^"no", not 'now'.

Anonymous wrote:Why did Mattson keep Tom? I don't remember Shiv specifically telling Matsson to x Tom or not -- did she?

I remember the brothers asking Shiv and she declined to ask them to x him. Was Matsson following their directive there? Does that mean the brothers told Mattson to x everyone else on the Kill List?

What else does the Kill List mean for this episode, besides the obvious list of folks to let go? Remember when Logan told Kendall that he had to be a killer to be in charge? (And Kendall is a killer, but it was a different kind of killer -- of a waiter.) Does Matsson have his own Kill List? He's shed a lot of his own blood already for whatever weird reason. Maybe for the boys the deal itself is the Kill List.

She told him their marriage was kaput. And he even point blank asked her if she wanted him to get rid of Tom. And Shiv shook her head 'now' and said it doesn't bother her he's there or something to that affect WHICH I read as---if he's the father of her child she is weighing being amicable or getting back together which we saw at the end of the episode when she asked him Tom out to dinner/get together.

Seems likely that Shiv got played by Mattsson. Her main character detail is that she’s not as smart as she thinks she is.

I'm more interested in the paternity. I am betting it's not Tom's.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone have a read on Shiv's drinking during the episode? It felt emphasized in the scene with Matsson and also on the plane home when everyone was having champagne. Like they made a point of showing her taking drinks and tossing her head back. Curious if people thought was really drinking or making it look like she was, and if she was drinking, if that has any bearing on her feelings about her pregnancy. I'm not sure what to make of it.

I thought it was interesting in the scene with Matsson when offers her the cocaine and she acts interested but then the conversation shifts and she never has any. It made me think if she was just skillfully making it look like she was partaking in alcohol/drugs by holding alcohol, saying yes to things offered, even appearing to take sips of things, but actually managing to avoid it somehow. I think that would be pretty hard in that environment but Shiv was doing a good job generally of playing it cool when her brothers, Tom, and the grays were not doing such a good job. Maybe she's just better at this stuff because of the time she spent in politics and outside of Waystar. She's less of a bubble baby than most of them are.

They made a big show of her not doing the cocaine. And we see her with a drink but there’s no evidence she has more than one per day. Early in my pregnancy I always had a glass of wine at family gatherings so my mom would leave me alone.

The also show her throwing back the scotch or whiskey or whatever she is drinking with Matsson. It felt different in nature from she was sipping champagne on the plane.

I just feel like they wouldn't be zooming in on these things if it's not going to come up later. Presumable people are going to find out about the pregnancy at some point, and I'm worried that photos or anecdotes about her drinking (or even being in close proximity to or being alleged to have done cocaine) might get used to discredit her.

Worried her pregnancy is going to get used against her in a really sexist, devious, and grotesque way and that these moments might play into it. Would definitely not put it past Kendall and Roman to do that if they feel threatened by her at some point. Also wouldn't put it past Matsson. Any of these guys would jump at the chance to use her pregnancy or her perceive irresponsibility as a mom to gain the upper hand on her.

Anonymous wrote:Anyone have a read on Shiv's drinking during the episode? It felt emphasized in the scene with Matsson and also on the plane home when everyone was having champagne. Like they made a point of showing her taking drinks and tossing her head back. Curious if people thought was really drinking or making it look like she was, and if she was drinking, if that has any bearing on her feelings about her pregnancy. I'm not sure what to make of it.

I thought it was interesting in the scene with Matsson when offers her the cocaine and she acts interested but then the conversation shifts and she never has any. It made me think if she was just skillfully making it look like she was partaking in alcohol/drugs by holding alcohol, saying yes to things offered, even appearing to take sips of things, but actually managing to avoid it somehow. I think that would be pretty hard in that environment but Shiv was doing a good job generally of playing it cool when her brothers, Tom, and the grays were not doing such a good job. Maybe she's just better at this stuff because of the time she spent in politics and outside of Waystar. She's less of a bubble baby than most of them are.

