In my circle of close friends, I am the only one with kids.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other thread got me thinking. I have a couple friend who are successful, financially stable, and in a good healthy marriage. They don’t want kids. The rest of our group does, and we always assumed they would have kids, but they are happy without them. When asked, they always list reasons why they don’t want kids or simply they just didn’t want them. They can easily afford kids and childcare. It seems very unnatural to me as a woman to not want kids. I went back and forth for a little bit and it felt weird picturing my life without kids. I wonder if she is truly happy. I worry they will get bored and have no one else to love. Anyone else have childless friends like this?

You’ve absorbed everything society has fed you about women and their roles. Expand your mind.

Well said.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly having kids should be exclusively for people who WANT to have them. On the rough days with my kids I always know how much I wanted them and that I choose to have them and I’m at peace with how hard it can be. No one should ever be put into 18 years of parenting without choosing it. If your friend knows herself well enough to think that wouldn’t work for her, I applaud her understanding of herself. I think the choice to not have kids is a harder one in many respects and people who go against the majority have probably thought about it more than people who always just wanted children.

Yeah! On the other hand we're facing a population crisis - not enough kids being born. I think it's worth asking what is going on with our society that is making so many of us not want kids. In my case it was partly just, I didn;t want them - but if I didn't have 20 years worth of student loans to pay off, and life were cheaper and easier, I could have leaned the other way. I'm not saying it's all money money money, but we make it really hard for people to have kids in this country - some support could make it a more appealing prospect for those who are on the fence.

In short - I agree with you, and also I do worry what's going to happen when there is a teeny tiny younger generation and we, like, don't have enough food to eat because there's no one left to grow it. So I think maybe we could try to encourage more people to want to have kids, and that wouldn't be a bad thing.

No, we aren't. There are plenty of people on the planet -- too many, in fact. We could solve this "crisis" with immigration. But I agree that we make it hard for people to have kids in this country -- it's expensive as hell, and we as a society say that because having kids is a choice, it's your obligation to figure out how to pay for childcare and healthcare and retirement and education and housing all by yourself, and no one else should have to help pay for your choice. And so many people are, quite rationally, deciding that it's too hard, and they don't feel like they can manage those things, especially with things like student debt and uncertain employment. Add in things like climate change and other big problems in the world, and it should be no surprise that people are having fewer kids.

Population is peaking and will start shrinking globally soon if it hasn't already. If we don't reduce population gradually we will have a younger generation incapable of supporting the older generation.

People are having fewer children because more and more of the world is modernizing and when countries modernize their population growth stymies. More education and more choice = less children. Immigration fixes the problem temporarily because those people are coming from less modern countries but their kids have the same tendencies once they are part of the more modern society.

Having children and caring for them well is a public service whether people like you want to admit it or not. Eventually my kids will be working in the economy and society that takes care of you when you can no longer contribute meaningfully to society.

I was with you up till the last part. You have kids because you want them. If they happen to produce more than they consume, yay - but you certainly wouldn't have decided not to have kids if it turned out they had an overall negative effect on the world, right? You're not behaving altruistically by having kids - you made a self-interested decision.

I don't think people do or should have kids for that reason, but as a society we need to make it appealing to have kids because of that reason. People have a hard time separating individual choice and the motivations specific people have for choosing their life and how government/society should incentivize certain choices because you need a certain amount of the population to make some choices in order for society to keep going. Like if no one was choosing to become a doctor, we would find a way to incentivize becoming a doctor because we need doctors even though individuals would only be choosing that because they need a salary/want a good career etc.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly having kids should be exclusively for people who WANT to have them. On the rough days with my kids I always know how much I wanted them and that I choose to have them and I’m at peace with how hard it can be. No one should ever be put into 18 years of parenting without choosing it. If your friend knows herself well enough to think that wouldn’t work for her, I applaud her understanding of herself. I think the choice to not have kids is a harder one in many respects and people who go against the majority have probably thought about it more than people who always just wanted children.

Yeah! On the other hand we're facing a population crisis - not enough kids being born. I think it's worth asking what is going on with our society that is making so many of us not want kids. In my case it was partly just, I didn;t want them - but if I didn't have 20 years worth of student loans to pay off, and life were cheaper and easier, I could have leaned the other way. I'm not saying it's all money money money, but we make it really hard for people to have kids in this country - some support could make it a more appealing prospect for those who are on the fence.

