Anonymous
Post 03/13/2019 13:35     Subject: Re:So if it can all be faked, how should college admissions work?
It can be all faked by the elite who can casually hand over millions of dollars.

If you are budgeting for application fees like most people then you are the majority who will be populating the colleges. My SIL is an editor who has been asked repeatedly for many years to "write" college essays as well as college papers. Obviously, she did not do that (now I am thinking she was a fool!), so this is not new.

I was casually told at a dinner party that it costs 25K to get your kids college admission essays written by professional writers and it seems all too common in Potomac. Oh well. That is not us!
Anonymous
Post 03/13/2019 13:31     Subject: So if it can all be faked, how should college admissions work?
Anonymous wrote:

yes, who cares? when an institution plays such a huge role in society it should be forced to play by the rules that are beneficial to it. of columbia pictures wanted to play porn in the movies the feds would be involved. except that this is many times more destructive.

no, it's not the indignity of UMD that is the problem - it's the rat race created by the possibility of joining the harvard country club through merit. this sets the crazy race that starts in K for kids to get one of those slots where they can "make connections" to join the rich on wall street. this is all the more destructive because the rate race is not based on actual merit but rather a nebulous combination of achievements that keeps the opportunity dangling.

my solution would be to strip the title "university" and "college and even "school" - and obviously all federal grants of any kind - from every college which bases admission on anything else but grades and entrance exams. not sats and similar crap should be allowed. then those country clubs can admit whom they want for the reason they want to create whatever member body they want.


It's only a rat race because you decided it is.

You haven't answered the question if private employers should be required to assign jobs by test scores.

Anonymous
Post 03/13/2019 13:28     Subject: So if it can all be faked, how should college admissions work?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:There is no "perfect" system, but there is one that is closest:

The one we have now. Where colleges get to choose whoever they want for whatever reason they want.

No one is ever kept out of college for any reason other than economics. There are more than enough good educations out there.

This false issue is only spouted by people who want to attend elite colleges but want to ignore the facts that make those colleges elite in the first place.

And we are not talking about the fraud that occurred, that is a separate issue and should be prosecuted.


what we have now is idiotic. colleges are kid of the country club and the IQ. these two things need to be separate. either the colleges convert to country clubs and drop all pretense of intellectualism or they drop that crap and admit the best prepared (through real entrance exams not the crap we have). this is mix is not working - it’s tremendous waste of resources for everyone.


It's not perfect but not idiotic. If there were a perfect system it would be used. Your concept of what is valuable to an institution may not be what theirs is. Difference is it is their institution. You don't have to like that but you also don't have to play. 95%+ of colleges let most kids in.

Do you think jobs should be given out that way also, strictly by an exam?

That's idiotic, IMHO.


nobody does it our way because it is stupid. smart people are trying to signal they are rich and mix with that crowd while duds have parents paying their way into schools so that they appear smarter than they are. it’s all a very elaborate signaling game that is incredibly costly for everyone while creating close to zero value as everyone already knows (or can easily ascertain) who is smart and who is rich and almost all real subject matter knowledge one can now gain through books and online for basically free.


Forgive me but this reads like word salad to me.

Anonymous wrote:
as for what the institutions themselves want - who cares? this is about our children and our country. these hedge funds with a side business in certificates are shaping the lives of children and parents in a very destructive way.


"Who cares"? Seriously? Well then who cares what management of Columbia Pictures wants, I want them to make me CEO. Such a silly statement. And for that matter, why should anyone care what you want?

