Anonymous wrote:Why should Asian alums support this change to let themselves be replaced with white people? Serious question.

I thought it was with underrepresented minorities.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Real question: If the "teach to the test" theory 'works' in China - who says it is supposed to work here - where is that written?

TJ is trying to get away from students who only know how to memorize and take tests. Why is that so "wrong" in Asian parents' eyes? Surely you know how to teach your children something else than "teach to the test"?

Sorry, I don't see your "something else" as a better alternative. The extra focus on the SIS (aka B.S) essays that can also be memmed? The randomness added in by a lottery system? Pray tell, what in your mind is more fair than a test?

Look, FCPS has a lot of taxpayers who do not like the cheating. Get over it.

Yes, we have to root out white parents bribing doctors to get phony medical diagnosis fir their kids so that they can cheat. We have to do something.

I didn’t know that kind of stuff went on. Terrible how low these people will stoop to cheat.

How about less focus on these special schools and programs and more focus on making sure every school has what it needs to educate kids at all levels?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Real question: If the "teach to the test" theory 'works' in China - who says it is supposed to work here - where is that written?

TJ is trying to get away from students who only know how to memorize and take tests. Why is that so "wrong" in Asian parents' eyes? Surely you know how to teach your children something else than "teach to the test"?

Sorry, I don't see your "something else" as a better alternative. The extra focus on the SIS (aka B.S) essays that can also be memmed? The randomness added in by a lottery system? Pray tell, what in your mind is more fair than a test?

Look, FCPS has a lot of taxpayers who do not like the cheating. Get over it.

Before you go on a cheating crusade, realize that there is just as much cheating at your local high school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Real question: If the "teach to the test" theory 'works' in China - who says it is supposed to work here - where is that written?

TJ is trying to get away from students who only know how to memorize and take tests. Why is that so "wrong" in Asian parents' eyes? Surely you know how to teach your children something else than "teach to the test"?

Sorry, I don't see your "something else" as a better alternative. The extra focus on the SIS (aka B.S) essays that can also be memmed? The randomness added in by a lottery system? Pray tell, what in your mind is more fair than a test?

Look, FCPS has a lot of taxpayers who do not like the cheating. Get over it.

Yes, we have to root out white parents bribing doctors to get phony medical diagnosis fir their kids so that they can cheat. We have to do something.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Real question: If the "teach to the test" theory 'works' in China - who says it is supposed to work here - where is that written?

TJ is trying to get away from students who only know how to memorize and take tests. Why is that so "wrong" in Asian parents' eyes? Surely you know how to teach your children something else than "teach to the test"?

Sorry, I don't see your "something else" as a better alternative. The extra focus on the SIS (aka B.S) essays that can also be memmed? The randomness added in by a lottery system? Pray tell, what in your mind is more fair than a test?

Look, FCPS has a lot of taxpayers who do not like the cheating. Get over it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Longfellow has resources to hire private companies making kits for Science Olympiad to coach their team. They spent thousands of dollars on one event and they came first in that. Is this cheating?

Yeah, Longfellow has an overly competitive set of parents. Students do 50% of work and parents do the other 50%. Add to it the sheer amount of money they throw at the program, it is clear why they win.

It is as close to cheating as possible without being illegal. Why do you think they always win? It cannot be that just Longfellow kids are good each and every year for the past 10 years if not more.

The whole Haycock, Longfellow, McLean attracts similar set of parents. They spend their children's childhood focused on winning these awards.

This unfortunately turns out to be loner kids. Nice, intelligent, bright and smart kids. But unfortunately not well adjusted and have tough time later on in life.

I for one, do not envy them. We looked deeply into this and chose to avoid this pyramid. Depends on what you value. No right answer.

I once saw a Longfellow parent draw pictures of other team's design at an invitational. Two parents tag teamed and documented every single design from competing teams. Taking pictures is not allowed, so the parents ended up doing the next best to a picture.

I was amused at that level of dedication at a kids event. I kept track of that particular event and Longfellow went on to win in 2 other competitions.

My child participated in science olympiad. Longfellow used to come at the top in many events. I always thought they must be working really hard.

I used tell my child if they want to get better they need to work harder.

This is cheating.

I also have a child who has been doing science Olympiad. I think my kid is smart and amazing because he is my kid. DH and I have coached a few teams. My kid has placed 4-7th in his events. The first year he ranked last in a study event where DH and I did absolutely nothing. We thought it was an after school science club. DS studied at school for an hour once per week and did not study at home ever. He placed last, maybe it was third to last. The next year, DH coached a team and DH coached hard. He made study guides, gave them practice exams and met multiple times per week. My child’s team came in 7th. The other team that DH coached came in 1st and beat Longfellow. The other team DH coached had a kid who was exceptionally bright so he really absorbed the knowledge. This is the type of kid who should and needs to be at TJ. I hope this new admissions lottery doesn’t screw kids like him.

We have no interest in sending our kids to TJ. Unless my kids are the ones begging us to send them to TJ, I am not planning to push them at all. I would much rather my kids be at the top of their class at our base school than be average at TJ.