In short - I agree with you, and also I do worry what's going to happen when there is a teeny tiny younger generation and we, like, don't have enough food to eat because there's no one left to grow it. So I think maybe we could try to encourage more people to want to have kids, and that wouldn't be a bad thing.

No, we aren't. There are plenty of people on the planet -- too many, in fact. We could solve this "crisis" with immigration. But I agree that we make it hard for people to have kids in this country -- it's expensive as hell, and we as a society say that because having kids is a choice, it's your obligation to figure out how to pay for childcare and healthcare and retirement and education and housing all by yourself, and no one else should have to help pay for your choice. And so many people are, quite rationally, deciding that it's too hard, and they don't feel like they can manage those things, especially with things like student debt and uncertain employment. Add in things like climate change and other big problems in the world, and it should be no surprise that people are having fewer kids.

Population is peaking and will start shrinking globally soon if it hasn't already. If we don't reduce population gradually we will have a younger generation incapable of supporting the older generation.

People are having fewer children because more and more of the world is modernizing and when countries modernize their population growth stymies. More education and more choice = less children. Immigration fixes the problem temporarily because those people are coming from less modern countries but their kids have the same tendencies once they are part of the more modern society.

Having children and caring for them well is a public service whether people like you want to admit it or not. Eventually my kids will be working in the economy and society that takes care of you when you can no longer contribute meaningfully to society.

Uh, I have kids, so you can get right off that high horse. There are plenty of people on the planet, and a shrinking population, while it will require adjustments (which we will need to make anyway, given the already-occurring results of anthropogenic climate change), would be a good thing. And no one should kid themselves that they are having kids for altruistic reasons. You have kids because you want to have kids.

I'm not on a high horse. I could care less if someone chooses to have kids or not. You are up there sitting on your own horse acting like you understand the ebb and flow and consequences of population growth enough to say that any incentives to have children are bad. Look at Japan, you are just ignorant of the consequences of having zero network supporting people who are willing to have and raise children. I had kids because I wanted them, that is true on an individual level. And conversely, people who don't want kids should feel no obligation to have them. But societally, we NEED people to have kids and overall it is a societal good when we are having kids and a societal bad when no one is. You can look at things from both the individual level and the global level.

I agree a shrinking population is a good thing, but if it shrinks too quickly, it will be catastrophic.

My friends who went child free had done a lot of childcare in their lives (siblings or special needs) and did not romanticize what was involved. Honestly if I had their perspective I probably would have thought a bit harder. I don’t regret it but I did not realize how much self sacrifice is involved (like 98% of your self with young kids.)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly having kids should be exclusively for people who WANT to have them. On the rough days with my kids I always know how much I wanted them and that I choose to have them and I’m at peace with how hard it can be. No one should ever be put into 18 years of parenting without choosing it. If your friend knows herself well enough to think that wouldn’t work for her, I applaud her understanding of herself. I think the choice to not have kids is a harder one in many respects and people who go against the majority have probably thought about it more than people who always just wanted children.

Yeah! On the other hand we're facing a population crisis - not enough kids being born. I think it's worth asking what is going on with our society that is making so many of us not want kids. In my case it was partly just, I didn;t want them - but if I didn't have 20 years worth of student loans to pay off, and life were cheaper and easier, I could have leaned the other way. I'm not saying it's all money money money, but we make it really hard for people to have kids in this country - some support could make it a more appealing prospect for those who are on the fence.

In short - I agree with you, and also I do worry what's going to happen when there is a teeny tiny younger generation and we, like, don't have enough food to eat because there's no one left to grow it. So I think maybe we could try to encourage more people to want to have kids, and that wouldn't be a bad thing.

No, we aren't. There are plenty of people on the planet -- too many, in fact. We could solve this "crisis" with immigration. But I agree that we make it hard for people to have kids in this country -- it's expensive as hell, and we as a society say that because having kids is a choice, it's your obligation to figure out how to pay for childcare and healthcare and retirement and education and housing all by yourself, and no one else should have to help pay for your choice. And so many people are, quite rationally, deciding that it's too hard, and they don't feel like they can manage those things, especially with things like student debt and uncertain employment. Add in things like climate change and other big problems in the world, and it should be no surprise that people are having fewer kids.

