is met with accusations of proselytizing. We Muslims who love our faith are expected to either remain silent in the face of such terribly ugly accusations, otherwise we are accused of either being brainwashed or proselytizing.

Given the number of pp's posts and her bank of knowledge (albeit with gaps or holes because she refuses to learn Quranic Arabic), it is clear she works for an anti-Islam group. There are a few such groups, some of them are actually international. No one else studies a religion this much solely out of hate.

I happen to agree with that other poster. You are the one who started all these conversations, not the PP you're attacking. You are the one who started multiple threads and you've spouted multiple platitudes. Your multiple threads and multiple platitudes actually do look like proselytizing. No surprise, then, that you get accused of proselytizing.

The PP you're attacking has been in a reactive mode to your many threads, posts and superficial assertions. I, for one, am grateful to her for having the energy and knowledge to counter platitudes such as your claim that Islam gives equality to women (because, you finally clarified after about 10 pages, you define equality to include inequality) or that Islam is growing faster by conversion than immigration (you've insulted lots of people for asking for those stats) or that Islamic divorce rules are actually kind to women. I'm glad that stuff like that doesn't go unchallenged, but I personally don't have the time or knowledge to challenge it. So I'm glad she's around to point out, for example, that although you said women do well under Islam's divorce rules, the truth is that it's very easy for a man to get a divorce and the alimony that you boasted about is something he actually only has to pay for three months. Oops, you forgot to mention that. I'm glad that PP mentioned it for you.

I disagree that she's motivated by hate or that she works for some hate group - that's just paranoia on your part. That PP has said multiple times that she knows about Islam because she married a muslim or maybe he's a former muslim. Seems like a credible explanation to me.

Why on earth would you forward these threads to CAIR? All these threads really show is that you threw a bunch of platitudes out there and got called out almost every time. You threatened PP with Jeff and now you're threatening her with CAIR. Yay for you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I have no interest in learning the quranic arabic or in entertaining more scholarly acrobatics from people whose main aim is to make the unattractive look attractive. This is not a personal attack against you. You've delivered the party line to the best of your ability. But if that pleases you better , you can tell yourself that I just DONT WANT TO LEARN THE TRUTH goddammit.

Honestly, I can't imagine telling anyone who wanted to learn more about my faith to go talk to a priest. I'd direct them to an internet site or books--might even lend them some. And I'd probably slip in some referrals to critiques of my faith as well for good measure because people should be shown both the pros and the cons for a good understanding. I really, really do not understand why talking to some Islamic scholar is necessary for an understanding of the faith. I suspect these referrals are made because they think the scholar will be more successful in converting someone than mere reading up on the subject.

I absolutely agree with PP that people need to come to a faith based on wide-ranging exploration of sources, both pro and con. Conversion should never be about just racking up ever higher numbers in your faith (the team!) by directing potential converts to the guy who can deliver the most polished sales pitch.

For that reason, I've been uncomfortable every time Muslim PP suggests we go to a mosque for the official explanation. This is the first time I've said it. I'm not interested in talking to a guy who gets paid to sell his religion. I'm actually already familiar with parts of the Muslim sales pitch and we've seen bits of it here.

For the same reason, I love my own minister and I think he's extremely articulate (and progressive, and not a literalist, and never pushy). But I would never suggest somebody make an appt at my church to talk to him. Conversion should be an informed choice, and anything that even gives the appearance of a sales pitch just seems so wrong. Like PP, I'd probably offer some books with a range of views.

Whoa. Paranoid much? I am Muslim but when I was curious about Christianity, I did BOTH, read on my own but also met with knowledgeable priests to ask questions. And this is why I suggested that pp seek more knowledge from those who are more knowledgeable than her.

I never once thought it might get her to convert. PP is beyond rehabilitation. Islam likely may not want her. Islam is not begging for converts, if you didn't know.

