Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You know what else makes things hard for women in the workforce? Repeated pregnancies and maternal leave. Regardless of whether the woman returns, that can perpetuate negative stereotypes about career women and force extra work on the coworkers left behind. Would you also suggest that because those are problematic for the workforce and how women are judged, we should avoid having second/third/fourth babies?

Look, whether male or female, we have to make reproductive and lifestyle decisions based on what works for our individual marriages and lives. If my third pregnancy negatively impacts my coworker, oh well. If my leaving to stay at home for a few years negatively impacts how women in my career are viewed, well oh well, yet again.

Good lord, you are making our point. It takes two people to have a baby. Two people should be taking parental leave of identical duration, but that doesn't happen until women are holding the purse and are pervasive in the boardroom, in the C-suite, and in federal/state/local government. Some people would say it is a chicken-or-egg situation where the workforce needs to change before women are able to comfortably stay in droves, but as a PP said, history has shown us that it's not actually that complicated. It will take generations of us being uncomfortable and not making the "easy" choice. And those of us who have more than enough money to stay at home -- which is what this threat is about -- are also those uniquely positioned (either because of wealth, education, or position) to make significant headway.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I used to work a high paid investment banking job in NYC. My teen knows how much I struggled and missed him when he was a baby, how I tried to get home before he went to sleep and usually missed his bedtime. He knows that his dad has a demanding job and how I was always the one to drive him to school and activities. He knows I stayed home with his little brother and sister.

OMG how do you not get it? The few of us to whom this thread was actually directed are saying that one of the reasons we work is so that your kids -- all three of them -- don't have to struggle like you did. So that one spouse being in "a demanding job" doesn't mean missing bedtimes or that that same spouse can't drive their kid to school most days and be there for activities. The cycle perpetuated by women electing to be the spouse to SAH over 95% of the time is creating preconceived expectations for your daughter AND your sons all of them will have to conform to or battle against. Those who think they are fortunate to have "choice" and "autonomy" to make that decision are blind to the systemic reasons leading to that choice and of the effect of their choice on the whole.

And as an aside, to PP who said men are much more sympathetic and understanding as to why women choose to stay home, you need to think long and hard about the incentives at play.

You know what else makes things hard for women in the workforce? Repeated pregnancies and maternal leave. Regardless of whether the woman returns, that can perpetuate negative stereotypes about career women and force extra work on the coworkers left behind. Would you also suggest that because those are problematic for the workforce and how women are judged, we should avoid having second/third/fourth babies?

Look, whether male or female, we have to make reproductive and lifestyle decisions based on what works for our individual marriages and lives. If my third pregnancy negatively impacts my coworker, oh well. If my leaving to stay at home for a few years negatively impacts how women in my career are viewed, well oh well, yet again.

You know who can actually improve workplace conditions so moms can re-enter the workforce after taking care of their babies? Other women who stayed in the workforce. Workplace policies for working moms don't improve if all moms decide to permanently leave the workforce.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll go. DH and I both come from generational wealth and have worked for approx. 20 years (we are 43 and 45). I will continue to work for a million reasons but the highlights are:
- Genuinely love my job (big 4 consulting; I like the subject matter, my clients, and the substantive work).
- Continuing to build nest egg for my kids and not being the generation that drops the ball. Although I recognize that family money got us to where we are today (paid for education), I'd be embarrassed to be living on what we inherited rather than what we earn.
- The biggest one: my daughters and, to a lesser extent, my young female colleagues. I am beyond disappointed by my friends who are smarter, better educated, and (formerly) higher earning than their husbands but who have chosen to SAH. I fight the gender battle every. single. day. at work and I don't think these women appreciate the larger repercussions of their decisions. They make hiring, retention, and promotion SO much harder for their daughters when they embody the stereotypes/expectations that I am always fighting against. At this point most of my friends are no longer working or have "mom" jobs (self-employed consultants, tutors, etc.), and maybe I am crazy but I hate that my young daughters are growing up in a world where they see that, where they unconsciously internalize it and what it may mean about them, and where in the workforce they will have to battle expectations not that different from what my mom fought in the 80s. That is insane to me, and it is really difficult for me to understand how my friends don't see that and what sort of example/precedent they are setting.
- I hate cooking, gardening, and cleaning, and having a job gives me an excuse to outsource them.
- Prestige. This is probably a DC/NY/SF-specific thing, but it makes me very proud to tell people my job. I especially love watching men who completely underestimate me, and saying something snappy to the (typically older) women who rudely check in all the time to see if I am still working. They are ALL expecting that at some point I'm going to cave and join my friends, which I guess gets back to the point above about feeling like those of us working are trying to carry the mantle for our daughters.

