Here is the article about English academy castoffs.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2017/10/20/sports/soccer/premier-league-youth-soccer.amp.html

Anonymous wrote:For those idealizing the European academy system:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/oct/06/football-biggest-issue-boys-rejected-academies

Considering the odds, not being able to send our kids to Europe at a young age may be a blessing in disguise...

So glad you posted this, there was also another article about a group of boys who after being rejected by the UK academies at a young age, their father's decided to take a risk on a separate private training program that would have them playing tournaments in France with the idea that would be scouted and have another chance. It was very eye-opening as I too was one of the people who assumed all academy players were awesome and were on a path to guaranteed contracts, playing time, rich and fame. Clearly I was being naive about the prospects but also thought that parents chasing a dream was an American experience. Once I do find it, I will share it here.

For those idealizing the European academy system:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/oct/06/football-biggest-issue-boys-rejected-academies

Considering the odds, not being able to send our kids to Europe at a young age may be a blessing in disguise...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP

None of what said speaks to the point that is being made. MLS will NEVER be the same level as the European counterparts but having MLS be culturally relevant is all that matters. You can enjoy it for what it is and not turn your nose up at it. I mean I’m pretty sure most of your kids soccer games are all crap but you root and you care nonetheless.

That's because they're our kids... don't you get it... there's no reason to watch MLS currently. Are you seriously saying we should all sit down and force ourselves to watch MLS soccer just because... you know we can't watch a few NFL plays without needing commercials, how do you think people are going to watch chity soccer??? Get a grip man.

One of the top complaints about why our nation fails to produce international talent is because "Our best athletes choose more lucrative sports over soccer. And of those that still choose soccer are kids, while perfectly talented soccer players would be better to accept a scholarship worth $65,000/year at a top D1 school than play for the MLS minimum of $65,000 and develop further in a professional environment."

This refrain is said over and over again in board after board. Sure we have some player ID issues but when a majority of kids choose to play College soccer over MLS because the "money is virtually the same but in college you get a degree" that is as much the fault of a reluctant fan base. Granted there is a chicken or the egg paradox at play here but no matter how you want to rationalize it, turning your nose at MLS does ZERO in the big picture of improving the opportunities or the long term growth and quality of American Soccer.

The reality is simple, the legal framework currently is prohibitive for our best to train and develop in Europe, so like it or not the long term success of MLS is vital. It may be like eating your vegetables but even minimal support of MLS is good for the American game.

$65k/year for four years, and you get to choose whichever major, not the P.E fake degrees universities have come up with to allow their football/basketball players(they make money off of) to focus on the sport and not the academics. Any college bound player would take that deal, any day. This is assuming they will keep their position and scholarship even if they're in poor form, get injured, or their team is losing, right?

Once you take the rest of the risks that come with a sports scholarship, only students that are destined for the pros get those kinds of scholarships, and they may not stick around for four years. There is a giant gap in the situation you're discussing, and that is the price at the gate for being able to get scouted, trained, identified. Only the families with the wherewithal to afford such a recreational activity for their children are the ones who may have a chance to go pro, and no family, with means, in their right mind would let their son skip college to try to play for the pros in MLS. The identification and a club's ability to pay for a player's training and living away from their families will be the way to having a talented player realize their potential. Many people here think all European academy players reach stardom, which is hardly the case. Going to play for MLS is a gamble, and only those that have a passion for the sport and those that see playing football as an opportunity to get out of a bad situation will take the deal. There is so much opportunity here in the US, it's understandable why our children and us as parents are shoving our way through the MLS' doors. Plenty of Central American, Caribbean, and South American players are though, ever wonder why? The quality is so much better than their home country? I would think not...

Regarding the bolded above, those players "destined for the pros" that choose college fall well behind their European counterparts who choose the pro path. College does not develop players, hell, college does not even abide by all of FIFA rules.

In Europe, if you are able to make a professional academy you tend to see it though until you wash out or "make it" but generally the only risk to the player is opportunity cost. Again, our legal and league structures do not offer many financial incentives for MLS clubs to truly develop players. They can only hope to sign who they have developed before they go to the draft. The actual sale of Pulisic from lets say the Philadelphia Union to Dortmund would have gone a long way to funding the academy that could have developed him.

