Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are not agnostic if you attending church and want t o study the bible.

You need a wider world view. You can be a Unitarian and an agnostic. You can also belong to any religion and be seeking a different perspective. Sorry that your world is so narrow.

There are UUs who are secular humanists.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are either atheist or agnostic, not both. If you waiver you are an agnostic, not atheist.

Sigh.

Again, nope. It has nothing to do with "wavering". It has to do with what you claim to know. "Gnostic" refers to knowledge, not belief.

Go back and read the thread, with particular attention to the cartoons, if you wish to understand what the vast majority of atheists believe.

Citation that the vast majority of atheists "believe" in these definitions?

My use of the word belief was WRT atheism and what it is.

I posted a video from the leading internet/TV show on atheism - the Atheist Experience -- to explain it. The video is from 2002, so any indication it is "new jargon" is fallacious.

Here's another citation from a group you've probably heard of, American Atheists:

https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/about-atheism/

Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods.
Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Older dictionaries define atheism as “a belief that there is no God.” Clearly, theistic influence taints these definitions. The fact that dictionaries define Atheism as “there is no God” betrays the (mono)theistic influence. Without the (mono)theistic influence, the definition would at least read “there are no gods.”

Enough for you?

I'm sorry - the "vast majority of atheists" haven't watched that video or heard of American Atheists.

From my experience, I'd say most atheists would use these definitions:
atheist = doesn't believe in any god
agnostic = not sure if there are gods or not

OK so give me a few minutes and I will call the vast majority of atheists up and ask them, since references from 2 leading sources are not enough apparently.

As for your assertion:

atheist = doesn't believe in any god
agnostic = not sure if there are gods or not

Sure. But both of those can be true at the same time. They are to me. The second "but with the same level of belief in god that I have in faries or unicorns" as with Dawkins.

OK. But not to the "vast majority of atheists".

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are either atheist or agnostic, not both. If you waiver you are an agnostic, not atheist.

Sigh.

Again, nope. It has nothing to do with "wavering". It has to do with what you claim to know. "Gnostic" refers to knowledge, not belief.

Go back and read the thread, with particular attention to the cartoons, if you wish to understand what the vast majority of atheists believe.

Citation that the vast majority of atheists "believe" in these definitions?

My use of the word belief was WRT atheism and what it is.

I posted a video from the leading internet/TV show on atheism - the Atheist Experience -- to explain it. The video is from 2002, so any indication it is "new jargon" is fallacious.

Here's another citation from a group you've probably heard of, American Atheists:

https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/about-atheism/

Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods.
Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Older dictionaries define atheism as “a belief that there is no God.” Clearly, theistic influence taints these definitions. The fact that dictionaries define Atheism as “there is no God” betrays the (mono)theistic influence. Without the (mono)theistic influence, the definition would at least read “there are no gods.”

Enough for you?

DP. These are all well and good and there are obviously a few definitions, which doesn’t bother me.

What does bother me is that your citations don’t even try to address the distinction between atheism and agnosticism, which has been the subject of the last 4-5 pages. And which is what you were making claims about, and for which somebody (not me but she’s right) ask you to give a citation.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are either atheist or agnostic, not both. If you waiver you are an agnostic, not atheist.

Sigh.

Again, nope. It has nothing to do with "wavering". It has to do with what you claim to know. "Gnostic" refers to knowledge, not belief.

Go back and read the thread, with particular attention to the cartoons, if you wish to understand what the vast majority of atheists believe.

Citation that the vast majority of atheists "believe" in these definitions?

My use of the word belief was WRT atheism and what it is.

I posted a video from the leading internet/TV show on atheism - the Atheist Experience -- to explain it. The video is from 2002, so any indication it is "new jargon" is fallacious.

Here's another citation from a group you've probably heard of, American Atheists:

https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/about-atheism/

Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods.
Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Older dictionaries define atheism as “a belief that there is no God.” Clearly, theistic influence taints these definitions. The fact that dictionaries define Atheism as “there is no God” betrays the (mono)theistic influence. Without the (mono)theistic influence, the definition would at least read “there are no gods.”

Enough for you?

I'm sorry - the "vast majority of atheists" haven't watched that video or heard of American Atheists.

From my experience, I'd say most atheists would use these definitions:
atheist = doesn't believe in any god
agnostic = not sure if there are gods or not

OK so give me a few minutes and I will call the vast majority of atheists up and ask them, since references from 2 leading sources are not enough apparently.