+1

Did you hear about the Longfellow parents who weren't allowed photos at Science Olympiad, so they sketched the opposing teams' drawings?

Cheating is a cultural thing, it seems - and it seems FCPS is finally realizing this.

Anonymous wrote:Real question: If the "teach to the test" theory 'works' in China - who says it is supposed to work here - where is that written?

TJ is trying to get away from students who only know how to memorize and take tests. Why is that so "wrong" in Asian parents' eyes? Surely you know how to teach your children something else than "teach to the test"?

Sorry, I don't see your "something else" as a better alternative. The extra focus on the SIS (aka B.S) essays that can also be memmed? The randomness added in by a lottery system? Pray tell, what in your mind is more fair than a test?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you are comparing the best high school in Region 1 with a not-too-good high school in Region 2. Let's look at South Lakes (Region 1) and Mclean (Region 2). Do you honestly think that kids in South Lakes are more affluent or have better opportunities than kids slated for Mclean? Yet, kids in region 1 (including those in the South Lakes pyramid) will have a lower chance of admission to TJ because they are competing with many more students. This lottery, as it is now, separates by regions, not pyramids and will not guarantee an even spread in opportunities according to socioeconomic class. Just my 2 cents.

This. The Regions are a 1/2 baked idea. Why not devide the middle schools into 2 or 3 groups? Place Carson, Rocky Run and Longfellow in one, another set in another, etc. give each group a set number. That way they will ensure that they actually get kids from South Lakes and similar schools.

Ok, will Carson, RR, and Longfellow get the same # of spots as the groups? Because if so, it will turn into the 2 year Hunger Games for kids going to those schools.

I can't believe that some people don't have the imagination to see why the TJ proposal might, just maybe, have legitimate problems with it. Off the top of my head:

- If a student is good enough that they'd get in comfortably on merit, but might be disqualified by lottery, that's unfair to that student. Furthermore, an exceptionally intelligent rising high schooler is smart enough to realize what's happening, and could easily find themselves disillusioned and unmotivated when they see that their efforts aren't correlating with their outcomes. There's no reason to expect a family with a potential to find themselves in those circumstances to willingly consent to the terms of the proposal.

- Gifted students are honest-to-goodness minorities with special needs, and the school board's apparent effort to discredit the fact (not to mention some posters' callous "TJ's no big deal, they'll be fine anywhere" attitude) by putting it up against other minorities borders on offensive.

- It's not at all clear that the proposal will have any effect in regards to its stated goal, to promote URM diversity. It's not even clear that the school board has a functional understanding of the issues inhibiting this goal. At GMU, the largest influx of quality black engineering students came right after GMU's historic Final Four run, suggesting what we all should realize - that there's a cultural component to people's involvement. It should be possible to nurture a culture friendly to URMs without penalizing cultures which already associate success with STEM, and it doesn't look like the current proposal is necessarily going to be successful on either count.

- There's nothing controversial about suggesting that one should be skeptical of the good intentions behind any politically-motivated agenda, regardless of party. If someone is worried that the proposal's goal is to train an acceptance of nerd-targetted coercion and abuse, sugared with the promise of diversity, they'd have every right to be worried until we see a good reason to believe otherwise. This isn't a situation where innocent-until-proven-guilty applies.

- Continuing along the political theme, a highly sought-after capability these days is for awful, incompetent leaders who can't win an argument on merit, to instead get their way by claiming that clueless people aren't being represented well enough in merit-based groups. It would be naive to think that the opportunist wouldn't purposefully confuse URMs with clueless people, nor that this applies only to Trump.

- It's a long known phenomenon that school boards prefer a watered-down curriculum, because it represents less work from their end (less effort in preparation, evaluation, and training; and a larger glut of "happy" parents because their kids aren't having problems in school - implying a larger potential voting base). The best recourse that parents have is that they can use their child's merits to force the schools to provide a reasonable standard of education. Taking merit out of the picture disempowers families when it comes to ensuring that their kids get a good education.

- Someone in another thread cited a similar case where the end result was destroying the school's number 1 standing, with the side effect of popularizing local private schools. If that's a realistic outcome, I'm doubtful that it's a desirable one.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Longfellow has resources to hire private companies making kits for Science Olympiad to coach their team. They spent thousands of dollars on one event and they came first in that. Is this cheating?

Yeah, Longfellow has an overly competitive set of parents. Students do 50% of work and parents do the other 50%. Add to it the sheer amount of money they throw at the program, it is clear why they win.

It is as close to cheating as possible without being illegal. Why do you think they always win? It cannot be that just Longfellow kids are good each and every year for the past 10 years if not more.

The whole Haycock, Longfellow, McLean attracts similar set of parents. They spend their children's childhood focused on winning these awards.

This unfortunately turns out to be loner kids. Nice, intelligent, bright and smart kids. But unfortunately not well adjusted and have tough time later on in life.

I for one, do not envy them. We looked deeply into this and chose to avoid this pyramid. Depends on what you value. No right answer.

I once saw a Longfellow parent draw pictures of other team's design at an invitational. Two parents tag teamed and documented every single design from competing teams. Taking pictures is not allowed, so the parents ended up doing the next best to a picture.