As a Muslim, if I can meet with priests, she can meet with a scholar or imam. She has over a hundred posts on Islam, asking questions, yet refuses to ask those who she knows can answer her questions better than Muslims on DCUM. I have provided a mosque location, an imams name, the class name. This means Jeff was right. Muslima was right. And I was right. PP came here to DCUM with an agenda. She isn't interested in answers to her questions. They were a guise. She feigned interest in Islam to present it on DCUM as a barbaric, vile, oppressive religion. 50 pages of hate filled speech. Shameful. Personally, I thought Jeff should delete the threads but now I think anyone who reads it may find some information helpful. I will also refer this thread and others to CAIR to possibly use in media since they now serve as examples of blogs being used as hate propoganda.

What is sad that every attempt to clarify is met with accusations of proselytizing. We Muslims who love our faith are expected to either remain silent in the face of such terribly ugly accusations, otherwise we are accused of either being brainwashed or proselytizing.

Given the number of pp's posts and her bank of knowledge (albeit with gaps or holes because she refuses to learn Quranic Arabic), it is clear she works for an anti-Islam group. There are a few such groups, some of them are actually international. No one else studies a religion this much solely out of hate.

Anonymous wrote:
Whoa. Paranoid much? I am Muslim but when I was curious about Christianity, I did BOTH, read on my own but also met with knowledgeable priests to ask questions. And this is why I suggested that pp seek more knowledge from those who are more knowledgeable than her.

I never once thought it might get her to convert. PP is beyond rehabilitation. Islam likely may not want her. Islam is not begging for converts, if you didn't know.

Anonymous wrote:
As a Muslim, if I can meet with priests, she can meet with a scholar or imam. She has over a hundred posts on Islam, asking questions, yet refuses to ask those who she knows can answer her questions better than Muslims on DCUM. I have provided a mosque location, an imams name, the class name. This means Jeff was right. Muslima was right. And I was right. PP came here to DCUM with an agenda. She isn't interested in answers to her questions. They were a guise. She feigned interest in Islam to present it on DCUM as a barbaric, vile, oppressive religion. 50 pages of hate filled speech. Shameful. Personally, I thought Jeff should delete the threads but now I think anyone who reads it may find some information helpful. I will also refer this thread and others to CAIR to possibly use in media since they now serve as examples of blogs being used as hate propoganda.

Anonymous wrote:
What is sad that every attempt to clarify is met with accusations of proselytizing. We Muslims who love our faith are expected to either remain silent in the face of such terribly ugly accusations, otherwise we are accused of either being brainwashed or proselytizing.

Given the number of pp's posts and her bank of knowledge (albeit with gaps or holes because she refuses to learn Quranic Arabic), it is clear she works for an anti-Islam group. There are a few such groups, some of them are actually international. No one else studies a religion this much solely out of hate.

Anonymous wrote:

Looks to me like you are afraid to meet with a muslim.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I have no interest in learning the quranic arabic or in entertaining more scholarly acrobatics from people whose main aim is to make the unattractive look attractive. This is not a personal attack against you. You've delivered the party line to the best of your ability. But if that pleases you better , you can tell yourself that I just DONT WANT TO LEARN THE TRUTH goddammit.

Honestly, I can't imagine telling anyone who wanted to learn more about my faith to go talk to a priest. I'd direct them to an internet site or books--might even lend them some. And I'd probably slip in some referrals to critiques of my faith as well for good measure because people should be shown both the pros and the cons for a good understanding. I really, really do not understand why talking to some Islamic scholar is necessary for an understanding of the faith. I suspect these referrals are made because they think the scholar will be more successful in converting someone than mere reading up on the subject.

I absolutely agree with PP that people need to come to a faith based on wide-ranging exploration of sources, both pro and con. Conversion should never be about just racking up ever higher numbers in your faith (the team!) by directing potential converts to the guy who can deliver the most polished sales pitch.