And that is our problem, we want our DA's to be fully funded and work the way big European clubs do it but while they are selling Elite prospects for Millions we are trying to pay for the development of players from the profits made from literally selling hotdogs, beer and parking concessions. When you sign your travel team up for a Chic-fil-a fundraiser night to buy some jerseys your funding model is not that different than a MLS club.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP

None of what said speaks to the point that is being made. MLS will NEVER be the same level as the European counterparts but having MLS be culturally relevant is all that matters. You can enjoy it for what it is and not turn your nose up at it. I mean I’m pretty sure most of your kids soccer games are all crap but you root and you care nonetheless.

That's because they're our kids... don't you get it... there's no reason to watch MLS currently. Are you seriously saying we should all sit down and force ourselves to watch MLS soccer just because... you know we can't watch a few NFL plays without needing commercials, how do you think people are going to watch chity soccer??? Get a grip man.

One of the top complaints about why our nation fails to produce international talent is because "Our best athletes choose more lucrative sports over soccer. And of those that still choose soccer are kids, while perfectly talented soccer players would be better to accept a scholarship worth $65,000/year at a top D1 school than play for the MLS minimum of $65,000 and develop further in a professional environment."

This refrain is said over and over again in board after board. Sure we have some player ID issues but when a majority of kids choose to play College soccer over MLS because the "money is virtually the same but in college you get a degree" that is as much the fault of a reluctant fan base. Granted there is a chicken or the egg paradox at play here but no matter how you want to rationalize it, turning your nose at MLS does ZERO in the big picture of improving the opportunities or the long term growth and quality of American Soccer.

The reality is simple, the legal framework currently is prohibitive for our best to train and develop in Europe, so like it or not the long term success of MLS is vital. It may be like eating your vegetables but even minimal support of MLS is good for the American game.

$65k/year for four years, and you get to choose whichever major, not the P.E fake degrees universities have come up with to allow their football/basketball players(they make money off of) to focus on the sport and not the academics. Any college bound player would take that deal, any day. This is assuming they will keep their position and scholarship even if they're in poor form, get injured, or their team is losing, right?

Once you take the rest of the risks that come with a sports scholarship, only students that are destined for the pros get those kinds of scholarships, and they may not stick around for four years. There is a giant gap in the situation you're discussing, and that is the price at the gate for being able to get scouted, trained, identified. Only the families with the wherewithal to afford such a recreational activity for their children are the ones who may have a chance to go pro, and no family, with means, in their right mind would let their son skip college to try to play for the pros in MLS. The identification and a club's ability to pay for a player's training and living away from their families will be the way to having a talented player realize their potential. Many people here think all European academy players reach stardom, which is hardly the case. Going to play for MLS is a gamble, and only those that have a passion for the sport and those that see playing football as an opportunity to get out of a bad situation will take the deal. There is so much opportunity here in the US, it's understandable why our children and us as parents are shoving our way through the MLS' doors. Plenty of Central American, Caribbean, and South American players are though, ever wonder why? The quality is so much better than their home country? I would think not...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP

None of what said speaks to the point that is being made. MLS will NEVER be the same level as the European counterparts but having MLS be culturally relevant is all that matters. You can enjoy it for what it is and not turn your nose up at it. I mean I’m pretty sure most of your kids soccer games are all crap but you root and you care nonetheless.

Again, why is that the customer should suck it up and deal with the product MLS is providing? How about if MLS improve their soccer, and then the customers will come.

Don’t but don’t complain about the league either and don’t complain about our national team when the one small thing you can do is turn a tv channel to a MLS game. You don’t even have to watch, just give it a click. I’m not disputing the league quality versus Europe but you simply fail to acknowledge the simple symbiotic relationship at play here. The more league revenue, the more money clubs can invest in development. The higher salaries that can be payed the more attractive the league is to talent. MLS still has to compete in a brutal landscape of huge leagues and huge clubs. You could buy the Columbus Crew for less than half of Ronaldo’s transfer fee. So no shit MLS lacks the quality of other leagues but being a pompous snob is only widening the gap.

Yes, we will fill a stadium to watch to European powerhouses play their second string in a scrimmage but until we can fill a USL stadium we will likely continue to suck on the international stage because culturally it demonstrates we are not as passionate about the sport as successful nations.

No, no. Go back and Pulisic's comments on player's tribune, he said the 17-20 yo don't get enough playing time in MLS. The issue is the playing time. The issue is the owners going for the safety of South American trained players and has been's of Europe. MLS clubs currently don't see a way into a profitable path, so they're phoning it in as well. Give an American kid with no European passport a chance to play in MLS, and I think the spectators will come to see a homegrown kid, the salaries won't be so high, and clubs and MLS will be able to recoup a portion of transfer fee if a superstar in MLS comes out and is able to be a solid player in a European club.