And as for "shaping the lives of children and parents in a very destructive way"... how, exactly? By forcing upon them the indignity of going to UMD?


yes, who cares? when an institution plays such a huge role in society it should be forced to play by the rules that are beneficial to it. of columbia pictures wanted to play porn in the movies the feds would be involved. except that this is many times more destructive.

no, it's not the indignity of UMD that is the problem - it's the rat race created by the possibility of joining the harvard country club through merit. this sets the crazy race that starts in K for kids to get one of those slots where they can "make connections" to join the rich on wall street. this is all the more destructive because the rate race is not based on actual merit but rather a nebulous combination of achievements that keeps the opportunity dangling.

my solution would be to strip the title "university" and "college and even "school" - and obviously all federal grants of any kind - from every college which bases admission on anything else but grades and entrance exams. not sats and similar crap should be allowed. then those country clubs can admit whom they want for the reason they want to create whatever member body they want.


If they were to do this and disadvantage people of lesser means living in poor school districts then we would need more slots so the federal government should stop issuing all student visa's. No foreign student should be admitted to a US college ever again. Make them go to their own schools.
Anonymous
Post 03/13/2019 13:25     Subject: So if it can all be faked, how should college admissions work?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:There is no "perfect" system, but there is one that is closest:

The one we have now. Where colleges get to choose whoever they want for whatever reason they want.

No one is ever kept out of college for any reason other than economics. There are more than enough good educations out there.

This false issue is only spouted by people who want to attend elite colleges but want to ignore the facts that make those colleges elite in the first place.

And we are not talking about the fraud that occurred, that is a separate issue and should be prosecuted.


what we have now is idiotic. colleges are kid of the country club and the IQ. these two things need to be separate. either the colleges convert to country clubs and drop all pretense of intellectualism or they drop that crap and admit the best prepared (through real entrance exams not the crap we have). this is mix is not working - it’s tremendous waste of resources for everyone.


It's not perfect but not idiotic. If there were a perfect system it would be used. Your concept of what is valuable to an institution may not be what theirs is. Difference is it is their institution. You don't have to like that but you also don't have to play. 95%+ of colleges let most kids in.

Do you think jobs should be given out that way also, strictly by an exam?

That's idiotic, IMHO.


nobody does it our way because it is stupid. smart people are trying to signal they are rich and mix with that crowd while duds have parents paying their way into schools so that they appear smarter than they are. it’s all a very elaborate signaling game that is incredibly costly for everyone while creating close to zero value as everyone already knows (or can easily ascertain) who is smart and who is rich and almost all real subject matter knowledge one can now gain through books and online for basically free.


Forgive me but this reads like word salad to me.

Anonymous wrote:
as for what the institutions themselves want - who cares? this is about our children and our country. these hedge funds with a side business in certificates are shaping the lives of children and parents in a very destructive way.


"Who cares"? Seriously? Well then who cares what management of Columbia Pictures wants, I want them to make me CEO. Such a silly statement. And for that matter, why should anyone care what you want?

And as for "shaping the lives of children and parents in a very destructive way"... how, exactly? By forcing upon them the indignity of going to UMD?


yes, who cares? when an institution plays such a huge role in society it should be forced to play by the rules that are beneficial to it. of columbia pictures wanted to play porn in the movies the feds would be involved. except that this is many times more destructive.

no, it's not the indignity of UMD that is the problem - it's the rat race created by the possibility of joining the harvard country club through merit. this sets the crazy race that starts in K for kids to get one of those slots where they can "make connections" to join the rich on wall street. this is all the more destructive because the rate race is not based on actual merit but rather a nebulous combination of achievements that keeps the opportunity dangling.

my solution would be to strip the title "university" and "college and even "school" - and obviously all federal grants of any kind - from every college which bases admission on anything else but grades and entrance exams. not sats and similar crap should be allowed. then those country clubs can admit whom they want for the reason they want to create whatever member body they want.
Anonymous
Post 03/13/2019 13:07     Subject: So if it can all be faked, how should college admissions work?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:There is no "perfect" system, but there is one that is closest:

The one we have now. Where colleges get to choose whoever they want for whatever reason they want.

No one is ever kept out of college for any reason other than economics. There are more than enough good educations out there.

This false issue is only spouted by people who want to attend elite colleges but want to ignore the facts that make those colleges elite in the first place.