For that reason, I've been uncomfortable every time Muslim PP suggests we go to a mosque for the official explanation. This is the first time I've said it. I'm not interested in talking to a guy who gets paid to sell his religion. I'm actually already familiar with parts of the Muslim sales pitch and we've seen bits of it here.

For the same reason, I love my own minister and I think he's extremely articulate (and progressive, and not a literalist, and never pushy). But I would never suggest somebody make an appt at my church to talk to him. Conversion should be an informed choice, and anything that even gives the appearance of a sales pitch just seems so wrong. Like PP, I'd probably offer some books with a range of views.

I'm not really uncomfortable with it, I'm amused, because it implies that there is an explanation out there that will make you slap your forehead and say "Ahh! Now I get while you guys do that, and why that's an excellent thing to do!" Sometimes things are black and white, and things you don't like are also black and white. No scholar can make it all white.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I have no interest in learning the quranic arabic or in entertaining more scholarly acrobatics from people whose main aim is to make the unattractive look attractive. This is not a personal attack against you. You've delivered the party line to the best of your ability. But if that pleases you better , you can tell yourself that I just DONT WANT TO LEARN THE TRUTH goddammit.

Honestly, I can't imagine telling anyone who wanted to learn more about my faith to go talk to a priest. I'd direct them to an internet site or books--might even lend them some. And I'd probably slip in some referrals to critiques of my faith as well for good measure because people should be shown both the pros and the cons for a good understanding. I really, really do not understand why talking to some Islamic scholar is necessary for an understanding of the faith. I suspect these referrals are made because they think the scholar will be more successful in converting someone than mere reading up on the subject.

I absolutely agree with PP that people need to come to a faith based on wide-ranging exploration of sources, both pro and con. Conversion should never be about just racking up ever higher numbers in your faith (the team!) by directing potential converts to the guy who can deliver the most polished sales pitch.

For that reason, I've been uncomfortable every time Muslim PP suggests we go to a mosque for the official explanation. This is the first time I've said it. I'm not interested in talking to a guy who gets paid to sell his religion. I'm actually already familiar with parts of the Muslim sales pitch and we've seen bits of it here.

For the same reason, I love my own minister and I think he's extremely articulate (and progressive, and not a literalist, and never pushy). But I would never suggest somebody make an appt at my church to talk to him. Conversion should be an informed choice, and anything that even gives the appearance of a sales pitch just seems so wrong. Like PP, I'd probably offer some books with a range of views.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Literacy does not preclude faith or iman. Islam is a belief system and adherence to proper conduct. If one lives thousands of miles from the local literacy teacher, would Islam say that person may not love Allah/God? What if a person lives in poverty and there are no schools where they live, does that mean Allah/God rejects their devotion? Of course not! It is understood that the Muslim must try hard to learn to read Quranic Arabic, but if extenuating circumstances can not permit it, Allah/God is merciful.

It actually isn't. It's just Arabs trying to be special again.

Where are you getting this from? Just your opinion?

My opinion too. What is required of Muslims is practice of the five pillars. You can be a devout and practicing literate (or illiterate) Muslim even if you never cracked open the Quran or learned a single hadith.

You can call it my opinion backed by 40+ years among Muslims.

Arabs, especially Gulf Arabs, as people invest their identities deeply in being the nation that brought forth Islam and Prophet Muhammad. That makes them feel special and superior among other Muslims - a position that is subtly and sometimes not-too-subtly reinforced by the Islamic establishment. That being Arab is special, and that Arabic is a special language is a very deeply held article of faith among them. While not acknowledged in public (and while in direct contradiction to the Quran and records of Muhammad), Arabs feel they are superior Muslims and human beings over Pakistanis, Indonesians, Malaysians, god forbid Africans, and don't even mention the Iranians, just because they are Arabs, and just by virtue of their birth have a stronger claim to Islam than anyone else, and are therefore a higher brand of humans, because "you can't really know Islam and Quran without learning Arabic". This is why an Arab can be friends with a Pakistani, but a thought of his sister marrying a Pakistani will make him apoplectic because "Arabs are wife takers, not wife givers". Arabs use it to blank out the fact that post the Andalus era, Arabs and specifically Gulf Arabs as a group of people and countries have contributed precious little to the coffers of world civilization - not in science, not in literature, not in music, not in art, not in politics, not in technology - but gosh darn it, we are Arabs who gave the world Islam and hold the key to its meaning, not available in any other form, and we are (still) special.

