Anonymous wrote:
funny that you discount Rachida Dati as a Muslim minister of justice "because she does not look or act as a Muslim". she is a Muslim, one of 12 kids of a Muslim impoverished family of the banlieus. there have been other Muslim cabinet members in France, including Rama Yade as Secretary of State for Human Rights Fadéla Amara as Secretary of State for Urban Policies, both nominated in 2007. how many Muslims cabinet members have ever been nominated in the US? zero.

All you can say with confidence about Dati is that she was born into a Muslim family. She doesn't cover. She has a child out of wedlock. She had to sue for paternity. We can split hairs about who is and is not a Muslim, but most practicing Muslims do not look or behave that way. When France elects a covered woman who prays regularly a minister, then you can talk. Until then, all you have is someone with a conveniently non-French name and non-French hair color.

Anonymous wrote:^^ So, your measure of success of Muslim integration in the US is how many Muslims have been elected president or nominated as cabinet members -- even thought they are 1% of the population, whereas in France they are 10%? Ok, how many Latinos are considered serious candidates for presidential primaries in france, like they are in the US? None, right? Perhaps because Latinos comprise a small proportion of the French population? So I need to conclude that France I doing much worse integrating latinos?

How many Buddishts, for that matter?

The US is a federation of 50 states, like the EU is a union of 28. How many heads of state -- governor-- are female in the US? Quite a few, proportionally more than in the EU.

And were people of North African heritage subject to slavery for hundreds of years and legal segregation until 50 years ago, like the AAs were? If we take the 60s as the starting point of progress, as implied by your statement about Muslim presence in france, the US has done much more progress with AA issues -- although so much more remains to be done, obviously -- compared to French progress with Muslim issues. Remember, the terrorists were French born citizens.

My original question stand: when do you think a person with a Muslim name will be elected president of France?

when christian politicians with muslim surnames enter politics.

As a Muslim having family in Europe and the US and having lived in both, i'd like to say that American Muslims are way more integrated than their European counterparts. Say what you will about America, but at the end of the day, we remain a nation that not only tolerates but for the most part embraces our differences, our individualities, freedom to worship who we want, how we want. Yes, we are not perfect, and we still have our issues but we are still better than most, and we are still working to get better. And this is why, I as a Muslim love America and will choose it 100 times over France. And this is the sentiment of most American Muslims, while most European Muslims, at least the ones i spoke to felt misunderstood and marginalized by their governments. No wonder, most of the islamophobic cartoons and anti-islam movies were birthed in Europe!

According to Wikipedia, there are about 8 percent of Muslims in France and 0.8 percent in the US. So the ten-fold difference is accurate.

In any event, I hope you are aware that when you say "Muslims in France account for just 5%, not 10%", it makes the rising degree of Xenophobia and Islamophobia look even more worrisome.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ The question was "Muslim name" , like, Hussein as middle name. It has already happened on the US.

A different questions is "elect a Muslim person", which can't be compared because Muslims account for 1% of the population in the US and 10% in France. The fact that a French presidential candidate from an openly Xenophobic and Islamophobic party, whose main rallying cry is to denounce immigration -- legal and illegal -- as the main threat to the French nation, get first place in opinion polls is not an encouraging sign.

ok, sorry. if you take as a sign of progress the fact that a Christian man was elected in the US even though he had a "Muslim sounding" middle name, then you are right. It is very heartening that a Muslim sounding middle name does not discourage American voters from voting for a Christian men. you are so ahead.

So you think the French are ready to take the admittedly insignificant step to vote for a Christian man with a Muslim sounding name? You and I agree that this a very small step -- and the whole point was that, in the current political juncture, it is unthinkable that the French would do so. If you think they would do it now, then you are oblivious.

There is no need for the argument about the US electing a Muslim president. If you read World News Daily (www.wnd.com), you will see that the US has already elected a Muslim President.

^^ My original question was about a Muslim sounding *name.* I of course agree that a US Muslim would have an uphill battle to get elected as governor, let alone president. But it's silly to think that a Muslim in Europe would have an easier time because "more progress has been made" -- I am sure you are aware of the dramatic rise of Xenophobia and Islamophobia in Europe, right? Or that Marine Le Pen gets 30% of the vote in opinion polls? If you want to continue trying to force a direct comparison between Muslims in the US and Muslims in France or Europe, which I have repeatedly argued it can't be made, please name a US presidential candidate, or a party that has placed first in recent elections, whose main message is Xenophobic and Islamophobic and gets 30 percent in polls.

I do know European politics, my friend. I was saying that it is impossible to compare a polity that has elections once every 4 years with a multitude of polities in Europe that have a much higher combined number of elections. That was i was mentioning the US states, to make a more proper comparison about the frequency of the experiment. But in all likelihood, the US will soon elect a female president before France does. But we are digressing here - I am not sure why you introduced the topic of women in politics.

So, when do you think a person with a Muslim-sounding *name* (the original question) will be eelected president of France? Not soon, right? And why?

Anonymous wrote:^^ The question was "Muslim name" , like, Hussein as middle name. It has already happened on the US.

A different questions is "elect a Muslim person", which can't be compared because Muslims account for 1% of the population in the US and 10% in France. The fact that a French presidential candidate from an openly Xenophobic and Islamophobic party, whose main rallying cry is to denounce immigration -- legal and illegal -- as the main threat to the French nation, get first place in opinion polls is not an encouraging sign.

ok, sorry. if you take as a sign of progress the fact that a Christian man was elected in the US even though he had a "Muslim sounding" middle name, then you are right. It is very heartening that a Muslim sounding middle name does not discourage American voters from voting for a Christian men. you are so ahead.