I get that in a Barbie world, it would be liberating for women to have the choice whether to remain in or leave the workforce. But men aren't doing it; so until they are, all the women doing it -- even those who feel like they have "earned it" or like it is temporary or for their kids -- disappoint me. And don't get me started on the women who are staying at home to raise the next female CEO/president -- unless they are idiots, they are lying to themselves if they don't see that this is a self-perpetuating cycle.

Lol. You’re working so…your daughters and her friends might not internalize that they too can make choice to stay at home? How about recognizing the autonomy of your fellow women to make the best choices for her and for her family? I hate when feminism gets twisted into the morality of mandatory paid employment. Gross.

Perhaps PP is extreme, but we have teenagers and you would be shocked when teenagers say their SAHM is "unemployed" or "doesn't have a job". I don't know if they realize their mom was some high-powered whatever, but it comes across as pretty demeaning.

Why would I have a problem with my teen saying I don’t have a job? How is that demeaning? It’s the truth. Other teens don’t need to hear about my prior career.

It's embarrassing once your kids are past elementary school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I used to work a high paid investment banking job in NYC. My teen knows how much I struggled and missed him when he was a baby, how I tried to get home before he went to sleep and usually missed his bedtime. He knows that his dad has a demanding job and how I was always the one to drive him to school and activities. He knows I stayed home with his little brother and sister.

OMG how do you not get it? The few of us to whom this thread was actually directed are saying that one of the reasons we work is so that your kids -- all three of them -- don't have to struggle like you did. So that one spouse being in "a demanding job" doesn't mean missing bedtimes or that that same spouse can't drive their kid to school most days and be there for activities. The cycle perpetuated by women electing to be the spouse to SAH over 95% of the time is creating preconceived expectations for your daughter AND your sons all of them will have to conform to or battle against. Those who think they are fortunate to have "choice" and "autonomy" to make that decision are blind to the systemic reasons leading to that choice and of the effect of their choice on the whole.

And as an aside, to PP who said men are much more sympathetic and understanding as to why women choose to stay home, you need to think long and hard about the incentives at play.

You know what else makes things hard for women in the workforce? Repeated pregnancies and maternal leave. Regardless of whether the woman returns, that can perpetuate negative stereotypes about career women and force extra work on the coworkers left behind. Would you also suggest that because those are problematic for the workforce and how women are judged, we should avoid having second/third/fourth babies?

Look, whether male or female, we have to make reproductive and lifestyle decisions based on what works for our individual marriages and lives. If my third pregnancy negatively impacts my coworker, oh well. If my leaving to stay at home for a few years negatively impacts how women in my career are viewed, well oh well, yet again.

You know who can actually improve workplace conditions so moms can re-enter the workforce after taking care of their babies? Other women who stayed in the workforce. Workplace policies for working moms don't improve if all moms decide to permanently leave the workforce.

Actually, the people who can most directly improve workplace policies are those in the workplace, but these women are not. For example, I am currently a SAHM looking to get back to work. I have been at home for 5 years. Prior to that, I was an attorney for 15.

I just interviewed for an in-house position that turned out to be fully on-site with an expectation that it is “more than a 9-5 job.” Most of the people in the legal department are women (general counsel, my would be direct boss, other colleagues). I turned down that job because I would not see my kids during the week if I didn’t. So from my perspective it seems the women in the workplace are perpetuating the work around the clock lifestyle.