Is this racist? Of course. Does this have anything to do with what the Quran says? Absolutely not. Muhammad's last sermon specifically said black and white, Arab and non-Arab is the same. But culture influences practice, it certainly influences scholars and lawmakers, and it most certainly shapes public discourse. The Islamic discourse and mainstream Sunni Muslim scholarship is driven - and funded - by this culture. If you are from that environment, you will deny this but secretly you will know that this is true.

+1

There is much truth to this. And this view has become contagious in that it's spread north in the Arab world and is indirectly responsible for groups like ISIS.

I will say I do find all of this a great shame. I grew up in a Gulf country before the surge of money and was deeply impressed by the devout adherence to prayer--I recall lone trucks pulled off otherwise empty roads with the driver praying beside it surrounded by a vast desert. Yes, the strict adherence was probably driven by Wahhabism, but it was practiced out of deep personal piety (no one would know if the driver had prayed or not) and there was no arrogance associated with it.

This is also why a brand of expansionist, aggressive Sunni Islam intrudes into other countries - whether militarily (like ISIS) or culturally (like KSA-funded mosques) - it takes great pains to impress or force the local population to believe that the only way to be true Muslims is to behave and look exactly Arabs.

Stupid, petty example - Muslim women in the Caucasus cover their hair and always did. Their native style of hair covering is a Bosnian-style headscarf tied on top of the head with a knot in the back, ends of scarf down the back, neck open. They've done it for centuries - a culturally acceptable, climate-appropriate way of signifying their Islam. Once Saudi-Wahhabi money and imams came over, they started to enforce turtle-style hijabs covering the entire torso - something that has NEVER been practiced in that culture. See? Take something that only Arabs do and enforce is as the only way to practice Islam.

Different women cover in different ways. Its just not as big a deal among Muslims as you are making it out to be.

So why not let different women cover in different ways? What's with the weird urge to Arabize everyone?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I have no interest in learning the quranic arabic or in entertaining more scholarly acrobatics from people whose main aim is to make the unattractive look attractive. This is not a personal attack against you. You've delivered the party line to the best of your ability. But if that pleases you better , you can tell yourself that I just DONT WANT TO LEARN THE TRUTH goddammit.

Honestly, I can't imagine telling anyone who wanted to learn more about my faith to go talk to a priest. I'd direct them to an internet site or books--might even lend them some. And I'd probably slip in some referrals to critiques of my faith as well for good measure because people should be shown both the pros and the cons for a good understanding. I really, really do not understand why talking to some Islamic scholar is necessary for an understanding of the faith. I suspect these referrals are made because they think the scholar will be more successful in converting someone than mere reading up on the subject.

I absolutely agree with PP that people need to come to a faith based on wide-ranging exploration of sources, both pro and con. Conversion should never be about just racking up ever higher numbers in your faith (the team!) by directing potential converts to the guy who can deliver the most polished sales pitch.

For that reason, I've been uncomfortable every time Muslim PP suggests we go to a mosque for the official explanation. This is the first time I've said it. I'm not interested in talking to a guy who gets paid to sell his religion. I'm actually already familiar with parts of the Muslim sales pitch and we've seen bits of it here.

For the same reason, I love my own minister and I think he's extremely articulate (and progressive, and not a literalist, and never pushy). But I would never suggest somebody make an appt at my church to talk to him. Conversion should be an informed choice, and anything that even gives the appearance of a sales pitch just seems so wrong. Like PP, I'd probably offer some books with a range of views.