More money for MLS and clubs mean's more money for the owners, not more $ for development. Are you that naive? In UK, a USL stadium is equivalent to a Championship stadium, and if the team is promoted, everybody wins. More money for players, club, and the fans will get to see their team play at home vs United, City, Arsenal, Chelsea. There is no similar scenario here, and frankly there might never be one. Why would we, as Americans who do believe going first is required in any competition, be content with watching a league play in the second tier that will never have a chance to play as a first tier team. It's a pipe dream, it will never happen.

No, I'm not that naive and earlier in the thread I posted the following 5 roadblocks that MLS also must also contend with. I'll repeat them:

1. All of our sports rely on a player draft. Which means players rights are managed by leagues versus clubs.
2. The ability for clubs to recoup costs on player development via transfer fees. I don't see how we can overcome this legal barrier in the current legal and league structure.
3. The lack of tiered professional leagues for players to develop within.
4. College soccer and amateur rules. Kids have to make a decision to either get an education at a greatly reduced cost or try and go pro. With so few leagues to develop within most DA quality players choose College and College is where development goes to die. And players have to do college first because if they make one cent as a pro they are ineligible to even play in college much less receive a scholarship. Most players choose the safer path and play in college without ever following through on what a couple of years as pro might do to elevate their game in the prime years of 18-22 years old.
5. Work visas which greatly hinder truly elite players the ability to train and play in Europe at younger ages without European passports.

While "homegrown" contracts help as an incentive to develop players it does not make "development" a lucrative bi-product. If Man U losses a young prospect they at least recoup their investment in developing the player. Nobody walks for free in Europe, but in the States? The only incentive to developing kids is that you HOPE you can sign them as a homegrown player so they don't get exposed to the draft and walk out of your building for free. That is a HUGE difference in our models.

We are so used to college being the development league for the NFL and NBA that we believe College Sports are always the answer.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP

None of what said speaks to the point that is being made. MLS will NEVER be the same level as the European counterparts but having MLS be culturally relevant is all that matters. You can enjoy it for what it is and not turn your nose up at it. I mean I’m pretty sure most of your kids soccer games are all crap but you root and you care nonetheless.

Again, why is that the customer should suck it up and deal with the product MLS is providing? How about if MLS improve their soccer, and then the customers will come.

Don’t but don’t complain about the league either and don’t complain about our national team when the one small thing you can do is turn a tv channel to a MLS game. You don’t even have to watch, just give it a click. I’m not disputing the league quality versus Europe but you simply fail to acknowledge the simple symbiotic relationship at play here. The more league revenue, the more money clubs can invest in development. The higher salaries that can be payed the more attractive the league is to talent. MLS still has to compete in a brutal landscape of huge leagues and huge clubs. You could buy the Columbus Crew for less than half of Ronaldo’s transfer fee. So no shit MLS lacks the quality of other leagues but being a pompous snob is only widening the gap.

Yes, we will fill a stadium to watch to European powerhouses play their second string in a scrimmage but until we can fill a USL stadium we will likely continue to suck on the international stage because culturally it demonstrates we are not as passionate about the sport as successful nations.

No, no. Go back and Pulisic's comments on player's tribune, he said the 17-20 yo don't get enough playing time in MLS. The issue is the playing time. The issue is the owners going for the safety of South American trained players and has been's of Europe. MLS clubs currently don't see a way into a profitable path, so they're phoning it in as well. Give an American kid with no European passport a chance to play in MLS, and I think the spectators will come to see a homegrown kid, the salaries won't be so high, and clubs and MLS will be able to recoup a portion of transfer fee if a superstar in MLS comes out and is able to be a solid player in a European club.

More money for MLS and clubs mean's more money for the owners, not more $ for development. Are you that naive? In UK, a USL stadium is equivalent to a Championship stadium, and if the team is promoted, everybody wins. More money for players, club, and the fans will get to see their team play at home vs United, City, Arsenal, Chelsea. There is no similar scenario here, and frankly there might never be one. Why would we, as Americans who do believe going first is required in any competition, be content with watching a league play in the second tier that will never have a chance to play as a first tier team. It's a pipe dream, it will never happen.

