Anonymous
Post 04/24/2023 15:51     Subject: Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Is the reason why Matsson needs to get the deal done quickly tied into how his own stock is going to drop shortly because of his harassment? Does that leave Shiv liable for not reporting something important about Matsson to ACN's own BOD?


Same PP again -- but if he was this vulnerable to the harassment story, why would he have told Shiv about it in the first place when he already had signs that the boys at least weren't eager for the deal he wanted? Did the fact that she left the boys on their own show Matsson she wasn't with them, and would potentially work in favor of the deal?

Why is Matsson on this speedy timeline, other than perhaps just to wreak havoc with the kids right after their father has died? While that might be a driver, there might be something other ticking time bomb for Matsson that's driving the deal speed and making him drive the price higher when by all accounts given the stock drop he should have been able to come in at a lower price. Maybe something is up with GoJo or he sees that there is something really valuable at RoyCo that the kids are missing.


I agree this could be it. I also think there might be something going on with GoJo that is driving his interest in ACN all of a sudden. This was a theory floated on the Vanity Fair Still Watching podcast today and I think it makes sense. Matsson is a more interesting character if his actions are driven by actual reasons and not just "look at this guy! he's a crazy billionaire!" It am hoping the show really lays clear his motivations at some point instead of making him just a general foil for the kids to replace Logan.
Anonymous
Post 04/24/2023 15:48     Subject: Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It seems obvious that Matsson offered the $$ to f*ck with Kendall and Roman. That’s why he asked Shiv to send him the photo of them. But does that mean Shiv understands that Kendall and Roman are trying to tank the deal? I wasn’t sure what to make of her take on the situation, besides trying to maximize it for herself.


My read on Shiv right now is that she is just looking for opportunities to stay relevant and leverage power. She feels shut out with Kendall and Roman as interim CEOs (and IS shut out, that's clear). During this episode, we saw her variously cozying up to the old folks (acting chummy with Frank when the email from Matsson came in, recommending Gerri to Matsson to help with his Ebba issues), getting closer to Matsson, and even maybe protecting/allying with Tom somewhat. We did not see her interacting with or allying with her brothers much, nor did we see her utter a single negative thing about either of them either. She's not scheming against them directly, she's shoring up her support elsewhere and looking for opportunities.

Contrast this with Kendall, who is throwing his weight around at the Waystar offices, getting very aggressive with Matsson, trying to freeze out the old guard, scheming even behind Roman's back (with Hugo, who is now on Matsson's kill list, which is relevant here), trying to torpedo this deal and using Greg and Jess as pawns to do so.

Shiv is quietly making friends, Kendall is loudly making enemies. Roman is acting emotionally, going along with Kendall's schemes, its he go-between with Connor regarding the funeral -- in a very in-between place.

If you did a power ranking of Roy siblings by week, last week it would have gone 1-Kendall, 2-Roman, 3-Shiv, 4-Connor. This week, it's 1-Kendall, 2-Shiv, 3-Roman, 4-Connor. Shiv's on the rise, Roman's on the decline, Kendall's lead is on thin ice and he might not realize how thin.


I would already put Shiv about Kendall after her convo with Matsson, and her brothers meeting with him on the mountain top.


And, the fact that so many women were kept around---Gerri, Carolina, Ebba--Shiv...the women are gaining ground.


He’s admitted to sexually harassing an employee and is now insulating himself. “Gaining ground” lmao

Incredibly stupid to admit that to an adversary. I love that Shiv is keeping that nugget to herself.


But doesn't Shiv herself admit that that's the sort of material event that Matsson might need to report to his BOD -- and doesn't that mean that she is now obligated to report it to Royco's BOD (and she's not)? Seems like she was notified of Matsson's misconduct but Matsson hasn't been notified of ACN's misconduct with the presidential candidate?
Anonymous
Post 04/24/2023 15:40     Subject: Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:Is the reason why Matsson needs to get the deal done quickly tied into how his own stock is going to drop shortly because of his harassment? Does that leave Shiv liable for not reporting something important about Matsson to ACN's own BOD?


Same PP again -- but if he was this vulnerable to the harassment story, why would he have told Shiv about it in the first place when he already had signs that the boys at least weren't eager for the deal he wanted? Did the fact that she left the boys on their own show Matsson she wasn't with them, and would potentially work in favor of the deal?