Anonymous wrote:I'd also say it's not Arabicize everyone--more like Gulfize everyone.

In the Levant, women traditionally wore long dresses with white veils (fancier for special occasions) that did not cover up the hair directly around the face. But now women have been convinced that the "traditional" Islamic women's dress is the hijab as one sees today with a mandate to cover up any scrap of hair. It most decidedly is not. This particular costume dates to the 1970's. Some attempts have been made to improve the earliest unappealing aesthetics--I remember women (and there were not many back then) in the late seventies sweating in the street under their polyester coats and synthetic scarves knotted tightly under their chins with material protruding over their foreheads in a most ungainly fashion.

Even in Saudi Arabia, the women of the Asir living in the more mountainous area bordering Yemen in the West did not veil their faces. They wore hats with very alrge brims (think sombrero) that protected them from the sun while they worked in the fields. Very hard to do outdoor labor in an abaya.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I have no interest in learning the quranic arabic or in entertaining more scholarly acrobatics from people whose main aim is to make the unattractive look attractive. This is not a personal attack against you. You've delivered the party line to the best of your ability. But if that pleases you better , you can tell yourself that I just DONT WANT TO LEARN THE TRUTH goddammit.

Honestly, I can't imagine telling anyone who wanted to learn more about my faith to go talk to a priest. I'd direct them to an internet site or books--might even lend them some. And I'd probably slip in some referrals to critiques of my faith as well for good measure because people should be shown both the pros and the cons for a good understanding. I really, really do not understand why talking to some Islamic scholar is necessary for an understanding of the faith. I suspect these referrals are made because they think the scholar will be more successful in converting someone than mere reading up on the subject.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The Quran used to teach children is not in modern Arabic. Its old Arabic. Children recite it. They memorize it. Then they learn the background story of the sura. And they learn the translation, often from teachers who know Quranic Arabic, every word of it. Children do not memorize the translation word for word. Unnecessary. Prayers are in Quranic Arabic, not translations. Children do not learn the translation of every sura though. How can they when its hundreds of pages long? And they may not be able to explain from the top of their head the translation to the suras they did learn. But they generally know because there are stories associated with some of them.

Why dont you call the Saudi Academy or ADAMS to find out what children are learning? They will be honest with you.

I wonder if you understand that every post of yours on the subject confirms my position, not yours.

Children memorize the surahs and learn to recite them, like a collection of sounds in a language they don't know. Then someone tells them what (they think) this chapter is about. But children do not learn the translation of every surah, and they can't explain the translations they did learn.

Two questions for you:

a. How does this move anyone closer to the command of the Quranic Arabic you said it does?
b. How is this different from opera singers delivering arias in languages they don't speak?

If my answers have confirmed your beliefs it means I have done a poor job of explaining or you were biased long before you got on DCUM. If I have done a poor job explaining, then its all the more reason for you to call a mosque to inquire about Quranic Arabic classes. You can google "mosques in Northern Virginia" (DC or Maryland). The most well known mosque in Virginia is ADAMS or All Dulles Area Muslim Society. The Imam there is Muhamed Magid. The mosque has a great relationship with the US government. The FBI and CIA know Imam Magid and they have a mutually respectful relationship. The mosque has a very good relationship with local churches and synagogues too. They can refer you to teachers far, far more knowledgeable than me and more adept at explaining things. You can question and challenge them thoroughly. If you want, you can even locate a nonMuslim Quranic Arabic instructor if you would trust them more.

Come back to DCUM after three years of study and tell me if your understanding of Islam is the same.

I have no interest in learning the quranic arabic or in entertaining more scholarly acrobatics from people whose main aim is to make the unattractive look attractive. This is not a personal attack against you. You've delivered the party line to the best of your ability. But if that pleases you better , you can tell yourself that I just DONT WANT TO LEARN THE TRUTH goddammit.