Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just want to give some additional background here on BLM specifically and antisemitism:

Why Do Black Activists Care About Palestine?
A controversy over anti-Israel statements in the Movement for Black Lives political platform shows the long history of tension between Jews and blacks in the U.S.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/496088/

This is from 2016. Due to this, I’m not quite willing to join the BLM movement band wagon but I would reconsider if I felt they really recanted on the anti Semitic stuff. I am not supporting the Women’s March any longer for the same reason.

Thank you. The feeling of not wanting you involved in the movement is mutual. We have more than enough of our Jewish brothers and sisters are more interested in supporting the causes than looking to be offended.

I don’t think this is a kind response or a response that would help to make the world a better place for all minorities. I don’t think the way to win arguments is to ignore the other side’s argument or comments but to really listen and try to understand where the person is coming from and discuss that. That said, I don’t find DCUM a great forum for that generally, or at least with topics I really care about like antisemitism.

Anonymous wrote:I just want to give some additional background here on BLM specifically and antisemitism:

Why Do Black Activists Care About Palestine?
A controversy over anti-Israel statements in the Movement for Black Lives political platform shows the long history of tension between Jews and blacks in the U.S.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/496088/

This is from 2016. Due to this, I’m not quite willing to join the BLM movement band wagon but I would reconsider if I felt they really recanted on the anti Semitic stuff. I am not supporting the Women’s March any longer for the same reason.

Thank you. The feeling of not wanting you involved in the movement is mutual. We have more than enough of our Jewish brothers and sisters are more interested in supporting the causes than looking to be offended.

I just want to give some additional background here on BLM specifically and antisemitism:

Why Do Black Activists Care About Palestine?
A controversy over anti-Israel statements in the Movement for Black Lives political platform shows the long history of tension between Jews and blacks in the U.S.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/496088/

This is from 2016. Due to this, I’m not quite willing to join the BLM movement band wagon but I would reconsider if I felt they really recanted on the anti Semitic stuff. I am not supporting the Women’s March any longer for the same reason.

Lastly, I think you cannot understand, if you’re not Jewish, what it’s like to, less than 100 years ago, have more than 50% of your population WORLDWIDE slaughtered in a systematic fashion by a government while the world did nothing.

Don’t be fooled — the Allies were there to fight Hitler, not prevent the Holocaust.

Is it the same as slavery? No.

Is it traumatic as a collective? Absolutely.

Why do synagogues have police officers and churches don’t? That’s in 2020 in the USA, not in 1930s Germany.

Synagogues in Europe are practically prisons in terms of their security. That’s also in 2020.

Are we better off than black Americans? Yes.

But never fool yourselves into thinking we are essentially white Christians. We are not and we likely never will be.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Ok so that’s DuBois.

What about Carmichael? What about the Crown Heights riot?

Jews assimilating has been a survival tactic. When we make our religion clear, we get attacked. That’s not becoming the white man; that’s hiding for survival.

I understand. Jews assimilate for various reasons, survival being one of them. But you are fixated on the reasons for assimilation while Baldwin was discussing the impact of assimilation and his community's perception of assimilated Jews.

I see forms of this same debate frequently on DCUM. Variations such as "Are Jews white?" or "Do Jews benefit from white privilege?" come up from time to time. I think this reflects a struggle between attempting to both assimilate and retain a separate identity. Many Jews end up with a foot in both camps. Being part of the dominate culture and apart from it at the same time. The same may well be true of other groups if we analyzed them enough.

His community’s perception of assimilated Jews as being essentially white is simply wrong. On a per capita basis we are victims of hate crimes more than any other group. We may look white, but we are not treated as such in America.

You’re right that we straddle 2 worlds, like many minority groups. We are not white, though the fact that many of us can pass as white does give us some privilege, but it does not stop the above from being true.

I think the fact that Jews and Blacks are both oppressed minorities—albeit on different levels of intensity—is why the Councilwoman asked BLM to support anti-Semitism.

It would benefit all of us if we could make common cause with one another, rather than adopting what Baldwin was describing as his community’s views of Jews, or worse, saying what Carmichael did.

Anonymous wrote:
Ok so that’s DuBois.

What about Carmichael? What about the Crown Heights riot?

