Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even if a woman was inclined to do so, the best trade jobs are often controlled by guilds and unions, and it is a lot easier to "get in" as a man.

I agree with this. You can make a living wage by getting into a trade, which are dominated/controlled by men. I can think of no female equivalent jobs that provide the same salary and benefits that don’t require a degree.

Men don’t control the trades anymore. Women are free to become welders, electricians, sheet metal workers, plasterers, bricklayers, and the like.

Do a tiny bit of research before posting. Just a tiny bit.

“Women in construction make up 1.2 percent of all skilled workers. To break it down even further, here’s how women are represented in five popular skilled trades: welders, 4.8 percent; electricians, 2.4 percent; carpenters, 1.7 percent; plumbers, 1.6 percent; HVAC technicians, 1.2 percent.”

https://careerschoolnow.org/careers/women-in-skilled-trades#statistics-of-women-in-skilled-trade-jobs

Considering women in these trades is a pretty new development, it is safe to assume top management is still dominated/controlled by men.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[b]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because women have to have better qualifications to get a job. Men are still paid more than women.

But are qualifications the same as performance and skill? You can get every piece of paper and all the A's under the rainbow but if you can't perform, you're not getting promoted.

Until women started getting the qualifications (which are a proxy for having the performance and skill - that's how you get the qualifications), that was the excuse for them not getting the jobs and promotions. Now you have to come up with new reasons that it's not sexism; it's that women don't deserve it!

Studies also show that women continue to not be recognized for their performance and skill like men are.
So women have the credentials, they have the performance and the skill, and men are still over promoted in comparison.
It's sexism.

Getting an A because you diligently parroted the teacher's opinion isn't skill. There have been studies showing favoritism in grading toward girls and with affirmative action acceptances, that piece of paper loses it's worth as a proxy for skill.
Look at the gender ratio at all the academic STEM competitions which are objective measures of skill. Boys don't do as well in school but do much better at competitions with objective measures of ability.

Right. Qualifications were critical, until women start getting them in abundance. Then it's just "diligently parrot[ing] the teacher's opinion" and no longer relevant. Trust me, I'm a woman, I understand. This is exactly why girls and women are more successful than boys and men are these days. Because every time we achieve something, we're told it wasn't important anyway, and the goalposts are moved, and we have to continue striving in order to meet our goals. The boys just hear "nothing is important" and go back to their video games.

Fascinating that only those things that boys do better in are "objective" and the things that girls do better in just aren't important.
Girls have higher grades in high school and college. But I'm sure you'll say that's just sucking up to teachers.
Boys have higher SAT math scores. I'm sure you'll say that's objective.

Or maybe, girls just work harder, for longer, and boys coast on native ability and then don't know what do with themselves when faced with a challenge. And girls keep working. Because people like you dismiss every achievement. So keep at it. Girls will continue to succeed.

Newsflash. Pretty much everyone on this site is a woman, and many of us have had much different experiences than you have.

Newsflash. Research shows that women can be sexist. Living in an environment created by your oppressor shapes your brain.[b]

Studies show women and men judge women more harshly than they judge men.

https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2012/09/14/1211286109.full.pdf

"Faculty participants rated the male applicant as significantly more competent and hireable than the (identical) female applicant. These participants also selected a higher starting salary and offered more career mentoring to the male applicant. The gender of the faculty participants did not affect responses, such that female and male faculty were equally likely to exhibit bias against the female student."

So women, who don't feel oppressed by the patriarchy are just victims of brainwashing? Alrighty then.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women have to protect themselves.

Women are the ones who get pregnant, who have the children if they get pregnant and keep them. Men can rape, and not be held responsible for the outcome. Men can leave after consensual sex. Women are stuck. An education can help provide options.

Women are often at the financial and physical mercy of men, and education is one way to leverage some control over our lives.