Why is Matsson on this speedy timeline, other than perhaps just to wreak havoc with the kids right after their father has died? While that might be a driver, there might be something other ticking time bomb for Matsson that's driving the deal speed and making him drive the price higher when by all accounts given the stock drop he should have been able to come in at a lower price. Maybe something is up with GoJo or he sees that there is something really valuable at RoyCo that the kids are missing.
Anonymous
Post 04/24/2023 15:38     Subject: Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It seems obvious that Matsson offered the $$ to f*ck with Kendall and Roman. That’s why he asked Shiv to send him the photo of them. But does that mean Shiv understands that Kendall and Roman are trying to tank the deal? I wasn’t sure what to make of her take on the situation, besides trying to maximize it for herself.


My read on Shiv right now is that she is just looking for opportunities to stay relevant and leverage power. She feels shut out with Kendall and Roman as interim CEOs (and IS shut out, that's clear). During this episode, we saw her variously cozying up to the old folks (acting chummy with Frank when the email from Matsson came in, recommending Gerri to Matsson to help with his Ebba issues), getting closer to Matsson, and even maybe protecting/allying with Tom somewhat. We did not see her interacting with or allying with her brothers much, nor did we see her utter a single negative thing about either of them either. She's not scheming against them directly, she's shoring up her support elsewhere and looking for opportunities.

Contrast this with Kendall, who is throwing his weight around at the Waystar offices, getting very aggressive with Matsson, trying to freeze out the old guard, scheming even behind Roman's back (with Hugo, who is now on Matsson's kill list, which is relevant here), trying to torpedo this deal and using Greg and Jess as pawns to do so.

Shiv is quietly making friends, Kendall is loudly making enemies. Roman is acting emotionally, going along with Kendall's schemes, its he go-between with Connor regarding the funeral -- in a very in-between place.

If you did a power ranking of Roy siblings by week, last week it would have gone 1-Kendall, 2-Roman, 3-Shiv, 4-Connor. This week, it's 1-Kendall, 2-Shiv, 3-Roman, 4-Connor. Shiv's on the rise, Roman's on the decline, Kendall's lead is on thin ice and he might not realize how thin.


I would already put Shiv about Kendall after her convo with Matsson, and her brothers meeting with him on the mountain top.


And, the fact that so many women were kept around---Gerri, Carolina, Ebba--Shiv...the women are gaining ground.


He’s admitted to sexually harassing an employee and is now insulating himself. “Gaining ground” lmao

Incredibly stupid to admit that to an adversary. I love that Shiv is keeping that nugget to herself.
Anonymous
Post 04/24/2023 15:36     Subject: Succession - Season 4
Is the reason why Matsson needs to get the deal done quickly tied into how his own stock is going to drop shortly because of his harassment? Does that leave Shiv liable for not reporting something important about Matsson to ACN's own BOD?
Anonymous
Post 04/24/2023 15:14     Subject: Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It seems obvious that Matsson offered the $$ to f*ck with Kendall and Roman. That’s why he asked Shiv to send him the photo of them. But does that mean Shiv understands that Kendall and Roman are trying to tank the deal? I wasn’t sure what to make of her take on the situation, besides trying to maximize it for herself.


My read on Shiv right now is that she is just looking for opportunities to stay relevant and leverage power. She feels shut out with Kendall and Roman as interim CEOs (and IS shut out, that's clear). During this episode, we saw her variously cozying up to the old folks (acting chummy with Frank when the email from Matsson came in, recommending Gerri to Matsson to help with his Ebba issues), getting closer to Matsson, and even maybe protecting/allying with Tom somewhat. We did not see her interacting with or allying with her brothers much, nor did we see her utter a single negative thing about either of them either. She's not scheming against them directly, she's shoring up her support elsewhere and looking for opportunities.

Contrast this with Kendall, who is throwing his weight around at the Waystar offices, getting very aggressive with Matsson, trying to freeze out the old guard, scheming even behind Roman's back (with Hugo, who is now on Matsson's kill list, which is relevant here), trying to torpedo this deal and using Greg and Jess as pawns to do so.

Shiv is quietly making friends, Kendall is loudly making enemies. Roman is acting emotionally, going along with Kendall's schemes, its he go-between with Connor regarding the funeral -- in a very in-between place.

If you did a power ranking of Roy siblings by week, last week it would have gone 1-Kendall, 2-Roman, 3-Shiv, 4-Connor. This week, it's 1-Kendall, 2-Shiv, 3-Roman, 4-Connor. Shiv's on the rise, Roman's on the decline, Kendall's lead is on thin ice and he might not realize how thin.


I would already put Shiv about Kendall after her convo with Matsson, and her brothers meeting with him on the mountain top.


And, the fact that so many women were kept around---Gerri, Carolina, Ebba--Shiv...the women are gaining ground.