Population is peaking and will start shrinking globally soon if it hasn't already. If we don't reduce population gradually we will have a younger generation incapable of supporting the older generation.

People are having fewer children because more and more of the world is modernizing and when countries modernize their population growth stymies. More education and more choice = less children. Immigration fixes the problem temporarily because those people are coming from less modern countries but their kids have the same tendencies once they are part of the more modern society.

Having children and caring for them well is a public service whether people like you want to admit it or not. Eventually my kids will be working in the economy and society that takes care of you when you can no longer contribute meaningfully to society.

I was with you up till the last part. You have kids because you want them. If they happen to produce more than they consume, yay - but you certainly wouldn't have decided not to have kids if it turned out they had an overall negative effect on the world, right? You're not behaving altruistically by having kids - you made a self-interested decision.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly having kids should be exclusively for people who WANT to have them. On the rough days with my kids I always know how much I wanted them and that I choose to have them and I’m at peace with how hard it can be. No one should ever be put into 18 years of parenting without choosing it. If your friend knows herself well enough to think that wouldn’t work for her, I applaud her understanding of herself. I think the choice to not have kids is a harder one in many respects and people who go against the majority have probably thought about it more than people who always just wanted children.

Yeah! On the other hand we're facing a population crisis - not enough kids being born. I think it's worth asking what is going on with our society that is making so many of us not want kids. In my case it was partly just, I didn;t want them - but if I didn't have 20 years worth of student loans to pay off, and life were cheaper and easier, I could have leaned the other way. I'm not saying it's all money money money, but we make it really hard for people to have kids in this country - some support could make it a more appealing prospect for those who are on the fence.

In short - I agree with you, and also I do worry what's going to happen when there is a teeny tiny younger generation and we, like, don't have enough food to eat because there's no one left to grow it. So I think maybe we could try to encourage more people to want to have kids, and that wouldn't be a bad thing.

No, we aren't. There are plenty of people on the planet -- too many, in fact. We could solve this "crisis" with immigration. But I agree that we make it hard for people to have kids in this country -- it's expensive as hell, and we as a society say that because having kids is a choice, it's your obligation to figure out how to pay for childcare and healthcare and retirement and education and housing all by yourself, and no one else should have to help pay for your choice. And so many people are, quite rationally, deciding that it's too hard, and they don't feel like they can manage those things, especially with things like student debt and uncertain employment. Add in things like climate change and other big problems in the world, and it should be no surprise that people are having fewer kids.

I am PP - and yes, you're right. The "One Billion People!" solution would do some good. And there's going to be more migration as climate change gets worse.

Hopefully automation and robotics and that sort of thing will also help alleviate or mitigate what could happen if there aren't enough young people here to do all the things.

I think we agree about more than we disagree, in the end.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Good parenting is one of the hardest yet most rewarding jobs on the planet but it’s not for everyone. There are plenty of jobs where you can get a B rating and do nicely but parenting isn’t one of them. Both spouses must be all in to make it really work because the ramifications of a half ass effort are awful. The joys of doing a good job are extraordinary.

You absolutely can.

What is true of parenting is you can get an A rating and still have a screwed-up kid.

+1 You can do everything right and things can still turn out wrong.

Parenting is hard but I have to disagree about the rewarding part. My kids are little but I don't see any of these rewards people allude to...and I don't expect I will. It's work. Some people like it. Some people don't. I am a good parent because I love them and it is my obligation, but to me, it is not rewarding. A huge fear of mine is that they won't turn out right despite doing everything "right." It is the hardest yet most unrewarding job there is.

+1, finding the rewards to balance the challenges is very difficult for me as well. I often feel a bit “robbed” — that people in my family/adult circle and in society at-large do NOT elucidate just how hard having kids is. The knee jerk response of “but it’s rewarding” is just more evolutionary crap to get people procreating. I make sure to tell my kids they don’t have to have children, they can build their life as they see fit and screw what anyone else thinks.