You are going to make the broad assumption that *women* are perpetuating "around the clock" lifestyles based upon your limited observation of ONE office? Or are you just looking really hard for an excuse not to return to work?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll go. DH and I both come from generational wealth and have worked for approx. 20 years (we are 43 and 45). I will continue to work for a million reasons but the highlights are:
- Genuinely love my job (big 4 consulting; I like the subject matter, my clients, and the substantive work).
- Continuing to build nest egg for my kids and not being the generation that drops the ball. Although I recognize that family money got us to where we are today (paid for education), I'd be embarrassed to be living on what we inherited rather than what we earn.
- The biggest one: my daughters and, to a lesser extent, my young female colleagues. I am beyond disappointed by my friends who are smarter, better educated, and (formerly) higher earning than their husbands but who have chosen to SAH. I fight the gender battle every. single. day. at work and I don't think these women appreciate the larger repercussions of their decisions. They make hiring, retention, and promotion SO much harder for their daughters when they embody the stereotypes/expectations that I am always fighting against. At this point most of my friends are no longer working or have "mom" jobs (self-employed consultants, tutors, etc.), and maybe I am crazy but I hate that my young daughters are growing up in a world where they see that, where they unconsciously internalize it and what it may mean about them, and where in the workforce they will have to battle expectations not that different from what my mom fought in the 80s. That is insane to me, and it is really difficult for me to understand how my friends don't see that and what sort of example/precedent they are setting.
- I hate cooking, gardening, and cleaning, and having a job gives me an excuse to outsource them.
- Prestige. This is probably a DC/NY/SF-specific thing, but it makes me very proud to tell people my job. I especially love watching men who completely underestimate me, and saying something snappy to the (typically older) women who rudely check in all the time to see if I am still working. They are ALL expecting that at some point I'm going to cave and join my friends, which I guess gets back to the point above about feeling like those of us working are trying to carry the mantle for our daughters.

I get that in a Barbie world, it would be liberating for women to have the choice whether to remain in or leave the workforce. But men aren't doing it; so until they are, all the women doing it -- even those who feel like they have "earned it" or like it is temporary or for their kids -- disappoint me. And don't get me started on the women who are staying at home to raise the next female CEO/president -- unless they are idiots, they are lying to themselves if they don't see that this is a self-perpetuating cycle.

Wait. You have interventional wealth and your husband does too, and you genuinely love big four consulting? That’s completely bizarre. The reaction you get to you having a high powered job isn’t for the reason you think it is. You sound insufferable and not much fun at all. Others are likely shocked that you still can’t figure out there are way more enjoyable uses of your time than big 4 consulting!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I used to work a high paid investment banking job in NYC. My teen knows how much I struggled and missed him when he was a baby, how I tried to get home before he went to sleep and usually missed his bedtime. He knows that his dad has a demanding job and how I was always the one to drive him to school and activities. He knows I stayed home with his little brother and sister.

OMG how do you not get it? The few of us to whom this thread was actually directed are saying that one of the reasons we work is so that your kids -- all three of them -- don't have to struggle like you did. So that one spouse being in "a demanding job" doesn't mean missing bedtimes or that that same spouse can't drive their kid to school most days and be there for activities. The cycle perpetuated by women electing to be the spouse to SAH over 95% of the time is creating preconceived expectations for your daughter AND your sons all of them will have to conform to or battle against. Those who think they are fortunate to have "choice" and "autonomy" to make that decision are blind to the systemic reasons leading to that choice and of the effect of their choice on the whole.

And as an aside, to PP who said men are much more sympathetic and understanding as to why women choose to stay home, you need to think long and hard about the incentives at play.

You know what else makes things hard for women in the workforce? Repeated pregnancies and maternal leave. Regardless of whether the woman returns, that can perpetuate negative stereotypes about career women and force extra work on the coworkers left behind. Would you also suggest that because those are problematic for the workforce and how women are judged, we should avoid having second/third/fourth babies?

Look, whether male or female, we have to make reproductive and lifestyle decisions based on what works for our individual marriages and lives. If my third pregnancy negatively impacts my coworker, oh well. If my leaving to stay at home for a few years negatively impacts how women in my career are viewed, well oh well, yet again.

You know who can actually improve workplace conditions so moms can re-enter the workforce after taking care of their babies? Other women who stayed in the workforce. Workplace policies for working moms don't improve if all moms decide to permanently leave the workforce.