Anonymous wrote:^^ So, your measure of success of Muslim integration in the US is how many Muslims have been elected president or nominated as cabinet members -- even thought they are 1% of the population, whereas in France they are 10%? Ok, how many Latinos are considered serious candidates for presidential primaries in france, like they are in the US? None, right? Perhaps because Latinos comprise a small proportion of the French population? So I need to conclude that France I doing much worse integrating latinos?

How many Buddishts, for that matter?

The US is a federation of 50 states, like the EU is a union of 28. How many heads of state -- governor-- are female in the US? Quite a few, proportionally more than in the EU.

And were people of North African heritage subject to slavery for hundreds of years and legal segregation until 50 years ago, like the AAs were? If we take the 60s as the starting point of progress, as implied by your statement about Muslim presence in france, the US has done much more progress with AA issues -- although so much more remains to be done, obviously -- compared to French progress with Muslim issues. Remember, the terrorists were French born citizens.

My original question stand: when do you think a person with a Muslim name will be elected president of France?

I never said that, I was responding to a poster asking retorically when France would elect somebody with a Muslim sounding name as President. the idea that Muslims would be welcome with open arms in the US in high public offices is silly. Muslims are about 5% of the population in France (not 10%) most have come after the 60's and there have been several cabinet members in France in the past 10 years. zero in the United States.

as for the 28 states of Europe beign comparable with the 50 state, you really do not undertstand Europe at all. do you really think that Angela Merkel has the same weight of the governor of Massachusetts, or of any other state? do you think the president of the EU commission has the same power as Obama? in 1984 the US celebrated the first female vice president candidate. at the same time The UK had already had a female Prime Minister for five years.

Anonymous wrote:Dieudonne -- a French "comedian" whose repertoire consists mainly of anti-semitic rethoric, including an inverted nazi salute -- just said "I feel like I am Charlie Coulibaly." Repugnant. Those who compare him with CH are out of line.

The Paris prosecutor's office has apparently opened an investigation in to this remark. There has been a ton of hypocrisy in the aftermath of the Charlie Hebdo attack, but this takes the cake. I have never seen good intentions turn into a farce at rocket speed in this manner. Between events like this and the autocrats marching in the streets of Paris, "Je Suis Charlie" has been turned into a big joke.

^^ The question was "Muslim name" , like, Hussein as middle name. It has already happened on the US.

A different questions is "elect a Muslim person", which can't be compared because Muslims account for 1% of the population in the US and 10% in France. The fact that a French presidential candidate from an openly Xenophobic and Islamophobic party, whose main rallying cry is to denounce immigration -- legal and illegal -- as the main threat to the French nation, get first place in opinion polls is not an encouraging sign.

Anonymous wrote:^^ So, your measure of success of Muslim integration in the US is how many Muslims have been elected president or nominated as cabinet members -- even thought they are 1% of the population, whereas in France they are 10%? Ok, how many Latinos are considered serious candidates for presidential primaries in france, like they are in the US? None, right? Perhaps because Latinos comprise a small proportion of the French population? So I need to conclude that France I doing much worse integrating latinos?

How many Buddishts, for that matter?

The US is a federation of 50 states, like the EU is a union of 28. How many heads of state -- governor-- are female in the US? Quite a few, proportionally more than in the EU.

And were people of North African heritage subject to slavery for hundreds of years and legal segregation until 50 years ago, like the AAs were? If we take the 60s as the starting point of progress, as implied by your statement about Muslim presence in france, the US has done much more progress with AA issues -- although so much more remains to be done, obviously -- compared to French progress with Muslim issues. Remember, the terrorists were French born citizens.

My original question stand: when do you think a person with a Muslim name will be elected president of France?

the short answer is: likely before the US would ever elect one

Three million people turned out to support freedom of speech and life. I wonder if the same number turned out to protest Boko Haram's use of unwilling children as suicide bombers would it have any effect?

How do you stop their non-stop slaughter of the innocent? Now they are strapping bombs to 10-year old girls and sending them into crowded places.

"Europe can certainly do better, but it seems to be that it is doing much better already than the US even though the influx of Muslim immigrants is a fairly recent phenomen".

This is an hilarious statement, and shows your level of oblivion about how many Muslims feel in Europe, and how many white Europeans feel about Muslims In Europe.

^^ So, your measure of success of Muslim integration in the US is how many Muslims have been elected president or nominated as cabinet members -- even thought they are 1% of the population, whereas in France they are 10%? Ok, how many Latinos are considered serious candidates for presidential primaries in france, like they are in the US? None, right? Perhaps because Latinos comprise a small proportion of the French population? So I need to conclude that France I doing much worse integrating latinos?

How many Buddishts, for that matter?

The US is a federation of 50 states, like the EU is a union of 28. How many heads of state -- governor-- are female in the US? Quite a few, proportionally more than in the EU.

And were people of North African heritage subject to slavery for hundreds of years and legal segregation until 50 years ago, like the AAs were? If we take the 60s as the starting point of progress, as implied by your statement about Muslim presence in france, the US has done much more progress with AA issues -- although so much more remains to be done, obviously -- compared to French progress with Muslim issues. Remember, the terrorists were French born citizens.

My original question stand: when do you think a person with a Muslim name will be elected president of France?