Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It the 1L crim law discussion- if you shoot someone jumping from the Empire State Building on the way down, it’s still murder

Wait, is this for real? How could that be murder?! Isn't "but for causation" relevant here-- the person would have died anyway, not "but for the shooting." No???

(Sorry, I've complained above about this thread being derailed but I just couldn't NOT ask about this!)

A man has terminal cancer and will die within a week. Are you allowed to shoot him with impunity? Feels the same to me.

Not really though. Did you watch the full video? When he was on his feet going into the cop car he kept screaming “i can’t breathe” “i can’t breath” “I’m going to die” “I’m going to die” over and over again. This is besides the point for this argument, but he then asked to be taken out of the car and put onto the ground. So the question is if he was already suffering something prior to the restraint that was causing his death and did cause his death.

A panic attack, likely. He was afraid for his life. Given the outcome, that fear was justified.

You can see in the video that the other officers got off of Floyd but stayed kneeled next to him. It looks like they questioned what Chauvin was doing at the end but still deferred to him. Their body language shows worry, but they still did nothing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It the 1L crim law discussion- if you shoot someone jumping from the Empire State Building on the way down, it’s still murder

Wait, is this for real? How could that be murder?! Isn't "but for causation" relevant here-- the person would have died anyway, not "but for the shooting." No???

(Sorry, I've complained above about this thread being derailed but I just couldn't NOT ask about this!)

A man has terminal cancer and will die within a week. Are you allowed to shoot him with impunity? Feels the same to me.

Not really though. Did you watch the full video? When he was on his feet going into the cop car he kept screaming “i can’t breathe” “i can’t breath” “I’m going to die” “I’m going to die” over and over again. This is besides the point for this argument, but he then asked to be taken out of the car and put onto the ground. So the question is if he was already suffering something prior to the restraint that was causing his death and did cause his death.

Since Floyd did not comply or cooperate with his arrest, complaining in the car that he was hurting and couldn’t breath, that skewed the police’s view of him if he was crying wolf when he said the same things on the ground. It would appear that he didn’t want to get arrested because he had drugs in his mouth, you can see it on the floor in the cruiser. It doesn’t excuse how he was treated once pulled to the ground, the use of force was excessive, and at no time did Chauvin render aid. I think it was a power trip for Chauvin and used his badge to show the bystanders he had the authority and there was no way they would tell him his job. I think he will be charged. As stated earlier, Chauvin wanted to keep him subdued until the EMT came. Did he intend for Floyd to die, I don’t think so, is he an idiot, yes. Does that mean Manslaughter or Second Degree? I also think Nelson will appeal on many grounds since the request for a mistrial was denied.

I wonder if Chauvin will ever address the family and show remorse.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the whole video from one of the cop’s body cams. I couldn’t convict after seeing this

https://youtu.be/tT-dTgEfPA8

Racists never convict.

Should have mentioned I’m a POC?

Sure you are.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It the 1L crim law discussion- if you shoot someone jumping from the Empire State Building on the way down, it’s still murder

Wait, is this for real? How could that be murder?! Isn't "but for causation" relevant here-- the person would have died anyway, not "but for the shooting." No???

(Sorry, I've complained above about this thread being derailed but I just couldn't NOT ask about this!)

A man has terminal cancer and will die within a week. Are you allowed to shoot him with impunity? Feels the same to me.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With the video tape, if they don’t convict here, cops have a license to kill black men. It’s absurd that people can watch the tape and think it’s anything but murder

I don't understand these new posters.

What else killed Floyd besides Chauvin? Without Chauvin, he would not have died. And Chauvin wasn't kneeling on him inadvertently or accidentally. He was there on purpose.

Floyd was prone. He was handcuffed. There was no way he could have gotten up. Chauvin was purposefully inflicting pain and proving his point: He could do whatever he wanted, because he had the power, and he wasn't going to answer to any bystanders.

Anonymous wrote:

If I fought the cops, I’d expect to be manhandled and face to the ground. There were even two blacks across the street watching, talking amongst themselves about him being stupid by not getting in the car and fighting. Does that mean he should be dead, no. But he may be alive today and he just complied.

Just curious, would you fight the cops?


This is the height of victim blaming. Nothing excuses what Chauvin did for over 9 minutes. Nothing.

use of force has to be objectively reasonably throughout the restraint. Was it reasonable when he was clearly succumbing? Or when he continued to be held in prone restraint after he likely was no longer breathing and had no pulse?

Because of work, all I've been able to watch are snippets and haven't seen the last few days (is there a link which has a compilation of witness testimony?). I noticed the debate upthread about signs like petechiae missing, don't know how that testimony went, but its absence does not have to mean death was not due to positional asphyxia. Just like being able to utter words does not mean breathing is not impaired.

No - this is a key point - the question of reasonableness is no longer relevant to the charges after he was dead, which was far earlier than the end of nine minutes. The charges are for CAUSE of death. What happened after he stopped breathing is not relevant, even though disgusting.