Women are newly allowed into many colleges and fields. We're still in the "we have to work really hard for our success" phase. My mother wasn't allowed to take higher level math courses in high school, those were for boys. She had me in every advanced class I qualified for, and pushed me towards a rigorous college education. I was often the only or one of the only girls in my college math, science, and engineering courses. I am explicit with my daughter that she can do these things, and that being in the minority doesn't mean she's in the wrong place or not supposed to be there.

My grandmother stayed with my abusive, drunk, grandfather because she had no choice. My mother had slightly more choices, although she was a mother before she had credit of her own, and could open accounts without my father's name on them. I have a vast array of choices, my parents made sure I had my own finances (we're not wealthy, but my dad, having grown up in a household where his mother was stuck, understood what an emergency fund in his mother's name might have done for her), and my education has also made sure I had options.

My daughter will go to college and get an education because the world is not safe for women. Education is power.

Really my grandmother was in all the advanced math and science classes in her HS, and that was in the 40's.

That's fantastic! Unfortunately, that opportunity was not available to all women across the US. Not in the 40's, 50's, 60's...[b] In the 80's my parents had to argue to get me into the advanced math track. Even though my older brother was automatically put in the advanced math track and we had similar test scores and my grades were always better than his.

You're reading way too much into this. I was in HS in the 80's as well, and girls were not being kept out of the advanced math track. If your parents had to push to get you in, there was probably something else going on.

Anonymous wrote:Female privilege of course.

Notice there is no push to address the gender gap in areas where women dominate (teaching, nursing); and no push to address the gender gap in areas where men dominate but the job is seen as "dirty" (construction work, electrician) even though those jobs are high-paying.

There is only a push to address the gender gap in areas where women are behind, and they are seen as "nice" jobs -- STEM fields.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The most common jobs for women... teacher and nurse... require college.

The most common jobs for men do not.

And most of those jobs "stereotypically for men" will pay more than the jobs "stereotypically for women" that require a $$ degree.

What stereotypical female jobs require a $$$ degree?

School teacher.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The most common jobs for women... teacher and nurse... require college.

The most common jobs for men do not.

And most of those jobs "stereotypically for men" will pay more than the jobs "stereotypically for women" that require a $$ degree.

What stereotypical female jobs require a $$$ degree?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I posted on the other thread. Actual studies on this conclude the achievement gap across the education spectrum is due to women having better executive function skills and their pre-frontal cortex developing earlier.

Which leads to... failure to launch, video game addiction, substance abuse, etc. and just generally not having their shit together. In non-STEM fields there is now affirmative action for white men. They are getting in under lower standards to try to balance classes. And classes are still unbalanced. Look at the WM admissions numbers.

Teacher and mother of a teen boy here. Girls “do school” better than boys on average and it is due to their superior executive function skills. I am not as “smart” as my teen son but I did MUCH better in school. Why? His EF skills are years behind a girl’s at this point. I’m sure moms of both sexes can understand. My son and my make students have trouble remembering to hand in completed work. They do it and either don’t physically hand it in or forget to turn it in on Google Classroom. That negatively affects their grade. Girls are better at everything school related- doing the work, handing it in on time, class discussions, being on top of their assignments etc.

I just spent several minutes on google, and did not find any overwhelming evidence that girls develop executive functioning skills substantially (or at all) earlier than boys. I did find one interesting study out of Pakistan, where, as the researchers expected, they found boys had better executive functioning skills than girls, which in the discussion they attributed partly to the higher expectations on them.

But if you have research to share, that would be great.

Here are some data and references for you:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e5a7/c2f4219ddcec5e693d2d848f6330bad57d73.pdf

"Two-thirds of students identified with LD are male (66 percent) while overall public school enrollment is almost evenly split between males (51 percent) and females (49 percent). This overrepresentation of boys occurs across different racial and ethnic groups."

https://www.ncld.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/2014-State-of-LD.pdf

https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/learning-disabilities/help-information/learning-disability-statistics-/187687

https://www.understood.org/en/learning-attention-issues/getting-started/what-you-need-to-know/do-boys-have-learning-and-attention-issues-more-often-than-girls

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because women have to have better qualifications to get a job. Men are still paid more than women.