And we are not talking about the fraud that occurred, that is a separate issue and should be prosecuted.


what we have now is idiotic. colleges are kid of the country club and the IQ. these two things need to be separate. either the colleges convert to country clubs and drop all pretense of intellectualism or they drop that crap and admit the best prepared (through real entrance exams not the crap we have). this is mix is not working - it’s tremendous waste of resources for everyone.


It's not perfect but not idiotic. If there were a perfect system it would be used. Your concept of what is valuable to an institution may not be what theirs is. Difference is it is their institution. You don't have to like that but you also don't have to play. 95%+ of colleges let most kids in.

Do you think jobs should be given out that way also, strictly by an exam?

That's idiotic, IMHO.


nobody does it our way because it is stupid. smart people are trying to signal they are rich and mix with that crowd while duds have parents paying their way into schools so that they appear smarter than they are. it’s all a very elaborate signaling game that is incredibly costly for everyone while creating close to zero value as everyone already knows (or can easily ascertain) who is smart and who is rich and almost all real subject matter knowledge one can now gain through books and online for basically free.


Forgive me but this reads like word salad to me.

Anonymous wrote:
as for what the institutions themselves want - who cares? this is about our children and our country. these hedge funds with a side business in certificates are shaping the lives of children and parents in a very destructive way.


"Who cares"? Seriously? Well then who cares what management of Columbia Pictures wants, I want them to make me CEO. Such a silly statement. And for that matter, why should anyone care what you want?

And as for "shaping the lives of children and parents in a very destructive way"... how, exactly? By forcing upon them the indignity of going to UMD?
Anonymous
Post 03/13/2019 13:00     Subject: So if it can all be faked, how should college admissions work?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:There is no "perfect" system, but there is one that is closest:

The one we have now. Where colleges get to choose whoever they want for whatever reason they want.

No one is ever kept out of college for any reason other than economics. There are more than enough good educations out there.

This false issue is only spouted by people who want to attend elite colleges but want to ignore the facts that make those colleges elite in the first place.

And we are not talking about the fraud that occurred, that is a separate issue and should be prosecuted.


what we have now is idiotic. colleges are kid of the country club and the IQ. these two things need to be separate. either the colleges convert to country clubs and drop all pretense of intellectualism or they drop that crap and admit the best prepared (through real entrance exams not the crap we have). this is mix is not working - it’s tremendous waste of resources for everyone.


It's not perfect but not idiotic. If there were a perfect system it would be used. Your concept of what is valuable to an institution may not be what theirs is. Difference is it is their institution. You don't have to like that but you also don't have to play. 95%+ of colleges let most kids in.

Do you think jobs should be given out that way also, strictly by an exam?

That's idiotic, IMHO.


nobody does it our way because it is stupid. smart people are trying to signal they are rich and mix with that crowd while duds have parents paying their way into schools so that they appear smarter than they are. it’s all a very elaborate signaling game that is incredibly costly for everyone while creating close to zero value as everyone already knows (or can easily ascertain) who is smart and who is rich and almost all real subject matter knowledge one can now gain through books and online for basically free.

as for what the institutions themselves want - who cares? this is about our children and our country. these hedge funds with a side business in certificates are shaping the lives of children and parents in a very destructive way.
Anonymous
Post 03/13/2019 12:54     Subject: So if it can all be faked, how should college admissions work?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:There is no "perfect" system, but there is one that is closest:

The one we have now. Where colleges get to choose whoever they want for whatever reason they want.

No one is ever kept out of college for any reason other than economics. There are more than enough good educations out there.

This false issue is only spouted by people who want to attend elite colleges but want to ignore the facts that make those colleges elite in the first place.

And we are not talking about the fraud that occurred, that is a separate issue and should be prosecuted.


what we have now is idiotic. colleges are kid of the country club and the IQ. these two things need to be separate. either the colleges convert to country clubs and drop all pretense of intellectualism or they drop that crap and admit the best prepared (through real entrance exams not the crap we have). this is mix is not working - it’s tremendous waste of resources for everyone.