But I have also had an unengaged/unsupportive partner for almost all of the last 10 years of having kids, so take what you will from that. Perhaps rather than “so rewarding!” and “child free is unnatural” all of us would be better served to teach young people how to have talks about the realities of having children and how to ask questions of your potential partner to try to see if they would be someone worthy of parenting with.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly having kids should be exclusively for people who WANT to have them. On the rough days with my kids I always know how much I wanted them and that I choose to have them and I’m at peace with how hard it can be. No one should ever be put into 18 years of parenting without choosing it. If your friend knows herself well enough to think that wouldn’t work for her, I applaud her understanding of herself. I think the choice to not have kids is a harder one in many respects and people who go against the majority have probably thought about it more than people who always just wanted children.

Yeah! On the other hand we're facing a population crisis - not enough kids being born. I think it's worth asking what is going on with our society that is making so many of us not want kids. In my case it was partly just, I didn;t want them - but if I didn't have 20 years worth of student loans to pay off, and life were cheaper and easier, I could have leaned the other way. I'm not saying it's all money money money, but we make it really hard for people to have kids in this country - some support could make it a more appealing prospect for those who are on the fence.

In short - I agree with you, and also I do worry what's going to happen when there is a teeny tiny younger generation and we, like, don't have enough food to eat because there's no one left to grow it. So I think maybe we could try to encourage more people to want to have kids, and that wouldn't be a bad thing.

No, we aren't. There are plenty of people on the planet -- too many, in fact. We could solve this "crisis" with immigration. But I agree that we make it hard for people to have kids in this country -- it's expensive as hell, and we as a society say that because having kids is a choice, it's your obligation to figure out how to pay for childcare and healthcare and retirement and education and housing all by yourself, and no one else should have to help pay for your choice. And so many people are, quite rationally, deciding that it's too hard, and they don't feel like they can manage those things, especially with things like student debt and uncertain employment. Add in things like climate change and other big problems in the world, and it should be no surprise that people are having fewer kids.

Population is peaking and will start shrinking globally soon if it hasn't already. If we don't reduce population gradually we will have a younger generation incapable of supporting the older generation.

People are having fewer children because more and more of the world is modernizing and when countries modernize their population growth stymies. More education and more choice = less children. Immigration fixes the problem temporarily because those people are coming from less modern countries but their kids have the same tendencies once they are part of the more modern society.

Having children and caring for them well is a public service whether people like you want to admit it or not. Eventually my kids will be working in the economy and society that takes care of you when you can no longer contribute meaningfully to society.

Uh, I have kids, so you can get right off that high horse. There are plenty of people on the planet, and a shrinking population, while it will require adjustments (which we will need to make anyway, given the already-occurring results of anthropogenic climate change), would be a good thing. And no one should kid themselves that they are having kids for altruistic reasons. You have kids because you want to have kids.

If you are not all in 100% you shouldn’t do it. Being a parent is the most important thing you will do in your life and if you are not all in the consequences can be dire. A child free marriage can be very rewarding on it’s own and we are now empty nesters and having a blast! But I love being a mom.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly having kids should be exclusively for people who WANT to have them. On the rough days with my kids I always know how much I wanted them and that I choose to have them and I’m at peace with how hard it can be. No one should ever be put into 18 years of parenting without choosing it. If your friend knows herself well enough to think that wouldn’t work for her, I applaud her understanding of herself. I think the choice to not have kids is a harder one in many respects and people who go against the majority have probably thought about it more than people who always just wanted children.

Yeah! On the other hand we're facing a population crisis - not enough kids being born. I think it's worth asking what is going on with our society that is making so many of us not want kids. In my case it was partly just, I didn;t want them - but if I didn't have 20 years worth of student loans to pay off, and life were cheaper and easier, I could have leaned the other way. I'm not saying it's all money money money, but we make it really hard for people to have kids in this country - some support could make it a more appealing prospect for those who are on the fence.

In short - I agree with you, and also I do worry what's going to happen when there is a teeny tiny younger generation and we, like, don't have enough food to eat because there's no one left to grow it. So I think maybe we could try to encourage more people to want to have kids, and that wouldn't be a bad thing.

No, we aren't. There are plenty of people on the planet -- too many, in fact. We could solve this "crisis" with immigration. But I agree that we make it hard for people to have kids in this country -- it's expensive as hell, and we as a society say that because having kids is a choice, it's your obligation to figure out how to pay for childcare and healthcare and retirement and education and housing all by yourself, and no one else should have to help pay for your choice. And so many people are, quite rationally, deciding that it's too hard, and they don't feel like they can manage those things, especially with things like student debt and uncertain employment. Add in things like climate change and other big problems in the world, and it should be no surprise that people are having fewer kids.