Jews assimilating has been a survival tactic. When we make our religion clear, we get attacked. That’s not becoming the white man; that’s hiding for survival.

I understand. Jews assimilate for various reasons, survival being one of them. But you are fixated on the reasons for assimilation while Baldwin was discussing the impact of assimilation and his community's perception of assimilated Jews.

I see forms of this same debate frequently on DCUM. Variations such as "Are Jews white?" or "Do Jews benefit from white privilege?" come up from time to time. I think this reflects a struggle between attempting to both assimilate and retain a separate identity. Many Jews end up with a foot in both camps. Being part of the dominate culture and apart from it at the same time. The same may well be true of other groups if we analyzed them enough.

If assimilation is a survival tactic, that’s not a win.

The ONLY people who can scream from the rooftops as to who they are are white Christians.

Everyone else has compromised who they proclaim to be publicly, so that they can be accepted by the white Christians.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“ In the American context, the most ironical thing about Negro anti-Semitism is that the Negro is really condemning the Jew for having become an American white man--for having become, in effect, a Christian.”

This is SO wrong, I can’t even begin. He displays absolutely zero knowledge of the fact that Jews, on a per capita basis, are more likely to be victims of hate crimes than any other group.

We have survived primarily because we have hidden who we are. When we have made it clear who we are, we have been attacked.

I think you are actually agreeing with him, though you don't appear to realize it.

No. I’m really not.

He is so massively wrong about how he is casting the American public reaction to the Warsaw Ghetto, Israel, etc. I have been researching to find ANY evidence that those things were cast as “morally righteous struggles.” I would welcome anyone finding evidence to corroborate what he wrote.

You said, "We have survived primarily because we have hidden who we are". In other words, by assimilating Jews have avoided most anti-Semitism. Baldwin's point is that as Jews assimilated, black people saw them as white people rather than another oppressed minority. These are really two sides of the same coin.

It is a bit hard to provide evidence of American public opinion prior to 1967. But I can deduce from this letter:

https://credo.library.umass.edu/view/pageturn/mums312-b141-i058/#page/1/mode/1up

that a commemoration of the 10th anniversary of the uprising was held in New York for "paying tribute to the Ghetto heroes" and among the invited speakers was W. E. B. DuBois.

This article seems to suggest that public opinion and US policy was strongly pro-Israel in the 1960s:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/24916095?seq=1

Ok so that’s DuBois.

What about Carmichael? What about the Crown Heights riot?

Jews assimilating has been a survival tactic. When we make our religion clear, we get attacked. That’s not becoming the white man; that’s hiding for survival.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“ In the American context, the most ironical thing about Negro anti-Semitism is that the Negro is really condemning the Jew for having become an American white man--for having become, in effect, a Christian.”

This is SO wrong, I can’t even begin. He displays absolutely zero knowledge of the fact that Jews, on a per capita basis, are more likely to be victims of hate crimes than any other group.

We have survived primarily because we have hidden who we are. When we have made it clear who we are, we have been attacked.

I think you are actually agreeing with him, though you don't appear to realize it.

No. I’m really not.

He is so massively wrong about how he is casting the American public reaction to the Warsaw Ghetto, Israel, etc. I have been researching to find ANY evidence that those things were cast as “morally righteous struggles.” I would welcome anyone finding evidence to corroborate what he wrote.

You said, "We have survived primarily because we have hidden who we are". In other words, by assimilating Jews have avoided most anti-Semitism. Baldwin's point is that as Jews assimilated, black people saw them as white people rather than another oppressed minority. These are really two sides of the same coin.

It is a bit hard to provide evidence of American public opinion prior to 1967. But I can deduce from this letter:

https://credo.library.umass.edu/view/pageturn/mums312-b141-i058/#page/1/mode/1up

that a commemoration of the 10th anniversary of the uprising was held in New York for "paying tribute to the Ghetto heroes" and among the invited speakers was W. E. B. DuBois.