But are qualifications the same as performance and skill? You can get every piece of paper and all the A's under the rainbow but if you can't perform, you're not getting promoted.

No it's that men aren't pulling their weight in the household, so women lean out from work when they have kids. Plus, no maternity leave. That's why women aren't paid the same. They are forced to pull back.

Really? So the reason so many women choose to "lean out" from work is because their husbands are such lazy bums? It can't possibly be because their priorities shift once they have children?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even if a woman was inclined to do so, the best trade jobs are often controlled by guilds and unions, and it is a lot easier to "get in" as a man.

I agree with this. You can make a living wage by getting into a trade, which are dominated/controlled by men. I can think of no female equivalent jobs that provide the same salary and benefits that don’t require a degree.

Men don’t control the trades anymore. Women are free to become welders, electricians, sheet metal workers, plasterers, bricklayers, and the like.

Do a tiny bit of research before posting. Just a tiny bit.

“Women in construction make up 1.2 percent of all skilled workers. To break it down even further, here’s how women are represented in five popular skilled trades: welders, 4.8 percent; electricians, 2.4 percent; carpenters, 1.7 percent; plumbers, 1.6 percent; HVAC technicians, 1.2 percent.”

https://careerschoolnow.org/careers/women-in-skilled-trades#statistics-of-women-in-skilled-trade-jobs


But how many men who could go to a decent college become a construction worker . It’s a low pay, dangerous, physically demanding jobs. My friends husband dropped out of HS and worked construction while she was in grad school. All no Hs education, GED, recent immigrant folks without better options. Boys may want to be builders when they grow up. The ones who can hack college get engineering or business degrees and don’t stand out in the sun pounding nails. It’s fun for a day of Habitsnt for humanity in pretty weather. It’s a crappy low end career.
Considering women in these trades is a pretty new development, it is safe to assume top management is still dominated/controlled by men.

Oh let's get real here. How many women really want to become construction workers?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because women have to have better qualifications to get a job. Men are still paid more than women.

But are qualifications the same as performance and skill? You can get every piece of paper and all the A's under the rainbow but if you can't perform, you're not getting promoted.

No it's that men aren't pulling their weight in the household, so women lean out from work when they have kids. Plus, no maternity leave. That's why women aren't paid the same. They are forced to pull back.

Really? So the reason so many women choose to "lean out" from work is because their husbands are such lazy bums? It can't possibly be because their priorities shift once they have children?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I posted on the other thread. Actual studies on this conclude the achievement gap across the education spectrum is due to women having better executive function skills and their pre-frontal cortex developing earlier.

Which leads to... failure to launch, video game addiction, substance abuse, etc. and just generally not having their shit together. In non-STEM fields there is now affirmative action for white men. They are getting in under lower standards to try to balance classes. And classes are still unbalanced. Look at the WM admissions numbers.

Teacher and mother of a teen boy here. Girls “do school” better than boys on average and it is due to their superior executive function skills. I am not as “smart” as my teen son but I did MUCH better in school. Why? His EF skills are years behind a girl’s at this point. I’m sure moms of both sexes can understand. My son and my make students have trouble remembering to hand in completed work. They do it and either don’t physically hand it in or forget to turn it in on Google Classroom. That negatively affects their grade. Girls are better at everything school related- doing the work, handing it in on time, class discussions, being on top of their assignments etc.

I just spent several minutes on google, and did not find any overwhelming evidence that girls develop executive functioning skills substantially (or at all) earlier than boys. I did find one interesting study out of Pakistan, where, as the researchers expected, they found boys had better executive functioning skills than girls, which in the discussion they attributed partly to the higher expectations on them.

But if you have research to share, that would be great.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[b]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because women have to have better qualifications to get a job. Men are still paid more than women.