He’s admitted to sexually harassing an employee and is now insulating himself. “Gaining ground” lmao
Anonymous
Post 04/24/2023 14:23     Subject: Succession - Season 4
Given that all the season finale titles have derived from Walt Whitman's Dream Song 29 in some way, I wonder what line of the poem the finale will derive from, and what that will say about the series?

https://www.distractify.com/p/all-the-bells-say-succession-meaning

Here's the poem fwiw:

There sat down, once, a thing on Henry’s heart / so heavy, if he had a hundred years / & more, & weeping, sleepless, in all them time / Henry could not make good. / Starts again always in Henry’s ears / the little cough somewhere, an odour, a chime. //

And there is another thing he has in mind / like a grave Sienese face a thousand years / would fail to blur the still profiled reproach of. Ghastly, / with open eyes, he attends, blind. / All the bells say: too late. This is not for tears; / thinking. //

But never did Henry, as he thought he did, / end anyone and hacks her body up / and hide the pieces, where they may be found. / He knows: he went over everyone, & nobody’s missing. / Often he reckons, in the dawn, them up. / Nobody is ever missing. //

Maybe "Too late" -- but he's already used This is Not for Tears and All the Bells Say, which surround that. So maybe, if one of the kids really does betray everyone else, "And hide the pieces, where they may be found." Or maybe "In the Dawn."
Anonymous
Post 04/24/2023 14:07     Subject: Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:It seems obvious that Matsson offered the $$ to f*ck with Kendall and Roman. That’s why he asked Shiv to send him the photo of them. But does that mean Shiv understands that Kendall and Roman are trying to tank the deal? I wasn’t sure what to make of her take on the situation, besides trying to maximize it for herself.


I don't think Shiv understood they were trying to tank the deal. Remember that last time they all discussed the deal together before the mountaintop, the siblings and the old guard, Kendall said the aim was to get Matsson to offer something like 147/share for the company without ACN, or 188 PLUS A PREMIUM for the company with ACN. So when Shiv told Matsson he could get it all if he just added a little something extra, she was absolutely telling the truth, not doing any dance -- that's what everyone agreed would get the job done. That's why it's ironic Kendall and Roman didn't tell Shiv they wanted to kill the deal because they didn't think she could bluff. She wound up absolutely selling the deal (against their wishes) because she didn't bluff at all.

Who knows what she would have done if they'd told her about wanting to kill it. I think she wouldn't have agreed to kill it, honestly, because she does seem to have some inkling that Kendall is on a power trip to be in charge of everything.
Anonymous
Post 04/24/2023 13:48     Subject: Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It seems obvious that Matsson offered the $$ to f*ck with Kendall and Roman. That’s why he asked Shiv to send him the photo of them. But does that mean Shiv understands that Kendall and Roman are trying to tank the deal? I wasn’t sure what to make of her take on the situation, besides trying to maximize it for herself.


My read on Shiv right now is that she is just looking for opportunities to stay relevant and leverage power. She feels shut out with Kendall and Roman as interim CEOs (and IS shut out, that's clear). During this episode, we saw her variously cozying up to the old folks (acting chummy with Frank when the email from Matsson came in, recommending Gerri to Matsson to help with his Ebba issues), getting closer to Matsson, and even maybe protecting/allying with Tom somewhat. We did not see her interacting with or allying with her brothers much, nor did we see her utter a single negative thing about either of them either. She's not scheming against them directly, she's shoring up her support elsewhere and looking for opportunities.

Contrast this with Kendall, who is throwing his weight around at the Waystar offices, getting very aggressive with Matsson, trying to freeze out the old guard, scheming even behind Roman's back (with Hugo, who is now on Matsson's kill list, which is relevant here), trying to torpedo this deal and using Greg and Jess as pawns to do so.

Shiv is quietly making friends, Kendall is loudly making enemies. Roman is acting emotionally, going along with Kendall's schemes, its he go-between with Connor regarding the funeral -- in a very in-between place.

If you did a power ranking of Roy siblings by week, last week it would have gone 1-Kendall, 2-Roman, 3-Shiv, 4-Connor. This week, it's 1-Kendall, 2-Shiv, 3-Roman, 4-Connor. Shiv's on the rise, Roman's on the decline, Kendall's lead is on thin ice and he might not realize how thin.


I would already put Shiv about Kendall after her convo with Matsson, and her brothers meeting with him on the mountain top.


And, the fact that so many women were kept around---Gerri, Carolina, Ebba--Shiv...the women are gaining ground.


