Anonymous wrote:So many students are choosing between W&M and UVA. UVA is the popular school but it’s huge and with the OOS students who are top of their class it’s VERY competitive in all ways: socially, admittance to business and other schools and so on. W&M is a bit more low key and much smaller. Gives an individual student more opportunities.

UVA is "huge" like Penn and Cornell are huge.

Cornell enrollment: 24,027
UVA enrollment: 25,018
Penn enrollment: 26,675

Anonymous wrote:So many students are choosing between W&M and UVA. UVA is the popular school but it’s huge and with the OOS students who are top of their class it’s VERY competitive in all ways: socially, admittance to business and other schools and so on. W&M is a bit more low key and much smaller. Gives an individual student more opportunities.

I can understand that, and to some extent I understand the self-selected applicant pool perspective. And yet ... drops in US News rankings (the coin of the realm) and increases in acceptance rates become self fulfilling things. It sounds like the school is planning to add to its freshman class and go SAT optional for a three year pilot program. That is to say, something seems to be off in terms of it not being very popular.

So many students are choosing between W&M and UVA. UVA is the popular school but it’s huge and with the OOS students who are top of their class it’s VERY competitive in all ways: socially, admittance to business and other schools and so on. W&M is a bit more low key and much smaller. Gives an individual student more opportunities.

William and Mary’s acceptance rate was 42 percent with an applicant pool that was down. UVA’s was l, I think, around 20 or 21 percent with an applicant pool that was slightly up. Pretty much the same ACT scores, but a big gap between percentage in the top 10 percent. So we know where nova kids think the popular place is. I’m not judging. But wouldn’t this impact the vibe?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a little concerned by some of the posts about grade deflation because graduate/professional school will be on the horizon. Also concerning is the announcement regarding voluntary furloughs for employees and leadership taking salary cuts. However, I know that COVID-19's financial impact is being felt everywhere including the Ivies and there is widespread uncertainty in higher ed.

There is no grade deflation anywhere in higher education. Only varying degrees of grade inflation. Look at Gradinflation.com. Most recent average GPAs at some top publics:

Michigan - 3.37
W&M - 3.33
UVA - 3.32
Berkeley - 3.29
Washington - 3.28
UCLA - 3.27
UNC - 3.23
Texas - 3.22
VT - 3.15

The salary cuts from leaders are being done many places (UVA did the same). They are trying to set an example in case layoffs are needed (if room and board revenue is lost if students have to be sent home again).

Average GPA tells you little when you select students all from the top 10% of their class and top 5% nationwide SAT scores. Schools have become so much more narrowly targeted and so much more selective that it makes no sense to reset a standard curve. So if you compare work generated from different schools, what it takes to get a B in one school vs a B in the other, that's where the difference lies. I've been a prof in multiple institutions and it varies WIDELY even if students tend to generally end up with B's at varying institutions--what counts at as a B in one school wouldn't get you a D in another.

Not sure what that means. These schools have similar standards for entering students. The selective private schools tend to have the highest average GPAs.

I mean that you would expect all these students to be earning an average of 3.3 (or higher) if there is anything like a benchmarked standard in what counts as
an above average performance in Econ 101 or Linear Algebra or Comparative literature or Advanced Spanish or whatever. You would expect the schools with high and narrow admissions standards to have higher average grades than a school with lower admissions standards, rather than just treating all these top students as your reference curve in a class. I think many of these selective schools have too tough of grading if grad schools are going to have strict cut-offs.

My original point was a very narrow one: W&M's average GPA is in line with similar public universities (it is actually toward the top of this set). I made this because of the earlier comment where a PP said "I am a little concerned by some of the posts about grade deflation because graduate/professional school will be on the horizon."

I get your point. It also explains in part why top privates tend to have the highest average GPAs.

I think all the public schools in Virginia have a voluntary temporary furlough policy (I know at least 3 do)--this is conveyed to administrators and staff not as primarily a cost-cutting measure but rather as flexibility for people whose lives are stressed by suddenly having to homeschool or care for a parent etc. People can choose to cut their hours by 10-20%. It can save money (which the schools of course need given the increased expenses and decreased revenues caused by Covid) but it's not being pushed at all.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a little concerned by some of the posts about grade deflation because graduate/professional school will be on the horizon. Also concerning is the announcement regarding voluntary furloughs for employees and leadership taking salary cuts. However, I know that COVID-19's financial impact is being felt everywhere including the Ivies and there is widespread uncertainty in higher ed.