Actually, the people who can most directly improve workplace policies are those in the workplace, but these women are not. For example, I am currently a SAHM looking to get back to work. I have been at home for 5 years. Prior to that, I was an attorney for 15.

I just interviewed for an in-house position that turned out to be fully on-site with an expectation that it is “more than a 9-5 job.” Most of the people in the legal department are women (general counsel, my would be direct boss, other colleagues). I turned down that job because I would not see my kids during the week if I didn’t. So from my perspective it seems the women in the workplace are perpetuating the work around the clock lifestyle.

You are going to make the broad assumption that *women* are perpetuating "around the clock" lifestyles based upon your limited observation of ONE office? Or are you just looking really hard for an excuse not to return to work?

Yes, this just isn't true. I work in-house at an organization that very has an around the clock mentality because of the mission. We also have a preference for in-person work. Despite that fact, I am able to flex my hours to see my kids before and after school plenty. I get them to school 3 day a week and pick them up from the bus the other 2. I am always home by 5:30-6. Technology allows me to handle urgent matters from elsewhere. Some of this is that I have chosen to ask for forgiveness instead of beg for permission but workplaces that work for parents who want to be involved certainly exist. I still don't think being a working mom is easy or fun a lot of the time, but it is not impossible.

In fairness...you have been at the organization for a while I presume. You probably won't let the new person have this flexibility until they have "put in their time".

I don’t know about this PP but in my work we model being off for dinner and kids time. It’s expected. I have also covered for people- yes done their work for them or taken a meeting in place of them- because they have a sick kid or something. I had not really thought of it that way but yeah I guess part of why I work is so that someday my kids (son AND daughter) can have a boss like me or the people I’ve trained.

That’s great. But that it is not my experience. Maybe it’s my field (law) and I should have chosen more carefully, but the law firms I worked at, my prior company where I was in-house for 8 years (with a female GC) and now in my recent experience looking to get back to work, I have not found flexibility. I’m still looking, though, maybe I will find it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I used to work a high paid investment banking job in NYC. My teen knows how much I struggled and missed him when he was a baby, how I tried to get home before he went to sleep and usually missed his bedtime. He knows that his dad has a demanding job and how I was always the one to drive him to school and activities. He knows I stayed home with his little brother and sister.

OMG how do you not get it? The few of us to whom this thread was actually directed are saying that one of the reasons we work is so that your kids -- all three of them -- don't have to struggle like you did. So that one spouse being in "a demanding job" doesn't mean missing bedtimes or that that same spouse can't drive their kid to school most days and be there for activities. The cycle perpetuated by women electing to be the spouse to SAH over 95% of the time is creating preconceived expectations for your daughter AND your sons all of them will have to conform to or battle against. Those who think they are fortunate to have "choice" and "autonomy" to make that decision are blind to the systemic reasons leading to that choice and of the effect of their choice on the whole.

And as an aside, to PP who said men are much more sympathetic and understanding as to why women choose to stay home, you need to think long and hard about the incentives at play.

You know what else makes things hard for women in the workforce? Repeated pregnancies and maternal leave. Regardless of whether the woman returns, that can perpetuate negative stereotypes about career women and force extra work on the coworkers left behind. Would you also suggest that because those are problematic for the workforce and how women are judged, we should avoid having second/third/fourth babies?

Look, whether male or female, we have to make reproductive and lifestyle decisions based on what works for our individual marriages and lives. If my third pregnancy negatively impacts my coworker, oh well. If my leaving to stay at home for a few years negatively impacts how women in my career are viewed, well oh well, yet again.

You know who can actually improve workplace conditions so moms can re-enter the workforce after taking care of their babies? Other women who stayed in the workforce. Workplace policies for working moms don't improve if all moms decide to permanently leave the workforce.

Actually, the people who can most directly improve workplace policies are those in the workplace, but these women are not. For example, I am currently a SAHM looking to get back to work. I have been at home for 5 years. Prior to that, I was an attorney for 15.