If I fought the cops, I’d expect to be manhandled and face to the ground. There were even two blacks across the street watching, talking amongst themselves about him being stupid by not getting in the car and fighting. Does that mean he should be dead, no. But he may be alive today and he just complied.

Just curious, would you fight the cops?


This is the height of victim blaming. Nothing excuses what Chauvin did for over 9 minutes. Nothing.

use of force has to be objectively reasonably throughout the restraint. Was it reasonable when he was clearly succumbing? Or when he continued to be held in prone restraint after he likely was no longer breathing and had no pulse?

Because of work, all I've been able to watch are snippets and haven't seen the last few days (is there a link which has a compilation of witness testimony?). I noticed the debate upthread about signs like petechiae missing, don't know how that testimony went, but its absence does not have to mean death was not due to positional asphyxia. Just like being able to utter words does not mean breathing is not impaired.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Coming in late: death certificate says “homocide”, wth is the debate about???

Homicide, as they said earlier in the trial, isn't a legal designation or something that results in an automatic conviction. There are only a few options; "natural", "suicide", "homicide", "other" (am I missing one?). So the ME said homicide, but the defense is arguing that that's a medical opinion.

Homicide from a medical viewpoint doesn't imply intent or malice.

I thought the defense attorney did a great job explaining that and with his closing argument. I was a full guilty and now I could not convict. I am concentrating on the entire incident, not just the 9 minutes.

Same. His earnestness is a plus.

Agreed. Can be more effective than a polished performance

Same. I am an attorney and was very much in the guilty camp for at least the second and third offenses (I was always doubtful on the top charge). After hearing the defense’s closing arguments, i could not convict on any of the charges. I am flabbergasted at my change in view.

I am as well. I was a total guilty until today. I took out the emotion and studied the video from the officer’s camera, and didn’t just focus on the 9 minutes. It was eye opening, and I would not convict. I predict a hung jury and no retrial.

Totally disagree. There was no reason to keep Floyd in that position for nearly 10 minutes. None. And no matter what else was going on in Floyd’s body, his position and Chauvin’s knee killed him. Guilty.

But those factors may have been the reason the position and knee killed him, so they're relevant, and Chauvin wouldn't have known about those predisposing conditions that made Floyd vulnerable. The defense was convincing that those predisposing factors bring doubt to Chauvin being the sole cause.

The behavioral standards for restraint need to change. It's known that some people die when restrained, especially if on drugs. How is this type of restraint allowed when someone is handcuffed? What BLM should be pressing for is very specific revision of policing protocols.

As the jury should be aware, legally the question is NOT whether Chauvin was the "sole cause" of Floyd's death, but rather whether his actions were a "substantial causal factor." Someone else already pointed out that the necessary intent also isn't what a lot of you seem to think. Guess we all have to sit back and hope that the jury paid attention to what the judge told them the law is (rather than how the defense tried to obfuscate it).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the whole video from one of the cop’s body cams. I couldn’t convict after seeing this

https://youtu.be/tT-dTgEfPA8

Racists never convict.

Should have mentioned I’m a POC?

What color? Is it a color that has been targeted by the police in this country since the 1600’s?

I’m sorry? Are you really asking what shade of dark I am?! You’re gross.

LOL, you are so white.

No, I’m not. If you were black or brown, you would know how disgusting and embedded in racial discrimination history the concept of “how dark are you” is. A) It does not matter how dark one is, POC of all shades are subject to racial injustices and the victims of racism. B) If you even consider or need to ask “what color are you” when someone says they are a POC, you are racist.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the whole video from one of the cop’s body cams. I couldn’t convict after seeing this

https://youtu.be/tT-dTgEfPA8

Racists never convict.

Should have mentioned I’m a POC?

What color? Is it a color that has been targeted by the police in this country since the 1600’s?

I’m sorry? Are you really asking what shade of dark I am?! You’re gross.

LOL, you are so white.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the whole video from one of the cop’s body cams. I couldn’t convict after seeing this

https://youtu.be/tT-dTgEfPA8

Racists never convict.

Should have mentioned I’m a POC?

What color? Is it a color that has been targeted by the police in this country since the 1600’s?

I’m sorry? Are you really asking what shade of dark I am?! You’re gross.

DP...That is a valid question. All POC are not in the same slave ship. So don't try to act like they are. No one asked you what "shade of dark" you are. You know exactly what the poster was asking, so don't try to act all innocent and inflame folks. You inserted the POC comment to begin with. The "gross" started with you.

Anonymous wrote:If Floyd had just cooperated" is the most sickening theme running through this entire discussion.

I'm preparing for a "not guilty" verdict. Guess it will be payback for OJ.

Payback?
That is disgusting. These are human lives.

If Floyd had just cooperated" is the most sickening theme running through this entire discussion.

I'm preparing for a "not guilty" verdict. Guess it will be payback for OJ.