There is no grade deflation anywhere in higher education. Only varying degrees of grade inflation. Look at Gradinflation.com. Most recent average GPAs at some top publics:

Michigan - 3.37
W&M - 3.33
UVA - 3.32
Berkeley - 3.29
Washington - 3.28
UCLA - 3.27
UNC - 3.23
Texas - 3.22
VT - 3.15

The salary cuts from leaders are being done many places (UVA did the same). They are trying to set an example in case layoffs are needed (if room and board revenue is lost if students have to be sent home again).

Average GPA tells you little when you select students all from the top 10% of their class and top 5% nationwide SAT scores. Schools have become so much more narrowly targeted and so much more selective that it makes no sense to reset a standard curve. So if you compare work generated from different schools, what it takes to get a B in one school vs a B in the other, that's where the difference lies. I've been a prof in multiple institutions and it varies WIDELY even if students tend to generally end up with B's at varying institutions--what counts at as a B in one school wouldn't get you a D in another.

Not sure what that means. These schools have similar standards for entering students. The selective private schools tend to have the highest average GPAs.

I mean that you would expect all these students to be earning an average of 3.3 (or higher) if there is anything like a benchmarked standard in what counts as
an above average performance in Econ 101 or Linear Algebra or Comparative literature or Advanced Spanish or whatever. You would expect the schools with high and narrow admissions standards to have higher average grades than a school with lower admissions standards, rather than just treating all these top students as your reference curve in a class. I think many of these selective schools have too tough of grading if grad schools are going to have strict cut-offs.

Anonymous wrote:But how is it compared to other universities especially public flagships? AA is not exactly all that amazing if all the other universities have AAA+

S&P does not have AAA+. AA is second to AAA. "An obligor rated 'AA' has very strong capacity to meet its financial commitments. It differs from the highest-rated obligors only to a small degree." https://www.standardandpoors.com/en_US/web/guest/article/-/view/sourceId/504352. I think there were only 5 or so AAA public universities not too long ago. Moody's is the other big rating agency in higher ed. It is thought they are somewhat favored because their ratings are more lenient. Even high prestige universities have been showing some strain by taking on debt. See story including Northwestern and Washington University. https://www.chronicle.com/article/how-chasing-prestige-is-starting-to-strain-some-elite-institutions/?cid2=gen_login_refresh&cid=gen_sign_in#:~:text=At%20least%20six%20institutions%20held,financial%20positions%20graded%20by%20Moody's.

Public universities in Virginia generally use the state to issue bonds. Virginia is still a AAA rated state.

The Covid situation is threatening even to institutions that seemed very solid before the pandemic. When UVA hospital had elective procedures suspended, it went from a profitable hospital to one that lost $80M a month and furloughed 600 workers. Even rich schools like Harvard have huge debts to fund its Allston campus expansion. If the funding mechanism for that is broken (huge Federal government deficits cause decreases in federal R&D funding, foreign students are not attending, etc.) the system breaks down.

The reason why the W&M leadership (three people) took pay cuts for the duration of the year is because other schools have been doing it (UVA had already done it). These schools are doing it because they will all have shortfalls if the back to school model doesn't work and they will not have expected room and board revenues. They would then need to furlough, so the leadership pay cuts are in preparation for that possibility.

But how is it compared to other universities especially public flagships? AA is not exactly all that amazing if all the other universities have AAA+

I google W & M Bond rating, and found:

https://www.wm.edu/about/administration/bov/_documents/meetings/2018_2019/2018-11-financial-affairs-vims-2018-debt-management-report.pdf

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a little concerned by some of the posts about grade deflation because graduate/professional school will be on the horizon. Also concerning is the announcement regarding voluntary furloughs for employees and leadership taking salary cuts. However, I know that COVID-19's financial impact is being felt everywhere including the Ivies and there is widespread uncertainty in higher ed.

Schools that are best positioned are massive public research institutions that are often flagships and have state governments supportive of higher education (i.e. Berkeley, UCLA, Texas, Washington) or universities with massive endowments (UVA, Michigan, Ivies, Texas again).

W&M is neither a research institution, nor a flagship, nor does it have a large endowment for its size. The result will be increasing enrollment, decreasing standards and worse faculty due to lack of competitive salaries (which has been true for a while at the school).

You tout the big public research schools for faculty. Take a look at Niche ratings based on surveys. If you look at Michigan, UCLA, Berkeley, Washington, Texas, UVA, and UNC, you will see that W&M scores higher than every single one of these schools in every single one of these ratings:

Professors put a lot of effort into their classes
Easy to get classes students want
Professors are passionate about what they teach
Professors care about student success
Professors are engaging and easy to understand
Professors are approachable and helpful

And what public university of W&M's size has a larger endowment?