I just interviewed for an in-house position that turned out to be fully on-site with an expectation that it is “more than a 9-5 job.” Most of the people in the legal department are women (general counsel, my would be direct boss, other colleagues). I turned down that job because I would not see my kids during the week if I didn’t. So from my perspective it seems the women in the workplace are perpetuating the work around the clock lifestyle.

You are going to make the broad assumption that *women* are perpetuating "around the clock" lifestyles based upon your limited observation of ONE office? Or are you just looking really hard for an excuse not to return to work?

Yes, this just isn't true. I work in-house at an organization that very has an around the clock mentality because of the mission. We also have a preference for in-person work. Despite that fact, I am able to flex my hours to see my kids before and after school plenty. I get them to school 3 day a week and pick them up from the bus the other 2. I am always home by 5:30-6. Technology allows me to handle urgent matters from elsewhere. Some of this is that I have chosen to ask for forgiveness instead of beg for permission but workplaces that work for parents who want to be involved certainly exist. I still don't think being a working mom is easy or fun a lot of the time, but it is not impossible.

In fairness...you have been at the organization for a while I presume. You probably won't let the new person have this flexibility until they have "put in their time".

I don’t know about this PP but in my work we model being off for dinner and kids time. It’s expected. I have also covered for people- yes done their work for them or taken a meeting in place of them- because they have a sick kid or something. I had not really thought of it that way but yeah I guess part of why I work is so that someday my kids (son AND daughter) can have a boss like me or the people I’ve trained.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My sole earner husband mostly works from home and is around and available as much as any working parent. The absentee-dad story is a myth that working moms tell. He will be retiring at 55.

How can he be available if he is working? The work from home people are not working in fact.

I said he is as available as any working parent. He’s done before dinner every night and doesn’t work weekends. He can flex during the day if needs to go to a performance or meeting for the kids, etc. He has all the flexibility the working moms brag about. He coaches and does bedtimes. He’s not remotely absentee. I know that’s disappointing for some posters who want him to be checked out.

Right, as noted, that makes him a practically impossible rarity. There are very few wealthy (and non-wealthy) working fathers supporting entire families who can work from home, have total schedule control, and skip out on work whenever they want.

In any event, this thread started because OP is married to a terrible, disinterested, but wealthy father, which is far more common in the SAHM/wealthy WOHD model. So your unicorn situation is totally irrelevant.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I used to work a high paid investment banking job in NYC. My teen knows how much I struggled and missed him when he was a baby, how I tried to get home before he went to sleep and usually missed his bedtime. He knows that his dad has a demanding job and how I was always the one to drive him to school and activities. He knows I stayed home with his little brother and sister.

OMG how do you not get it? The few of us to whom this thread was actually directed are saying that one of the reasons we work is so that your kids -- all three of them -- don't have to struggle like you did. So that one spouse being in "a demanding job" doesn't mean missing bedtimes or that that same spouse can't drive their kid to school most days and be there for activities. The cycle perpetuated by women electing to be the spouse to SAH over 95% of the time is creating preconceived expectations for your daughter AND your sons all of them will have to conform to or battle against. Those who think they are fortunate to have "choice" and "autonomy" to make that decision are blind to the systemic reasons leading to that choice and of the effect of their choice on the whole.

And as an aside, to PP who said men are much more sympathetic and understanding as to why women choose to stay home, you need to think long and hard about the incentives at play.

You know what else makes things hard for women in the workforce? Repeated pregnancies and maternal leave. Regardless of whether the woman returns, that can perpetuate negative stereotypes about career women and force extra work on the coworkers left behind. Would you also suggest that because those are problematic for the workforce and how women are judged, we should avoid having second/third/fourth babies?

Look, whether male or female, we have to make reproductive and lifestyle decisions based on what works for our individual marriages and lives. If my third pregnancy negatively impacts my coworker, oh well. If my leaving to stay at home for a few years negatively impacts how women in my career are viewed, well oh well, yet again.

You know who can actually improve workplace conditions so moms can re-enter the workforce after taking care of their babies? Other women who stayed in the workforce. Workplace policies for working moms don't improve if all moms decide to permanently leave the workforce.

Actually, the people who can most directly improve workplace policies are those in the workplace, but these women are not. For example, I am currently a SAHM looking to get back to work. I have been at home for 5 years. Prior to that, I was an attorney for 15.