This article seems to suggest that public opinion and US policy was strongly pro-Israel in the 1960s:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/24916095?seq=1

I also submit this to you all for your consideration:

According to Anti-Defamation League surveys begun in 1964 (my addition: and last accessed in 2006), African Americans are significantly more likely than white Americans to hold antisemitic beliefs, although there is a strong correlation between education level and the rejection of antisemitic stereotypes for all races. However, black Americans of all education levels are nevertheless significantly more likely than whites of the same education level to be antisemitic. In the 1998 survey, blacks (34%) were nearly four times as likely as whites (9%) to fall into the most antisemitic category (those agreeing with at least 6 of 11 statements that were potentially or clearly antisemitic). Among blacks with no college education, 43% fell into the most antisemitic group (vs. 18% for the general population), which fell to 27% among blacks with some college education, and 18% among blacks with a four-year college degree (vs. 5% for the general population)

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“ In the American context, the most ironical thing about Negro anti-Semitism is that the Negro is really condemning the Jew for having become an American white man--for having become, in effect, a Christian.”

This is SO wrong, I can’t even begin. He displays absolutely zero knowledge of the fact that Jews, on a per capita basis, are more likely to be victims of hate crimes than any other group.

We have survived primarily because we have hidden who we are. When we have made it clear who we are, we have been attacked.

I think you are actually agreeing with him, though you don't appear to realize it.

No. I’m really not.

He is so massively wrong about how he is casting the American public reaction to the Warsaw Ghetto, Israel, etc. I have been researching to find ANY evidence that those things were cast as “morally righteous struggles.” I would welcome anyone finding evidence to corroborate what he wrote.

Oh and please note that I am interested in evidence from 1967 or prior; in other words, evidence to support what Baldwin is arguing about how America viewed Jews.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jews are still marginalized, but we shouldn’t be doing the suffering Olympics.

“Oppression Olympics” is rather dismissive of what is reality in American society. When one speaks of “marginalized groups” this is largely reflective of ethnic groups or races subject to unequal and/or oppression by the state or by society at large physically, socially and economically.

Whether you want to acknowledge it, America does have a racial and ethnic caste system. A system of which American blacks and the indigenous populations are at the bottom. You referring that as the “oppression olympics” is simply aligning with the ideology that maintains this caste structure. If you are not aware of these concepts and are interested in learning more, please read up on it.

I am aware of it, but saying that Jews have “become, in effect, Christians” and “are white men” is so dismissive of ongoing anti-Semitism.

I ask you all to also respond to this quote from Stokey Carmichael in 1970: “I have never admired a White man, but the greatest of them was Hitler.“ Is that supposed to be anything but anti-Semitic?

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“ In the American context, the most ironical thing about Negro anti-Semitism is that the Negro is really condemning the Jew for having become an American white man--for having become, in effect, a Christian.”

This is SO wrong, I can’t even begin. He displays absolutely zero knowledge of the fact that Jews, on a per capita basis, are more likely to be victims of hate crimes than any other group.

We have survived primarily because we have hidden who we are. When we have made it clear who we are, we have been attacked.

I think you are actually agreeing with him, though you don't appear to realize it.

No. I’m really not.

He is so massively wrong about how he is casting the American public reaction to the Warsaw Ghetto, Israel, etc. I have been researching to find ANY evidence that those things were cast as “morally righteous struggles.” I would welcome anyone finding evidence to corroborate what he wrote.

Anonymous wrote:Jews are still marginalized, but we shouldn’t be doing the suffering Olympics.

“Oppression Olympics” is rather dismissive of what is reality in American society. When one speaks of “marginalized groups” this is largely reflective of ethnic groups or races subject to unequal and/or oppression by the state or by society at large physically, socially and economically.

Whether you want to acknowledge it, America does have a racial and ethnic caste system. A system of which American blacks and the indigenous populations are at the bottom. You referring that as the “oppression olympics” is simply aligning with the ideology that maintains this caste structure. If you are not aware of these concepts and are interested in learning more, please read up on it.

Anonymous wrote:“ In the American context, the most ironical thing about Negro anti-Semitism is that the Negro is really condemning the Jew for having become an American white man--for having become, in effect, a Christian.”

This is SO wrong, I can’t even begin. He displays absolutely zero knowledge of the fact that Jews, on a per capita basis, are more likely to be victims of hate crimes than any other group.

We have survived primarily because we have hidden who we are. When we have made it clear who we are, we have been attacked.

I think you are actually agreeing with him, though you don't appear to realize it.