I was amused at that level of dedication at a kids event. I kept track of that particular event and Longfellow went on to win in 2 other competitions.

My child participated in science olympiad. Longfellow used to come at the top in many events. I always thought they must be working really hard.

I used tell my child if they want to get better they need to work harder.

This is cheating.

I also have a child who has been doing science Olympiad. I think my kid is smart and amazing because he is my kid. DH and I have coached a few teams. My kid has placed 4-7th in his events. The first year he ranked last in a study event where DH and I did absolutely nothing. We thought it was an after school science club. DS studied at school for an hour once per week and did not study at home ever. He placed last, maybe it was third to last. The next year, DH coached a team and DH coached hard. He made study guides, gave them practice exams and met multiple times per week. My child’s team came in 7th. The other team that DH coached came in 1st and beat Longfellow. The other team DH coached had a kid who was exceptionally bright so he really absorbed the knowledge. This is the type of kid who should and needs to be at TJ. I hope this new admissions lottery doesn’t screw kids like him.

We have no interest in sending our kids to TJ. Unless my kids are the ones begging us to send them to TJ, I am not planning to push them at all. I would much rather my kids be at the top of their class at our base school than be average at TJ.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Longfellow has resources to hire private companies making kits for Science Olympiad to coach their team. They spent thousands of dollars on one event and they came first in that. Is this cheating?

Yeah, Longfellow has an overly competitive set of parents. Students do 50% of work and parents do the other 50%. Add to it the sheer amount of money they throw at the program, it is clear why they win.

It is as close to cheating as possible without being illegal. Why do you think they always win? It cannot be that just Longfellow kids are good each and every year for the past 10 years if not more.

The whole Haycock, Longfellow, McLean attracts similar set of parents. They spend their children's childhood focused on winning these awards.

This unfortunately turns out to be loner kids. Nice, intelligent, bright and smart kids. But unfortunately not well adjusted and have tough time later on in life.

I for one, do not envy them. We looked deeply into this and chose to avoid this pyramid. Depends on what you value. No right answer.

Wow. You seem a bit obsessed. We weren’t at Haycock and didn’t push our kids into Math Counts or Science Olympiad, but our kids got an excellent education at Longfellow and McLean. McLean was lower key than Longfellow, and the extra-curriculars (band, musicals, student publications, crew and other sports) were great and available to kids with a range of interests and aptitudes. For our kids, at least, it was probably a better experience than TJ would have been.

After all these discussions, I started to wonder what the real purpose of TJ is supposed to be. I went looking and I found it defined on http://www.doe.virginia.gov/instruction/governors_school_programs/:
Purpose of the Governor's Schools
Governor's Schools give gifted students academic and visual and performing arts opportunities beyond those normally available in the students' home schools. Students are able to focus on a specific area of intellectual or artistic strength and interest and to study in a way that best suits the gifted learner's needs. Each program stresses non-traditional teaching and learning techniques. For example, small-group instruction, hands-on-experiences, research, field studies, or realistic or artistic productions are major elements in the instructional design at all schools. Students become scientists, writers, artists, and performers as they work with professional mentors and instructors. Every effort is made to tailor learning to needs of the community of learners that compose the program.

The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners.

I don't see how a lottery system with quotas per region fit into this description. I agree that there are improvements that can be done in the elementary and middle schools to prepare more people, including minorities, for STEM and encourage more of them to apply to TJ. When striving for equality, it is better to raise from the bottom instead of trying to chop off the top.

After all these discussions, I started to wonder what the real purpose of TJ is supposed to be. I went looking and I found it defined on http://www.doe.virginia.gov/instruction/governors_school_programs/:
Purpose of the Governor's Schools
Governor's Schools give gifted students academic and visual and performing arts opportunities beyond those normally available in the students' home schools. Students are able to focus on a specific area of intellectual or artistic strength and interest and to study in a way that best suits the gifted learner's needs. Each program stresses non-traditional teaching and learning techniques. For example, small-group instruction, hands-on-experiences, research, field studies, or realistic or artistic productions are major elements in the instructional design at all schools. Students become scientists, writers, artists, and performers as they work with professional mentors and instructors. Every effort is made to tailor learning to needs of the community of learners that compose the program.

The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners.

I don't see how a lottery system with quotas per region fit into this description. I agree that there are improvements that can be done in the elementary and middle schools to prepare more people, including minorities, for STEM and encourage more of them to apply to TJ. When striving for equality, it is better to raise from the bottom instead of trying to chop off the top.

Prepping is not cheating.

Taking a secured exam, signing a pledge not to reveal the contents of that exam, and then bringing questions back to your prep company so that they can develop a test bank for future students that eliminates the purpose of that secured exam, is cheating.

Spending huge amounts of time and money on that prep company with no knowledge that their “secret” is ill-gotten information is not cheating.

An admissions system that incentivizes spending huge amounts of time and money to prepare for a gatekeeping mechanism that has very little to do with the school that kids are trying to get into is severely and needlessly classist.