The whole point of a successful USL is that developing players CAN play and develop. The Premier League is not a developmental league and neither should the MLS be but USL can fit that bill. But MLS needs to be lucrative enough that a kid is willing to play in USL in hopes of making a MLS club.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP

None of what said speaks to the point that is being made. MLS will NEVER be the same level as the European counterparts but having MLS be culturally relevant is all that matters. You can enjoy it for what it is and not turn your nose up at it. I mean I’m pretty sure most of your kids soccer games are all crap but you root and you care nonetheless.

That's because they're our kids... don't you get it... there's no reason to watch MLS currently. Are you seriously saying we should all sit down and force ourselves to watch MLS soccer just because... you know we can't watch a few NFL plays without needing commercials, how do you think people are going to watch chity soccer??? Get a grip man.

One of the top complaints about why our nation fails to produce international talent is because "Our best athletes choose more lucrative sports over soccer. And of those that still choose soccer are kids, while perfectly talented soccer players would be better to accept a scholarship worth $65,000/year at a top D1 school than play for the MLS minimum of $65,000 and develop further in a professional environment."

This refrain is said over and over again in board after board. Sure we have some player ID issues but when a majority of kids choose to play College soccer over MLS because the "money is virtually the same but in college you get a degree" that is as much the fault of a reluctant fan base. Granted there is a chicken or the egg paradox at play here but no matter how you want to rationalize it, turning your nose at MLS does ZERO in the big picture of improving the opportunities or the long term growth and quality of American Soccer.

The reality is simple, the legal framework currently is prohibitive for our best to train and develop in Europe, so like it or not the long term success of MLS is vital. It may be like eating your vegetables but even minimal support of MLS is good for the American game.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP

None of what said speaks to the point that is being made. MLS will NEVER be the same level as the European counterparts but having MLS be culturally relevant is all that matters. You can enjoy it for what it is and not turn your nose up at it. I mean I’m pretty sure most of your kids soccer games are all crap but you root and you care nonetheless.

Again, why is that the customer should suck it up and deal with the product MLS is providing? How about if MLS improve their soccer, and then the customers will come.

Don’t but don’t complain about the league either and don’t complain about our national team when the one small thing you can do is turn a tv channel to a MLS game. You don’t even have to watch, just give it a click. I’m not disputing the league quality versus Europe but you simply fail to acknowledge the simple symbiotic relationship at play here. The more league revenue, the more money clubs can invest in development. The higher salaries that can be payed the more attractive the league is to talent. MLS still has to compete in a brutal landscape of huge leagues and huge clubs. You could buy the Columbus Crew for less than half of Ronaldo’s transfer fee. So no shit MLS lacks the quality of other leagues but being a pompous snob is only widening the gap.

Yes, we will fill a stadium to watch to European powerhouses play their second string in a scrimmage but until we can fill a USL stadium we will likely continue to suck on the international stage because culturally it demonstrates we are not as passionate about the sport as successful nations.

No, no. Go back and Pulisic's comments on player's tribune, he said the 17-20 yo don't get enough playing time in MLS. The issue is the playing time. The issue is the owners going for the safety of South American trained players and has been's of Europe. MLS clubs currently don't see a way into a profitable path, so they're phoning it in as well. Give an American kid with no European passport a chance to play in MLS, and I think the spectators will come to see a homegrown kid, the salaries won't be so high, and clubs and MLS will be able to recoup a portion of transfer fee if a superstar in MLS comes out and is able to be a solid player in a European club.

More money for MLS and clubs mean's more money for the owners, not more $ for development. Are you that naive? In UK, a USL stadium is equivalent to a Championship stadium, and if the team is promoted, everybody wins. More money for players, club, and the fans will get to see their team play at home vs United, City, Arsenal, Chelsea. There is no similar scenario here, and frankly there might never be one. Why would we, as Americans who do believe going first is required in any competition, be content with watching a league play in the second tier that will never have a chance to play as a first tier team. It's a pipe dream, it will never happen.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP

None of what said speaks to the point that is being made. MLS will NEVER be the same level as the European counterparts but having MLS be culturally relevant is all that matters. You can enjoy it for what it is and not turn your nose up at it. I mean I’m pretty sure most of your kids soccer games are all crap but you root and you care nonetheless.

Again, why is that the customer should suck it up and deal with the product MLS is providing? How about if MLS improve their soccer, and then the customers will come.

And all the $$ in the World doesn’t matter since the US can’t properly develop or identify players. We don’t have enough coaches/trainers with talent/an eye or knowledge. The shitty US certifications are crap.

yes, and there's that. : )

When the objective is changed to develop players who can be sold to the highest bidder then the process of scouting and IDing kids changes. Developmental leagues like USL become more important and offer more pathways.