It's not perfect but not idiotic. If there were a perfect system it would be used. Your concept of what is valuable to an institution may not be what theirs is. Difference is it is their institution. You don't have to like that but you also don't have to play. 95%+ of colleges let most kids in.

Do you think jobs should be given out that way also, strictly by an exam?

That's idiotic, IMHO.
Anonymous
Post 03/13/2019 12:52     Subject: Re:So if it can all be faked, how should college admissions work?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:How has it become so difficult to get into selective schools in the last 25 years? I'm not talking about Yale and Harvard but places like UVA. According to my school most students need a 1440 SAT to get in. Did kids need that kind of score years ago?


In 1985 there were 11 million kids in college.
In 2017 there are 19 million kids in college.

In 1985 there were 10,800 kids at Yale for example.
In 2000 there were 11,000 kids at Yale.
In 2017 there are 12,000 kids at Yale.



those extra 8 million are bottom feeders - they are not going to yale.
Anonymous
Post 03/13/2019 12:41     Subject: So if it can all be faked, how should college admissions work?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:There is no "perfect" system, but there is one that is closest:

The one we have now. Where colleges get to choose whoever they want for whatever reason they want.

No one is ever kept out of college for any reason other than economics. There are more than enough good educations out there.

This false issue is only spouted by people who want to attend elite colleges but want to ignore the facts that make those colleges elite in the first place.

And we are not talking about the fraud that occurred, that is a separate issue and should be prosecuted.


what we have now is idiotic. colleges are kid of the country club and the IQ. these two things need to be separate. either the colleges convert to country clubs and drop all pretense of intellectualism or they drop that crap and admit the best prepared (through real entrance exams not the crap we have). this is mix is not working - it’s tremendous waste of resources for everyone.


I agree. Let's remember that within this whole discussion we are talking about institutions whose tuition is often higher than the median household income in the US. The resources are insane.
Anonymous
Post 03/13/2019 12:37     Subject: So if it can all be faked, how should college admissions work?
I think there has to be other pathways for success. No need for amassing degrees that you will not use. College education should be for specific career paths and teaching should be amongst the highest paid profession and should take the academically strongest students.
Anonymous
Post 03/13/2019 12:37     Subject: Re:So if it can all be faked, how should college admissions work?
Anonymous wrote:How has it become so difficult to get into selective schools in the last 25 years? I'm not talking about Yale and Harvard but places like UVA. According to my school most students need a 1440 SAT to get in. Did kids need that kind of score years ago?


In 1985 there were 11 million kids in college.
In 2017 there are 19 million kids in college.

In 1985 there were 10,800 kids at Yale for example.
In 2000 there were 11,000 kids at Yale.
In 2017 there are 12,000 kids at Yale.

Anonymous
Post 03/13/2019 12:28     Subject: So if it can all be faked, how should college admissions work?
Anonymous wrote:There is no "perfect" system, but there is one that is closest:

The one we have now. Where colleges get to choose whoever they want for whatever reason they want.

No one is ever kept out of college for any reason other than economics. There are more than enough good educations out there.

This false issue is only spouted by people who want to attend elite colleges but want to ignore the facts that make those colleges elite in the first place.

And we are not talking about the fraud that occurred, that is a separate issue and should be prosecuted.


what we have now is idiotic. colleges are kid of the country club and the IQ. these two things need to be separate. either the colleges convert to country clubs and drop all pretense of intellectualism or they drop that crap and admit the best prepared (through real entrance exams not the crap we have). this is mix is not working - it’s tremendous waste of resources for everyone.
Anonymous
Post 03/13/2019 12:27     Subject: So if it can all be faked, how should college admissions work?
Anonymous wrote:Lottery--seriously. A certain percentage of the incoming class is offered admission by lottery.