They made a big show of her not doing the cocaine. And we see her with a drink but there’s no evidence she has more than one per day. Early in my pregnancy I always had a glass of wine at family gatherings so my mom would leave me alone.

Anonymous wrote:It seems obvious that Matsson offered the $$ to f*ck with Kendall and Roman. That’s why he asked Shiv to send him the photo of them. But does that mean Shiv understands that Kendall and Roman are trying to tank the deal? I wasn’t sure what to make of her take on the situation, besides trying to maximize it for herself.

My read on Shiv right now is that she is just looking for opportunities to stay relevant and leverage power. She feels shut out with Kendall and Roman as interim CEOs (and IS shut out, that's clear). During this episode, we saw her variously cozying up to the old folks (acting chummy with Frank when the email from Matsson came in, recommending Gerri to Matsson to help with his Ebba issues), getting closer to Matsson, and even maybe protecting/allying with Tom somewhat. We did not see her interacting with or allying with her brothers much, nor did we see her utter a single negative thing about either of them either. She's not scheming against them directly, she's shoring up her support elsewhere and looking for opportunities.

Contrast this with Kendall, who is throwing his weight around at the Waystar offices, getting very aggressive with Matsson, trying to freeze out the old guard, scheming even behind Roman's back (with Hugo, who is now on Matsson's kill list, which is relevant here), trying to torpedo this deal and using Greg and Jess as pawns to do so.

Shiv is quietly making friends, Kendall is loudly making enemies. Roman is acting emotionally, going along with Kendall's schemes, its he go-between with Connor regarding the funeral -- in a very in-between place.

If you did a power ranking of Roy siblings by week, last week it would have gone 1-Kendall, 2-Roman, 3-Shiv, 4-Connor. This week, it's 1-Kendall, 2-Shiv, 3-Roman, 4-Connor. Shiv's on the rise, Roman's on the decline, Kendall's lead is on thin ice and he might not realize how thin.

It seems obvious that Matsson offered the $$ to f*ck with Kendall and Roman. That’s why he asked Shiv to send him the photo of them. But does that mean Shiv understands that Kendall and Roman are trying to tank the deal? I wasn’t sure what to make of her take on the situation, besides trying to maximize it for herself.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why did Mattson keep Tom? I don't remember Shiv specifically telling Matsson to x Tom or not -- did she?

I remember the brothers asking Shiv and she declined to ask them to x him. Was Matsson following their directive there? Does that mean the brothers told Mattson to x everyone else on the Kill List?

What else does the Kill List mean for this episode, besides the obvious list of folks to let go? Remember when Logan told Kendall that he had to be a killer to be in charge? (And Kendall is a killer, but it was a different kind of killer -- of a waiter.) Does Matsson have his own Kill List? He's shed a lot of his own blood already for whatever weird reason. Maybe for the boys the deal itself is the Kill List.

the Kill List is Matsson's kill list. It's what happens when two large organizations merge and you have people with redundant functions/titles. So Matsson gets rid of Hugo but keeps Karolina and Ebba for comms, etc.

I know that! There are often double meanings in the titles, and that's what I'm asking about.

Anonymous wrote:Why did Mattson keep Tom? I don't remember Shiv specifically telling Matsson to x Tom or not -- did she?

I remember the brothers asking Shiv and she declined to ask them to x him. Was Matsson following their directive there? Does that mean the brothers told Mattson to x everyone else on the Kill List?

What else does the Kill List mean for this episode, besides the obvious list of folks to let go? Remember when Logan told Kendall that he had to be a killer to be in charge? (And Kendall is a killer, but it was a different kind of killer -- of a waiter.) Does Matsson have his own Kill List? He's shed a lot of his own blood already for whatever weird reason. Maybe for the boys the deal itself is the Kill List.

the Kill List is Matsson's kill list. It's what happens when two large organizations merge and you have people with redundant functions/titles. So Matsson gets rid of Hugo but keeps Karolina and Ebba for comms, etc.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone have a read on Shiv's drinking during the episode? It felt emphasized in the scene with Matsson and also on the plane home when everyone was having champagne. Like they made a point of showing her taking drinks and tossing her head back. Curious if people thought was really drinking or making it look like she was, and if she was drinking, if that has any bearing on her feelings about her pregnancy. I'm not sure what to make of it.