As for your assertion:

atheist = doesn't believe in any god
agnostic = not sure if there are gods or not

Sure. But both of those can be true at the same time. They are to me. The second "but with the same level of belief in god that I have in faries or unicorns" as with Dawkins.

Maybe consider some podcasts?

(Sorry I can only rec Orthodox ones!)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are either atheist or agnostic, not both. If you waiver you are an agnostic, not atheist.

Sigh.

Again, nope. It has nothing to do with "wavering". It has to do with what you claim to know. "Gnostic" refers to knowledge, not belief.

Go back and read the thread, with particular attention to the cartoons, if you wish to understand what the vast majority of atheists believe.

Citation that the vast majority of atheists "believe" in these definitions?

My use of the word belief was WRT atheism and what it is.

I posted a video from the leading internet/TV show on atheism - the Atheist Experience -- to explain it. The video is from 2002, so any indication it is "new jargon" is fallacious.

Here's another citation from a group you've probably heard of, American Atheists:

https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/about-atheism/

Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods.
Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Older dictionaries define atheism as “a belief that there is no God.” Clearly, theistic influence taints these definitions. The fact that dictionaries define Atheism as “there is no God” betrays the (mono)theistic influence. Without the (mono)theistic influence, the definition would at least read “there are no gods.”

Enough for you?

I'm sorry - the "vast majority of atheists" haven't watched that video or heard of American Atheists.

From my experience, I'd say most atheists would use these definitions:
atheist = doesn't believe in any god
agnostic = not sure if there are gods or not

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are not agnostic if you attending church and want t o study the bible.

Not true at all. Besides the fact that there are plenty of atheists and agnostics (often closeted) who attend church regularly (to meet some kind of expectation--family, social, etc), besides the fact that the UU church has NO doctrinal requirements at all BUT does have the "Six Sources" which include Judeo-Christian sources AND a hymnal which includes hymns about God as well as readings from the Bible (among other books), there can be plenty of reasons for an agnostic to want to read and explore the Bible--possibly to challenge one's own current belief or lack thereof, to explore it in the sense of literature or history or in comparison to what other religions say.

This isn’t it. OP is not atheist. She’s agnostic if she’s in between atheist and the possibility of something there.

You can be agnostic AND atheist at the same time. Nearly all atheists are. And, you can be both and attend a Unitarian church - or any other church. You just don't believe and attend for social reasons, or to keep familial peace. I wouldn't do that, but it is possible.

This is OP. I differentiate between being agnostic and atheist - I do not consider myself to be atheist. The UU church that I attend has a congregation that takes more of a humanist approach and it does have many people who consider themselves to be agnostic or atheist. I started attending the church because my older son had questions about religion and I wanted a church that was welcoming to all and that encouraged exploration of different religious beliefs. I’m not sure that I am getting all that much from the church, though, which is why I’d like to explore religion on my own. Partly for my own benefit - to see if anything strikes a chord in me and makes me lean toward having some kind of belief and also for general educational purposes - and partly so that I have more of a base of knowledge to offer for my kids.

OP, I went to a UU church a couple times with my DD because she expressed an interest in religion (I'm agnostic & my DH is atheist altho we were both raised Christian). I took a class at our local UU church called "Faith for the Nonbeliever" basically to vet the place & see if I felt comfortable taking my child there. Altho it wasn't super Bible-focused it might interest you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are either atheist or agnostic, not both. If you waiver you are an agnostic, not atheist.

Sigh.

Again, nope. It has nothing to do with "wavering". It has to do with what you claim to know. "Gnostic" refers to knowledge, not belief.

Go back and read the thread, with particular attention to the cartoons, if you wish to understand what the vast majority of atheists believe.

Citation that the vast majority of atheists "believe" in these definitions?

My use of the word belief was WRT atheism and what it is.

I posted a video from the leading internet/TV show on atheism - the Atheist Experience -- to explain it. The video is from 2002, so any indication it is "new jargon" is fallacious.

Here's another citation from a group you've probably heard of, American Atheists:

https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/about-atheism/

Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods.
Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Older dictionaries define atheism as “a belief that there is no God.” Clearly, theistic influence taints these definitions. The fact that dictionaries define Atheism as “there is no God” betrays the (mono)theistic influence. Without the (mono)theistic influence, the definition would at least read “there are no gods.”

Enough for you?

Most atheists believe there is no God or they would be agnostic.

Oh Jesus Christ!

Congrats trolls!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are either atheist or agnostic, not both. If you waiver you are an agnostic, not atheist.

Sigh.