But are qualifications the same as performance and skill? You can get every piece of paper and all the A's under the rainbow but if you can't perform, you're not getting promoted.

Until women started getting the qualifications (which are a proxy for having the performance and skill - that's how you get the qualifications), that was the excuse for them not getting the jobs and promotions. Now you have to come up with new reasons that it's not sexism; it's that women don't deserve it!

Studies also show that women continue to not be recognized for their performance and skill like men are.
So women have the credentials, they have the performance and the skill, and men are still over promoted in comparison.
It's sexism.

Getting an A because you diligently parroted the teacher's opinion isn't skill. There have been studies showing favoritism in grading toward girls and with affirmative action acceptances, that piece of paper loses it's worth as a proxy for skill.
Look at the gender ratio at all the academic STEM competitions which are objective measures of skill. Boys don't do as well in school but do much better at competitions with objective measures of ability.

Right. Qualifications were critical, until women start getting them in abundance. Then it's just "diligently parrot[ing] the teacher's opinion" and no longer relevant. Trust me, I'm a woman, I understand. This is exactly why girls and women are more successful than boys and men are these days. Because every time we achieve something, we're told it wasn't important anyway, and the goalposts are moved, and we have to continue striving in order to meet our goals. The boys just hear "nothing is important" and go back to their video games.

Fascinating that only those things that boys do better in are "objective" and the things that girls do better in just aren't important.
Girls have higher grades in high school and college. But I'm sure you'll say that's just sucking up to teachers.
Boys have higher SAT math scores. I'm sure you'll say that's objective.

Or maybe, girls just work harder, for longer, and boys coast on native ability and then don't know what do with themselves when faced with a challenge. And girls keep working. Because people like you dismiss every achievement. So keep at it. Girls will continue to succeed.

Newsflash. Pretty much everyone on this site is a woman, and many of us have had much different experiences than you have.

Newsflash. Research shows that women can be sexist. Living in an environment created by your oppressor shapes your brain.[b]

Studies show women and men judge women more harshly than they judge men.

https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2012/09/14/1211286109.full.pdf

"Faculty participants rated the male applicant as significantly more competent and hireable than the (identical) female applicant. These participants also selected a higher starting salary and offered more career mentoring to the male applicant. The gender of the faculty participants did not affect responses, such that female and male faculty were equally likely to exhibit bias against the female student."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women have to protect themselves.

Women are the ones who get pregnant, who have the children if they get pregnant and keep them. Men can rape, and not be held responsible for the outcome. Men can leave after consensual sex. Women are stuck. An education can help provide options.

Women are often at the financial and physical mercy of men, and education is one way to leverage some control over our lives.

Women are newly allowed into many colleges and fields. We're still in the "we have to work really hard for our success" phase. My mother wasn't allowed to take higher level math courses in high school, those were for boys. She had me in every advanced class I qualified for, and pushed me towards a rigorous college education. I was often the only or one of the only girls in my college math, science, and engineering courses. I am explicit with my daughter that she can do these things, and that being in the minority doesn't mean she's in the wrong place or not supposed to be there.

My grandmother stayed with my abusive, drunk, grandfather because she had no choice. My mother had slightly more choices, although she was a mother before she had credit of her own, and could open accounts without my father's name on them. I have a vast array of choices, my parents made sure I had my own finances (we're not wealthy, but my dad, having grown up in a household where his mother was stuck, understood what an emergency fund in his mother's name might have done for her), and my education has also made sure I had options.

My daughter will go to college and get an education because the world is not safe for women. Education is power.

Really my grandmother was in all the advanced math and science classes in her HS, and that was in the 40's.

That's fantastic! Unfortunately, that opportunity was not available to all women across the US. Not in the 40's, 50's, 60's...[b] In the 80's my parents had to argue to get me into the advanced math track. Even though my older brother was automatically put in the advanced math track and we had similar test scores and my grades were always better than his.