I thought it was interesting in the scene with Matsson when offers her the cocaine and she acts interested but then the conversation shifts and she never has any. It made me think if she was just skillfully making it look like she was partaking in alcohol/drugs by holding alcohol, saying yes to things offered, even appearing to take sips of things, but actually managing to avoid it somehow. I think that would be pretty hard in that environment but Shiv was doing a good job generally of playing it cool when her brothers, Tom, and the grays were not doing such a good job. Maybe she's just better at this stuff because of the time she spent in politics and outside of Waystar. She's less of a bubble baby than most of them are.

I don't have a read and I don't want to go down a total rabbit hole, but it was noticeable. And one reason I say that is because on the boat for Kendall's wedding Shiv refuses champagne and asks for water, which seemed odd. And that was before we knew she was pregnant. I predicted a pregnancy for her in this last season so I admit my radar might be up more than normal.

I almost wonder if Shiv is still pregnant? She's really the least maternal person, like ever. I refuse to believe she just oops! got pregnant, but maybe it was before Tom betrayed her.

Yes I totally do not want to get into a debate about drinking during pregnancy, but I felt like the editing was very focused on it. I had actually forgotten she was pregnant but it was the frequent closeups of her either holding a drink or sipping one that reminded me.

My sense if this pregnancy was accidental is that she and Tom had sex during/after their break up and that led her to slip up with birth control. I know I've switched birth control or gone off it at verious times for reasons unrelated to wanting to get pregnant (problem with side effects, having to stop one form before getting another, etc.) so if your life was in total turmoil when that was happening and you wound up sleeping with your estranged husband, you could maybe make a mistake.

I would find it very surprising and honestly pretty inconsistent if they try to tell us this was intentional because it just does not line up with anything she's ever said on the matter.

On your last point - I think we may never know, but Shiv has been undeniably emotional about her father's death. Even bringing up the idea of him rocking grandbabies to sleep. Which is ridiculous, but also kind of tracks with her push pull approach to intimacy. She marries Tom but then immediately pushes him away from any real intimacy by telling him she still wants to sleep with other people. She seems calculating, but she also wants real family connection. It's like she has these momentary lapses and morphs into a normal person before she realizes and puts her shield back up.

Why did Mattson keep Tom? I don't remember Shiv specifically telling Matsson to x Tom or not -- did she?

I remember the brothers asking Shiv and she declined to ask them to x him. Was Matsson following their directive there? Does that mean the brothers told Mattson to x everyone else on the Kill List?

What else does the Kill List mean for this episode, besides the obvious list of folks to let go? Remember when Logan told Kendall that he had to be a killer to be in charge? (And Kendall is a killer, but it was a different kind of killer -- of a waiter.) Does Matsson have his own Kill List? He's shed a lot of his own blood already for whatever weird reason. Maybe for the boys the deal itself is the Kill List.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone have a read on Shiv's drinking during the episode? It felt emphasized in the scene with Matsson and also on the plane home when everyone was having champagne. Like they made a point of showing her taking drinks and tossing her head back. Curious if people thought was really drinking or making it look like she was, and if she was drinking, if that has any bearing on her feelings about her pregnancy. I'm not sure what to make of it.

I thought it was interesting in the scene with Matsson when offers her the cocaine and she acts interested but then the conversation shifts and she never has any. It made me think if she was just skillfully making it look like she was partaking in alcohol/drugs by holding alcohol, saying yes to things offered, even appearing to take sips of things, but actually managing to avoid it somehow. I think that would be pretty hard in that environment but Shiv was doing a good job generally of playing it cool when her brothers, Tom, and the grays were not doing such a good job. Maybe she's just better at this stuff because of the time she spent in politics and outside of Waystar. She's less of a bubble baby than most of them are.