Again, nope. It has nothing to do with "wavering". It has to do with what you claim to know. "Gnostic" refers to knowledge, not belief.

Go back and read the thread, with particular attention to the cartoons, if you wish to understand what the vast majority of atheists believe.

Citation that the vast majority of atheists "believe" in these definitions?

My use of the word belief was WRT atheism and what it is.

I posted a video from the leading internet/TV show on atheism - the Atheist Experience -- to explain it. The video is from 2002, so any indication it is "new jargon" is fallacious.

Here's another citation from a group you've probably heard of, American Atheists:

https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/about-atheism/

Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods.
Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Older dictionaries define atheism as “a belief that there is no God.” Clearly, theistic influence taints these definitions. The fact that dictionaries define Atheism as “there is no God” betrays the (mono)theistic influence. Without the (mono)theistic influence, the definition would at least read “there are no gods.”

Enough for you?

Most atheists believe there is no God or they would be agnostic.

Anonymous wrote:OP, Reading the Bible Again for the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously but not Literally by Marcus Borg is an excellent study. I’ve done several sermon series on this book.

/minister

Thanks for the recommendation!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are either atheist or agnostic, not both. If you waiver you are an agnostic, not atheist.

Sigh.

Again, nope. It has nothing to do with "wavering". It has to do with what you claim to know. "Gnostic" refers to knowledge, not belief.

Go back and read the thread, with particular attention to the cartoons, if you wish to understand what the vast majority of atheists believe.

Citation that the vast majority of atheists "believe" in these definitions?

My use of the word belief was WRT atheism and what it is.

I posted a video from the leading internet/TV show on atheism - the Atheist Experience -- to explain it. The video is from 2002, so any indication it is "new jargon" is fallacious.

Here's another citation from a group you've probably heard of, American Atheists:

https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/about-atheism/

Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods.
Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Older dictionaries define atheism as “a belief that there is no God.” Clearly, theistic influence taints these definitions. The fact that dictionaries define Atheism as “there is no God” betrays the (mono)theistic influence. Without the (mono)theistic influence, the definition would at least read “there are no gods.”

Enough for you?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are either atheist or agnostic, not both. If you waiver you are an agnostic, not atheist.

Sigh.

Again, nope. It has nothing to do with "wavering". It has to do with what you claim to know. "Gnostic" refers to knowledge, not belief.

Go back and read the thread, with particular attention to the cartoons, if you wish to understand what the vast majority of atheists believe.

Citation that the vast majority of atheists "believe" in these definitions?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are either atheist or agnostic, not both. If you waiver you are an agnostic, not atheist.

Sigh.

Again, nope. It has nothing to do with "wavering". It has to do with what you claim to know. "Gnostic" refers to knowledge, not belief.

Go back and read the thread, with particular attention to the cartoons, if you wish to understand what the vast majority of atheists believe.

You cannot be both. You are either atheist or agnostic. I am an atheist. Gnositc has nothing to do with anything.

Thank you. The whole gnostic thing just muddies the waters. But underneath the cartoons, the distinction between 100% knowledge/certainty and 99% knowledge/certainty is still the fundamental point. And even the cartoon makes it clear you can’t be both.

Anonymous wrote:OP, Reading the Bible Again for the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously but not Literally by Marcus Borg is an excellent study. I’ve done several sermon series on this book.

/minister

I’ve read this book and agree it’s great.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are either atheist or agnostic, not both. If you waiver you are an agnostic, not atheist.

Sigh.

Again, nope. It has nothing to do with "wavering". It has to do with what you claim to know. "Gnostic" refers to knowledge, not belief.

Go back and read the thread, with particular attention to the cartoons, if you wish to understand what the vast majority of atheists believe.

DP. Pp is right, although wavering may not be the correct word. An agnostic doesn’t know if there’s a god or not. While an atheist knows for sure. So when pp says you can’t be both, she is correct because knowing/not knowing are mutually exclusive. You’re either at 100% knowledge or you’re not. That’s Dawkins’ whole point, too: his 0.1/7% of not knowing is what he says makes him agnostic not atheist. Even if he behaves AS IF he’s an atheist, that AS IF is quite different from “is in fact”, at least to English speakers.

Unfortunately your cartoons muddy this basic point with new jargon. To translate the cartoon, the gnostic atheists are the people who have 100% knowledge that there’s no god. The agnostic atheists are those who don’t have 100% knowledge there’s no god. So although the cartoons slap some new jargon on, they’re making the exact same key distinction.