That ain't gonna happen if it's the parents who pay the big bucks for their kids' development......

Anonymous wrote:PP

None of what said speaks to the point that is being made. MLS will NEVER be the same level as the European counterparts but having MLS be culturally relevant is all that matters. You can enjoy it for what it is and not turn your nose up at it. I mean I’m pretty sure most of your kids soccer games are all crap but you root and you care nonetheless.

That's because they're our kids... don't you get it... there's no reason to watch MLS currently. Are you seriously saying we should all sit down and force ourselves to watch MLS soccer just because... you know we can't watch a few NFL plays without needing commercials, how do you think people are going to watch chity soccer??? Get a grip man.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP

None of what said speaks to the point that is being made. MLS will NEVER be the same level as the European counterparts but having MLS be culturally relevant is all that matters. You can enjoy it for what it is and not turn your nose up at it. I mean I’m pretty sure most of your kids soccer games are all crap but you root and you care nonetheless.

Again, why is that the customer should suck it up and deal with the product MLS is providing? How about if MLS improve their soccer, and then the customers will come.

And all the $$ in the World doesn’t matter since the US can’t properly develop or identify players. We don’t have enough coaches/trainers with talent/an eye or knowledge. The shitty US certifications are crap.

yes, and there's that. : )

When the objective is changed to develop players who can be sold to the highest bidder then the process of scouting and IDing kids changes. Developmental leagues like USL become more important and offer more pathways.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP

None of what said speaks to the point that is being made. MLS will NEVER be the same level as the European counterparts but having MLS be culturally relevant is all that matters. You can enjoy it for what it is and not turn your nose up at it. I mean I’m pretty sure most of your kids soccer games are all crap but you root and you care nonetheless.

Again, why is that the customer should suck it up and deal with the product MLS is providing? How about if MLS improve their soccer, and then the customers will come.

And all the $$ in the World doesn’t matter since the US can’t properly develop or identify players. We don’t have enough coaches/trainers with talent/an eye or knowledge. The shitty US certifications are crap.

yes, and there's that. : )

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP

None of what said speaks to the point that is being made. MLS will NEVER be the same level as the European counterparts but having MLS be culturally relevant is all that matters. You can enjoy it for what it is and not turn your nose up at it. I mean I’m pretty sure most of your kids soccer games are all crap but you root and you care nonetheless.

Again, why is that the customer should suck it up and deal with the product MLS is providing? How about if MLS improve their soccer, and then the customers will come.

And all the $$ in the World doesn’t matter since the US can’t properly develop or identify players. We don’t have enough coaches/trainers with talent/an eye or knowledge. The shitty US certifications are crap.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP

None of what said speaks to the point that is being made. MLS will NEVER be the same level as the European counterparts but having MLS be culturally relevant is all that matters. You can enjoy it for what it is and not turn your nose up at it. I mean I’m pretty sure most of your kids soccer games are all crap but you root and you care nonetheless.

Again, why is that the customer should suck it up and deal with the product MLS is providing? How about if MLS improve their soccer, and then the customers will come.

Don’t but don’t complain about the league either and don’t complain about our national team when the one small thing you can do is turn a tv channel to a MLS game. You don’t even have to watch, just give it a click. I’m not disputing the league quality versus Europe but you simply fail to acknowledge the simple symbiotic relationship at play here. The more league revenue, the more money clubs can invest in development. The higher salaries that can be payed the more attractive the league is to talent. MLS still has to compete in a brutal landscape of huge leagues and huge clubs. You could buy the Columbus Crew for less than half of Ronaldo’s transfer fee. So no shit MLS lacks the quality of other leagues but being a pompous snob is only widening the gap.

Yes, we will fill a stadium to watch to European powerhouses play their second string in a scrimmage but until we can fill a USL stadium we will likely continue to suck on the international stage because culturally it demonstrates we are not as passionate about the sport as successful nations.

I took my kids to the Barca Man U match and it wasn't 2nd string at all. They were all there. Messi, Iniesta, Busquets, Pique, Suerez, Neymar, Pogba, martial, Lukaku, Rashford, It was awesome. Great game. With that said, I don't know how I'm being a snob for not watching MLS. I do, and believe me I do, understand that MLS needs our support. I get it and I will personally try to incorporate more MLS stuff but geez, it would be nice if they improved their product and, to be honest, I don't know all the facts, but it seems like MLS needs pro/rel for the money to really trickle down to the academies.