I noticed this too, but think it might be an angle that Matsson is working. His culture at Gojo seems very bro-y -- he even says as much regarding Ebba, who is the only woman on the team he brings to Norway. I wonder if his plan is to use the Waystar women to help him get Kendall and Roman out of the way, and install his team of dudes a the top of everything, including ATN.

A lot of European men are shockingly misogynist. Even when they have progressive politics. It's very deeply engrained in a lot of culture. I wouldn't necessarily expect it as much in Scandinavia, but I can't count the number of times I've heard an educated, seemingly progressive European man say something jaw-droppinly misogynist (and/or racist) in casual dinner conversation. A lot of peopel in Europe still believe in a kind of Nazi-light geneticism and they don't even consider themselves prejudiced -- they just think women and people of color are genetically inferior. I am very much getting this vibe from Matsson. He is off.
Anonymous
Post 04/24/2023 13:43     Subject: Re:Succession - Season 4
Another thing I noticed is that they showed Roman unpacking medication in his room in Norway. It's from a distance -- could be prescription, could be Advil, could be anything. I just noticed it because they also showed him taking a pill off his dad's desk last week.

He seems ultra-stressed and unstable right now, freaking out about calls/texts from Connor and then his blowup at Matsson. Notably, his jokes weren't funny this week. Normally even his darkest humor gets a chuckle from me, but I didn't even find his digs at Greg particularly amusing this week. And his jokes in the meeting at Waystar at the start of the episode, and in the initial meeting with Matsson, just came off immature and bitter.

Would not be surprised to learn that Roman is self-medicating and not at all stable at the moment. Logan's death combined with Gerri completely freezing him out after Logan made him fire her -- he basically lost both his father and mother figure within the span of a few hours. He's screwed up.
Anonymous
Post 04/24/2023 13:42     Subject: Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It seems obvious that Matsson offered the $$ to f*ck with Kendall and Roman. That’s why he asked Shiv to send him the photo of them. But does that mean Shiv understands that Kendall and Roman are trying to tank the deal? I wasn’t sure what to make of her take on the situation, besides trying to maximize it for herself.


My read on Shiv right now is that she is just looking for opportunities to stay relevant and leverage power. She feels shut out with Kendall and Roman as interim CEOs (and IS shut out, that's clear). During this episode, we saw her variously cozying up to the old folks (acting chummy with Frank when the email from Matsson came in, recommending Gerri to Matsson to help with his Ebba issues), getting closer to Matsson, and even maybe protecting/allying with Tom somewhat. We did not see her interacting with or allying with her brothers much, nor did we see her utter a single negative thing about either of them either. She's not scheming against them directly, she's shoring up her support elsewhere and looking for opportunities.

Contrast this with Kendall, who is throwing his weight around at the Waystar offices, getting very aggressive with Matsson, trying to freeze out the old guard, scheming even behind Roman's back (with Hugo, who is now on Matsson's kill list, which is relevant here), trying to torpedo this deal and using Greg and Jess as pawns to do so.

Shiv is quietly making friends, Kendall is loudly making enemies. Roman is acting emotionally, going along with Kendall's schemes, its he go-between with Connor regarding the funeral -- in a very in-between place.

If you did a power ranking of Roy siblings by week, last week it would have gone 1-Kendall, 2-Roman, 3-Shiv, 4-Connor. This week, it's 1-Kendall, 2-Shiv, 3-Roman, 4-Connor. Shiv's on the rise, Roman's on the decline, Kendall's lead is on thin ice and he might not realize how thin.


I would already put Shiv about Kendall after her convo with Matsson, and her brothers meeting with him on the mountain top.


And, the fact that so many women were kept around---Gerri, Carolina, Ebba--Shiv...the women are gaining ground.
Anonymous
Post 04/24/2023 13:41     Subject: Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It seems obvious that Matsson offered the $$ to f*ck with Kendall and Roman. That’s why he asked Shiv to send him the photo of them. But does that mean Shiv understands that Kendall and Roman are trying to tank the deal? I wasn’t sure what to make of her take on the situation, besides trying to maximize it for herself.


My read on Shiv right now is that she is just looking for opportunities to stay relevant and leverage power. She feels shut out with Kendall and Roman as interim CEOs (and IS shut out, that's clear). During this episode, we saw her variously cozying up to the old folks (acting chummy with Frank when the email from Matsson came in, recommending Gerri to Matsson to help with his Ebba issues), getting closer to Matsson, and even maybe protecting/allying with Tom somewhat. We did not see her interacting with or allying with her brothers much, nor did we see her utter a single negative thing about either of them either. She's not scheming against them directly, she's shoring up her support elsewhere and looking for opportunities.