I don't have a read and I don't want to go down a total rabbit hole, but it was noticeable. And one reason I say that is because on the boat for Kendall's wedding Shiv refuses champagne and asks for water, which seemed odd. And that was before we knew she was pregnant. I predicted a pregnancy for her in this last season so I admit my radar might be up more than normal.

I almost wonder if Shiv is still pregnant? She's really the least maternal person, like ever. I refuse to believe she just oops! got pregnant, but maybe it was before Tom betrayed her.

Yes I totally do not want to get into a debate about drinking during pregnancy, but I felt like the editing was very focused on it. I had actually forgotten she was pregnant but it was the frequent closeups of her either holding a drink or sipping one that reminded me.

My sense if this pregnancy was accidental is that she and Tom had sex during/after their break up and that led her to slip up with birth control. I know I've switched birth control or gone off it at verious times for reasons unrelated to wanting to get pregnant (problem with side effects, having to stop one form before getting another, etc.) so if your life was in total turmoil when that was happening and you wound up sleeping with your estranged husband, you could maybe make a mistake.

I would find it very surprising and honestly pretty inconsistent if they try to tell us this was intentional because it just does not line up with anything she's ever said on the matter.

Anonymous wrote:Anyone have a read on Shiv's drinking during the episode? It felt emphasized in the scene with Matsson and also on the plane home when everyone was having champagne. Like they made a point of showing her taking drinks and tossing her head back. Curious if people thought was really drinking or making it look like she was, and if she was drinking, if that has any bearing on her feelings about her pregnancy. I'm not sure what to make of it.

I thought it was interesting in the scene with Matsson when offers her the cocaine and she acts interested but then the conversation shifts and she never has any. It made me think if she was just skillfully making it look like she was partaking in alcohol/drugs by holding alcohol, saying yes to things offered, even appearing to take sips of things, but actually managing to avoid it somehow. I think that would be pretty hard in that environment but Shiv was doing a good job generally of playing it cool when her brothers, Tom, and the grays were not doing such a good job. Maybe she's just better at this stuff because of the time she spent in politics and outside of Waystar. She's less of a bubble baby than most of them are.

I don't have a read and I don't want to go down a total rabbit hole, but it was noticeable. And one reason I say that is because on the boat for Kendall's wedding Shiv refuses champagne and asks for water, which seemed odd. And that was before we knew she was pregnant. I predicted a pregnancy for her in this last season so I admit my radar might be up more than normal.

I almost wonder if Shiv is still pregnant? She's really the least maternal person, like ever. I refuse to believe she just oops! got pregnant, but maybe it was before Tom betrayed her.

Anonymous wrote:

When Shiv took their picture, the boys didn’t look happy. Does this reveal to Mattson they were truly trying to kill the deal?

After the debacle on the mountaintop Mattson knew that a) the siblings are not all on the same page; and b) Roman, at least does not want to sell, and Kendall is just a mess. Both Roman and Kendall are operating from a place of emotion. So he's screwing them over because he's kind of a psycho. Mattson knows that Roman and Kendall will find this sale a hollow victory, but that they won't have a choice but to take the deal.

I think what tanks this deal is that ATN is now a defacto comms shop for the Republican nominee for president. That's a variable that Mattson didn't know and doesn't understand. There will be a lot of pressure to hold ATN back from the deal in the end.

Definitely agree that there is some kind of controversy brewing over ATN. For me it hinges on whether Matsson really doesn't understand what ATN is or how it fits into Waystar, or if he does but is pretending not to as a negotiating tactic. I honestly think it could go either way. On the one hand, he is foreign and his advisors are foreign and they truly might not understand that ATN's value is not really as a media property in the same way the movie studio is, for instance. But on the other hand, he had agreed to carve it out and is suddenly demanding it be included, and while he's foreign, he also seems to be good at reading people and understanding their motivations. So I think it could go either way, but that ATN, the presidential election, and the deal are all going to collide somehow when the season hits its apex.

We also know from season trailers that we are getting interaction with the leading Republic candidate (name is escaping me at the moment) soon, maybe at the funeral. Plus they've been teasing a Syd firing and maybe something with Tom at ATN for several episodes now.