I just interviewed for an in-house position that turned out to be fully on-site with an expectation that it is “more than a 9-5 job.” Most of the people in the legal department are women (general counsel, my would be direct boss, other colleagues). I turned down that job because I would not see my kids during the week if I didn’t. So from my perspective it seems the women in the workplace are perpetuating the work around the clock lifestyle.

You are going to make the broad assumption that *women* are perpetuating "around the clock" lifestyles based upon your limited observation of ONE office? Or are you just looking really hard for an excuse not to return to work?

Yes, this just isn't true. I work in-house at an organization that very has an around the clock mentality because of the mission. We also have a preference for in-person work. Despite that fact, I am able to flex my hours to see my kids before and after school plenty. I get them to school 3 day a week and pick them up from the bus the other 2. I am always home by 5:30-6. Technology allows me to handle urgent matters from elsewhere. Some of this is that I have chosen to ask for forgiveness instead of beg for permission but workplaces that work for parents who want to be involved certainly exist. I still don't think being a working mom is easy or fun a lot of the time, but it is not impossible.

In fairness...you have been at the organization for a while I presume. You probably won't let the new person have this flexibility until they have "put in their time".

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My sole earner husband mostly works from home and is around and available as much as any working parent. The absentee-dad story is a myth that working moms tell. He will be retiring at 55.

How can he be available if he is working? The work from home people are not working in fact.

I said he is as available as any working parent. He’s done before dinner every night and doesn’t work weekends. He can flex during the day if needs to go to a performance or meeting for the kids, etc. He has all the flexibility the working moms brag about. He coaches and does bedtimes. He’s not remotely absentee. I know that’s disappointing for some posters who want him to be checked out.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is my area/circle of acquaintances/neighborhood the only one where being a sahm is very rare? I can think of 2 true sahms. Posting here it feels like it might be flipped in other areas?

Probably, not...only 25% of all households have a SAHP...and it is actually more prevalent in lower income households where you would lose money with both spouses working. In other words, the cost of child care is more than the after-tax earnings of one of the spouse.

Of course, maybe it is also flipped in super HNW areas too.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I used to work a high paid investment banking job in NYC. My teen knows how much I struggled and missed him when he was a baby, how I tried to get home before he went to sleep and usually missed his bedtime. He knows that his dad has a demanding job and how I was always the one to drive him to school and activities. He knows I stayed home with his little brother and sister.

OMG how do you not get it? The few of us to whom this thread was actually directed are saying that one of the reasons we work is so that your kids -- all three of them -- don't have to struggle like you did. So that one spouse being in "a demanding job" doesn't mean missing bedtimes or that that same spouse can't drive their kid to school most days and be there for activities. The cycle perpetuated by women electing to be the spouse to SAH over 95% of the time is creating preconceived expectations for your daughter AND your sons all of them will have to conform to or battle against. Those who think they are fortunate to have "choice" and "autonomy" to make that decision are blind to the systemic reasons leading to that choice and of the effect of their choice on the whole.

And as an aside, to PP who said men are much more sympathetic and understanding as to why women choose to stay home, you need to think long and hard about the incentives at play.

You know what else makes things hard for women in the workforce? Repeated pregnancies and maternal leave. Regardless of whether the woman returns, that can perpetuate negative stereotypes about career women and force extra work on the coworkers left behind. Would you also suggest that because those are problematic for the workforce and how women are judged, we should avoid having second/third/fourth babies?

Look, whether male or female, we have to make reproductive and lifestyle decisions based on what works for our individual marriages and lives. If my third pregnancy negatively impacts my coworker, oh well. If my leaving to stay at home for a few years negatively impacts how women in my career are viewed, well oh well, yet again.

You know who can actually improve workplace conditions so moms can re-enter the workforce after taking care of their babies? Other women who stayed in the workforce. Workplace policies for working moms don't improve if all moms decide to permanently leave the workforce.

Actually, the people who can most directly improve workplace policies are those in the workplace, but these women are not. For example, I am currently a SAHM looking to get back to work. I have been at home for 5 years. Prior to that, I was an attorney for 15.