I don't doubt that, I already said W&M faculty are more helpful than other public/research schools. The post you are replying to is about survival post-COVID though.

W&M's bond rating is AA. That would put it in the top 2% or so among colleges and universities in the U.S.

Where do you find this information?

Anonymous wrote:William & Mary sends a huge number of students to study abroad programs and is one of the leading producers of Peace Corps volunteers. Based on my knowledge of grads in the work force, it’s a sample size of smart, hard working and kind people. I don’t get the anger on this thread. VA has great college options and even a guaranteed transfer option to UVA or William & Mary from nova.

It is largely one bitter guy who didn't attend W&M.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a little concerned by some of the posts about grade deflation because graduate/professional school will be on the horizon. Also concerning is the announcement regarding voluntary furloughs for employees and leadership taking salary cuts. However, I know that COVID-19's financial impact is being felt everywhere including the Ivies and there is widespread uncertainty in higher ed.

Schools that are best positioned are massive public research institutions that are often flagships and have state governments supportive of higher education (i.e. Berkeley, UCLA, Texas, Washington) or universities with massive endowments (UVA, Michigan, Ivies, Texas again).

W&M is neither a research institution, nor a flagship, nor does it have a large endowment for its size. The result will be increasing enrollment, decreasing standards and worse faculty due to lack of competitive salaries (which has been true for a while at the school).

You tout the big public research schools for faculty. Take a look at Niche ratings based on surveys. If you look at Michigan, UCLA, Berkeley, Washington, Texas, UVA, and UNC, you will see that W&M scores higher than every single one of these schools in every single one of these ratings:

Professors put a lot of effort into their classes
Easy to get classes students want
Professors are passionate about what they teach
Professors care about student success
Professors are engaging and easy to understand
Professors are approachable and helpful

And what public university of W&M's size has a larger endowment?

I don't doubt that, I already said W&M faculty are more helpful than other public/research schools. The post you are replying to is about survival post-COVID though.

W&M's bond rating is AA. That would put it in the top 2% or so among colleges and universities in the U.S.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a little concerned by some of the posts about grade deflation because graduate/professional school will be on the horizon. Also concerning is the announcement regarding voluntary furloughs for employees and leadership taking salary cuts. However, I know that COVID-19's financial impact is being felt everywhere including the Ivies and there is widespread uncertainty in higher ed.

There is no grade deflation anywhere in higher education. Only varying degrees of grade inflation. Look at Gradinflation.com. Most recent average GPAs at some top publics:

Michigan - 3.37
W&M - 3.33
UVA - 3.32
Berkeley - 3.29
Washington - 3.28
UCLA - 3.27
UNC - 3.23
Texas - 3.22
VT - 3.15

The salary cuts from leaders are being done many places (UVA did the same). They are trying to set an example in case layoffs are needed (if room and board revenue is lost if students have to be sent home again).

Average GPA tells you little when you select students all from the top 10% of their class and top 5% nationwide SAT scores. Schools have become so much more narrowly targeted and so much more selective that it makes no sense to reset a standard curve. So if you compare work generated from different schools, what it takes to get a B in one school vs a B in the other, that's where the difference lies. I've been a prof in multiple institutions and it varies WIDELY even if students tend to generally end up with B's at varying institutions--what counts at as a B in one school wouldn't get you a D in another.

Not sure what that means. These schools have similar standards for entering students. The selective private schools tend to have the highest average GPAs.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a little concerned by some of the posts about grade deflation because graduate/professional school will be on the horizon. Also concerning is the announcement regarding voluntary furloughs for employees and leadership taking salary cuts. However, I know that COVID-19's financial impact is being felt everywhere including the Ivies and there is widespread uncertainty in higher ed.

There is no grade deflation anywhere in higher education. Only varying degrees of grade inflation. Look at Gradinflation.com. Most recent average GPAs at some top publics:

Michigan - 3.37
W&M - 3.33
UVA - 3.32
Berkeley - 3.29
Washington - 3.28
UCLA - 3.27
UNC - 3.23
Texas - 3.22
VT - 3.15

The salary cuts from leaders are being done many places (UVA did the same). They are trying to set an example in case layoffs are needed (if room and board revenue is lost if students have to be sent home again).

Average GPA tells you little when you select students all from the top 10% of their class and top 5% nationwide SAT scores. Schools have become so much more narrowly targeted and so much more selective that it makes no sense to reset a standard curve. So if you compare work generated from different schools, what it takes to get a B in one school vs a B in the other, that's where the difference lies. I've been a prof in multiple institutions and it varies WIDELY even if students tend to generally end up with B's at varying institutions--what counts at as a B in one school wouldn't get you a D in another.