Contrast this with Kendall, who is throwing his weight around at the Waystar offices, getting very aggressive with Matsson, trying to freeze out the old guard, scheming even behind Roman's back (with Hugo, who is now on Matsson's kill list, which is relevant here), trying to torpedo this deal and using Greg and Jess as pawns to do so.

Shiv is quietly making friends, Kendall is loudly making enemies. Roman is acting emotionally, going along with Kendall's schemes, its he go-between with Connor regarding the funeral -- in a very in-between place.

If you did a power ranking of Roy siblings by week, last week it would have gone 1-Kendall, 2-Roman, 3-Shiv, 4-Connor. This week, it's 1-Kendall, 2-Shiv, 3-Roman, 4-Connor. Shiv's on the rise, Roman's on the decline, Kendall's lead is on thin ice and he might not realize how thin.


I would already put Shiv about Kendall after her convo with Matsson, and her brothers meeting with him on the mountain top.
Anonymous
Post 04/24/2023 13:39     Subject: Re:Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Anyone have a read on Shiv's drinking during the episode? It felt emphasized in the scene with Matsson and also on the plane home when everyone was having champagne. Like they made a point of showing her taking drinks and tossing her head back. Curious if people thought was really drinking or making it look like she was, and if she was drinking, if that has any bearing on her feelings about her pregnancy. I'm not sure what to make of it.

I thought it was interesting in the scene with Matsson when offers her the cocaine and she acts interested but then the conversation shifts and she never has any. It made me think if she was just skillfully making it look like she was partaking in alcohol/drugs by holding alcohol, saying yes to things offered, even appearing to take sips of things, but actually managing to avoid it somehow. I think that would be pretty hard in that environment but Shiv was doing a good job generally of playing it cool when her brothers, Tom, and the grays were not doing such a good job. Maybe she's just better at this stuff because of the time she spent in politics and outside of Waystar. She's less of a bubble baby than most of them are.


I don't have a read and I don't want to go down a total rabbit hole, but it was noticeable. And one reason I say that is because on the boat for Kendall's wedding Shiv refuses champagne and asks for water, which seemed odd. And that was before we knew she was pregnant. I predicted a pregnancy for her in this last season so I admit my radar might be up more than normal.

I almost wonder if Shiv is still pregnant? She's really the least maternal person, like ever. I refuse to believe she just oops! got pregnant, but maybe it was before Tom betrayed her.


Yes I totally do not want to get into a debate about drinking during pregnancy, but I felt like the editing was very focused on it. I had actually forgotten she was pregnant but it was the frequent closeups of her either holding a drink or sipping one that reminded me.

My sense if this pregnancy was accidental is that she and Tom had sex during/after their break up and that led her to slip up with birth control. I know I've switched birth control or gone off it at verious times for reasons unrelated to wanting to get pregnant (problem with side effects, having to stop one form before getting another, etc.) so if your life was in total turmoil when that was happening and you wound up sleeping with your estranged husband, you could maybe make a mistake.

I would find it very surprising and honestly pretty inconsistent if they try to tell us this was intentional because it just does not line up with anything she's ever said on the matter.


On your last point - I think we may never know, but Shiv has been undeniably emotional about her father's death. Even bringing up the idea of him rocking grandbabies to sleep. Which is ridiculous, but also kind of tracks with her push pull approach to intimacy. She marries Tom but then immediately pushes him away from any real intimacy by telling him she still wants to sleep with other people. She seems calculating, but she also wants real family connection. It's like she has these momentary lapses and morphs into a normal person before she realizes and puts her shield back up.


Pregnancy hormones.
Anonymous
Post 04/24/2023 13:39     Subject: Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:Seems likely that Shiv got played by Mattsson. Her main character detail is that she’s not as smart as she thinks she is.


Agree, but I think he's playing all of them. I think the whole point is that the Roy kids are outmatched on all sides, by Matsson, by people in their own organization, but Nan Pierce, even by people like Stewie.

I think they are going to end up still rich but totally stripped of any power and control, because they arrogantly think they are entitled to something because of their name, but simply lack the intelligence or strategy to win a battle for control of any aspect of the company.
Anonymous
Post 04/24/2023 13:38     Subject: Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:Anyone notice that Kendall was back on his old BS on the ride in with the rap playing, same as he was doing when he was running things for his dad (and screwing things up)?

Him wanting to tank such a pretty great deal to retain control over everything seems like terrible business instincts. Seems like they really should get out while they can or the other parts of the company will lose value. But he wants to run it to prove he can.


It also seems MENTAL. He had his breakdown around that time. If he does have some form of mental illness---stress (like death of his dad---the accident) exacerbates it.