I just interviewed for an in-house position that turned out to be fully on-site with an expectation that it is “more than a 9-5 job.” Most of the people in the legal department are women (general counsel, my would be direct boss, other colleagues). I turned down that job because I would not see my kids during the week if I didn’t. So from my perspective it seems the women in the workplace are perpetuating the work around the clock lifestyle.

You are going to make the broad assumption that *women* are perpetuating "around the clock" lifestyles based upon your limited observation of ONE office? Or are you just looking really hard for an excuse not to return to work?

Yes, this just isn't true. I work in-house at an organization that very has an around the clock mentality because of the mission. We also have a preference for in-person work. Despite that fact, I am able to flex my hours to see my kids before and after school plenty. I get them to school 3 day a week and pick them up from the bus the other 2. I am always home by 5:30-6. Technology allows me to handle urgent matters from elsewhere. Some of this is that I have chosen to ask for forgiveness instead of beg for permission but workplaces that work for parents who want to be involved certainly exist. I still don't think being a working mom is easy or fun a lot of the time, but it is not impossible.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll go. DH and I both come from generational wealth and have worked for approx. 20 years (we are 43 and 45). I will continue to work for a million reasons but the highlights are:
- Genuinely love my job (big 4 consulting; I like the subject matter, my clients, and the substantive work).
- Continuing to build nest egg for my kids and not being the generation that drops the ball. Although I recognize that family money got us to where we are today (paid for education), I'd be embarrassed to be living on what we inherited rather than what we earn.
- The biggest one: my daughters and, to a lesser extent, my young female colleagues. I am beyond disappointed by my friends who are smarter, better educated, and (formerly) higher earning than their husbands but who have chosen to SAH. I fight the gender battle every. single. day. at work and I don't think these women appreciate the larger repercussions of their decisions. They make hiring, retention, and promotion SO much harder for their daughters when they embody the stereotypes/expectations that I am always fighting against. At this point most of my friends are no longer working or have "mom" jobs (self-employed consultants, tutors, etc.), and maybe I am crazy but I hate that my young daughters are growing up in a world where they see that, where they unconsciously internalize it and what it may mean about them, and where in the workforce they will have to battle expectations not that different from what my mom fought in the 80s. That is insane to me, and it is really difficult for me to understand how my friends don't see that and what sort of example/precedent they are setting.
- I hate cooking, gardening, and cleaning, and having a job gives me an excuse to outsource them.
- Prestige. This is probably a DC/NY/SF-specific thing, but it makes me very proud to tell people my job. I especially love watching men who completely underestimate me, and saying something snappy to the (typically older) women who rudely check in all the time to see if I am still working. They are ALL expecting that at some point I'm going to cave and join my friends, which I guess gets back to the point above about feeling like those of us working are trying to carry the mantle for our daughters.

I get that in a Barbie world, it would be liberating for women to have the choice whether to remain in or leave the workforce. But men aren't doing it; so until they are, all the women doing it -- even those who feel like they have "earned it" or like it is temporary or for their kids -- disappoint me. And don't get me started on the women who are staying at home to raise the next female CEO/president -- unless they are idiots, they are lying to themselves if they don't see that this is a self-perpetuating cycle.

Wait. You have interventional wealth and your husband does too, and you genuinely love big four consulting? That’s completely bizarre. The reaction you get to you having a high powered job isn’t for the reason you think it is. You sound insufferable and not much fun at all. Others are likely shocked that you still can’t figure out there are way more enjoyable uses of your time than big 4 consulting!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I used to work a high paid investment banking job in NYC. My teen knows how much I struggled and missed him when he was a baby, how I tried to get home before he went to sleep and usually missed his bedtime. He knows that his dad has a demanding job and how I was always the one to drive him to school and activities. He knows I stayed home with his little brother and sister.

OMG how do you not get it? The few of us to whom this thread was actually directed are saying that one of the reasons we work is so that your kids -- all three of them -- don't have to struggle like you did. So that one spouse being in "a demanding job" doesn't mean missing bedtimes or that that same spouse can't drive their kid to school most days and be there for activities. The cycle perpetuated by women electing to be the spouse to SAH over 95% of the time is creating preconceived expectations for your daughter AND your sons all of them will have to conform to or battle against. Those who think they are fortunate to have "choice" and "autonomy" to make that decision are blind to the systemic reasons leading to that choice and of the effect of their choice on the whole.