Population is peaking and will start shrinking globally soon if it hasn't already. If we don't reduce population gradually we will have a younger generation incapable of supporting the older generation.

People are having fewer children because more and more of the world is modernizing and when countries modernize their population growth stymies. More education and more choice = less children. Immigration fixes the problem temporarily because those people are coming from less modern countries but their kids have the same tendencies once they are part of the more modern society.

Having children and caring for them well is a public service whether people like you want to admit it or not. Eventually my kids will be working in the economy and society that takes care of you when you can no longer contribute meaningfully to society.

Anonymous wrote:I definitely understand not wanting kids. However, "it's hard" is not a good reason for not doing it, IMO (the one many commenters cite). The most meaningful experiences in life come from attempting and achieving hard things. I don't think having a frictionless and uncomplicated life actually makes people happy.

"It's hard" is an excellent reason not to have kids. But no one has kids because they think it will build their character. And no one should have kids unless they want them, and if they don't want them because it's hard, then they shouldn't have them. Plus, "it's hard" encompasses a lot of things -- stress, emotional and physical challenges, finances, etc.

And I'm sure that people without kids nonetheless have plenty of challenges in their lives. Not having kids doesn't make your life easy -- you still have all the other stresses and challenges that people have.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly having kids should be exclusively for people who WANT to have them. On the rough days with my kids I always know how much I wanted them and that I choose to have them and I’m at peace with how hard it can be. No one should ever be put into 18 years of parenting without choosing it. If your friend knows herself well enough to think that wouldn’t work for her, I applaud her understanding of herself. I think the choice to not have kids is a harder one in many respects and people who go against the majority have probably thought about it more than people who always just wanted children.

Yeah! On the other hand we're facing a population crisis - not enough kids being born. I think it's worth asking what is going on with our society that is making so many of us not want kids. In my case it was partly just, I didn;t want them - but if I didn't have 20 years worth of student loans to pay off, and life were cheaper and easier, I could have leaned the other way. I'm not saying it's all money money money, but we make it really hard for people to have kids in this country - some support could make it a more appealing prospect for those who are on the fence.

In short - I agree with you, and also I do worry what's going to happen when there is a teeny tiny younger generation and we, like, don't have enough food to eat because there's no one left to grow it. So I think maybe we could try to encourage more people to want to have kids, and that wouldn't be a bad thing.

No, we aren't. There are plenty of people on the planet -- too many, in fact. We could solve this "crisis" with immigration. But I agree that we make it hard for people to have kids in this country -- it's expensive as hell, and we as a society say that because having kids is a choice, it's your obligation to figure out how to pay for childcare and healthcare and retirement and education and housing all by yourself, and no one else should have to help pay for your choice. And so many people are, quite rationally, deciding that it's too hard, and they don't feel like they can manage those things, especially with things like student debt and uncertain employment. Add in things like climate change and other big problems in the world, and it should be no surprise that people are having fewer kids.

Anonymous wrote:The other thread got me thinking. I have a couple friend who are successful, financially stable, and in a good healthy marriage. They don’t want kids. The rest of our group does, and we always assumed they would have kids, but they are happy without them. When asked, they always list reasons why they don’t want kids or simply they just didn’t want them. They can easily afford kids and childcare. It seems very unnatural to me as a woman to not want kids. I went back and forth for a little bit and it felt weird picturing my life without kids. I wonder if she is truly happy. I worry they will get bored and have no one else to love. Anyone else have childless friends like this?

When asked, they "always" provide good reasons? How often are you dogging them with your incessant pressure and questions that there's an "always" response? Seriously, OP, I guarantee they just want to be left alone with their money and free time at this point. And stop worrying about them. Do you think they worry if you are "truly" happy with your kids, or that you'll get "bored" because your life revolves around your kids rather than your own passions?

Sheesh, I have kids and I love them, but I can certainly understand the charms of choosing childfree. (Heck, I probably understand it even better than childfree people!)

While doing infertility I gently asked around child free couples. They always had a very good reason to choose child free. They just are not telling you.