And as an aside, to PP who said men are much more sympathetic and understanding as to why women choose to stay home, you need to think long and hard about the incentives at play.

You know what else makes things hard for women in the workforce? Repeated pregnancies and maternal leave. Regardless of whether the woman returns, that can perpetuate negative stereotypes about career women and force extra work on the coworkers left behind. Would you also suggest that because those are problematic for the workforce and how women are judged, we should avoid having second/third/fourth babies?

Look, whether male or female, we have to make reproductive and lifestyle decisions based on what works for our individual marriages and lives. If my third pregnancy negatively impacts my coworker, oh well. If my leaving to stay at home for a few years negatively impacts how women in my career are viewed, well oh well, yet again.

You know who can actually improve workplace conditions so moms can re-enter the workforce after taking care of their babies? Other women who stayed in the workforce. Workplace policies for working moms don't improve if all moms decide to permanently leave the workforce.

Actually, the people who can most directly improve workplace policies are those in the workplace, but these women are not. For example, I am currently a SAHM looking to get back to work. I have been at home for 5 years. Prior to that, I was an attorney for 15.

I just interviewed for an in-house position that turned out to be fully on-site with an expectation that it is “more than a 9-5 job.” Most of the people in the legal department are women (general counsel, my would be direct boss, other colleagues). I turned down that job because I would not see my kids during the week if I didn’t. So from my perspective it seems the women in the workplace are perpetuating the work around the clock lifestyle.

You are going to make the broad assumption that *women* are perpetuating "around the clock" lifestyles based upon your limited observation of ONE office? Or are you just looking really hard for an excuse not to return to work?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I used to work a high paid investment banking job in NYC. My teen knows how much I struggled and missed him when he was a baby, how I tried to get home before he went to sleep and usually missed his bedtime. He knows that his dad has a demanding job and how I was always the one to drive him to school and activities. He knows I stayed home with his little brother and sister.

OMG how do you not get it? The few of us to whom this thread was actually directed are saying that one of the reasons we work is so that your kids -- all three of them -- don't have to struggle like you did. So that one spouse being in "a demanding job" doesn't mean missing bedtimes or that that same spouse can't drive their kid to school most days and be there for activities. The cycle perpetuated by women electing to be the spouse to SAH over 95% of the time is creating preconceived expectations for your daughter AND your sons all of them will have to conform to or battle against. Those who think they are fortunate to have "choice" and "autonomy" to make that decision are blind to the systemic reasons leading to that choice and of the effect of their choice on the whole.

And as an aside, to PP who said men are much more sympathetic and understanding as to why women choose to stay home, you need to think long and hard about the incentives at play.

You know what else makes things hard for women in the workforce? Repeated pregnancies and maternal leave. Regardless of whether the woman returns, that can perpetuate negative stereotypes about career women and force extra work on the coworkers left behind. Would you also suggest that because those are problematic for the workforce and how women are judged, we should avoid having second/third/fourth babies?

Look, whether male or female, we have to make reproductive and lifestyle decisions based on what works for our individual marriages and lives. If my third pregnancy negatively impacts my coworker, oh well. If my leaving to stay at home for a few years negatively impacts how women in my career are viewed, well oh well, yet again.

You know who can actually improve workplace conditions so moms can re-enter the workforce after taking care of their babies? Other women who stayed in the workforce. Workplace policies for working moms don't improve if all moms decide to permanently leave the workforce.

Actually, the people who can most directly improve workplace policies are those in the workplace, but these women are not. For example, I am currently a SAHM looking to get back to work. I have been at home for 5 years. Prior to that, I was an attorney for 15.

I just interviewed for an in-house position that turned out to be fully on-site with an expectation that it is “more than a 9-5 job.” Most of the people in the legal department are women (general counsel, my would be direct boss, other colleagues). I turned down that job because I would not see my kids during the week if I didn’t. So from my perspective it seems the women in the workplace are perpetuating the work around the clock lifestyle.