I've long thought that was a good idea.
Have the admissions personnel evaluate each candidate as "yes, maybe, and no" If there are more yes kids than they have space for (which there certainly will be) then do a lottery. You could even do sub-lotteries to get geographic, racial, etc diversity if wanted, or maybe only lottery 75% of the class so that 25% is available for special interests (ie, large donors) and balancing demographics.
Anonymous
Post 03/13/2019 12:25     Subject: So if it can all be faked, how should college admissions work?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:1. Increase the security around proctors and test sites for SAT and ACT. I think over the years people have been complaining about it getting too strict or creating too many "barriers" but I think this scandal should shut that down.

2. Increase the scrutiny around getting extended time waivers on testing. If I were a parent of a child that actually needed this accommodation, I would be LIVID that people have been using this, and thereby making it that much more difficult for my child to be given appropriate accommodations. If a person is going to be granted this, they have to have an already demonstrated record of a 504, IEP, etc. that can't suddenly develop this need in their Junior year, unless it can be clearly documented why the new need. (I think in another thread someone mentioned a child receiving a concussion, and I could see that being a reason for a new need for accommodation. Even with those accommodations, see my first point--the sites where these test are done and the proctors doing them must be held to a highly secure standard.

3. For the coaching/recruit side of this. It must be a required part of the work of coaches that they:
a. Are responsible for demonstrating they have confirmed the validity of the student athlete they are designating as a recruit. This is super easy to do. Verifiable scores/rankings, etc. can be obtained from independent sources.
b. They must submit reports each year documenting the participation of students that they identified as recruits in previous years. We all know that sometimes there are instances that a student might be recruited but ultimately not play, but there needs to be transparency about it. If student didn't participate for legitimate reasons, there's no reason to hide that information.

4. I think this one might be harder, but...
I would like to see legislation that puts some kind of prohibition against colleges or universities accepting donations from anyone with a child ages 12-20. Like I said, probably really hard to make illegal, so instead perhaps it's about reporting, transparency, spotlight, shaming.
-Make donation information easy to access and reported annually in a consistent format across all institutions (similar to the Common Data Set.)
-Require reporting that shows the names of currently enrolled students who's families have made donations to the schools.
Hopefully, this will discourage schools from accepting these "pay-for-play" students because it will be damaging to their reputation.

Anyway, that's a start....


I'm sorry but eliminate accomodations. If you think that is needed let everyone take as long as they want...[/quote]

+1

Fairness across the board.


So, no accommodations. No braille for blind students, no audio tools for dyslexic students, and no scribes for people who have no hands to write with?
Anonymous
Post 03/13/2019 12:20     Subject: So if it can all be faked, how should college admissions work?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Here’s a better system:

Take sports out of the admissions process. All the college teams can become clubs (much like the European soccer clubs) that are affiliated with the university. Athletes can be paid and they get to take classes part time at the college.

In addition to removing sports from the college application, remove extracurriculars as well. Admission should be granted based upon SAT scores, GPA and AP exam grades. College as an academic experience should be based on academic performance. All students should be given AP tests for free - much like the English A-level exams. I understand that whatever system exists will be games but grades from 3 separate unconnected institutions (SAT, GPA, AP) seems like the best approach. Things like “fit” and extracurriculars make it way too easy for the wealthy to game the system.


David Leonhardt, NYT editorial board member, makes the same argument in his newsletter today, with a study to back it up.

The admissions scandal

Getting a peek inside the college-admissions process isn’t easy. But a team of academic researchers managed to do so several years ago. It helped, no doubt, that two of the researchers were former college presidents — William Bowen of Princeton and Eugene Tobin of Hamilton.

The researchers were given access to anonymous admissions records at 19 elite colleges and then analyzed how admissions offices treated different groups of students. Low-income students, for example, were no more likely to be admitted than otherwise similar students with virtually identical academic records. So-called legacy students — those whose parents attended the same schools — received substantial boosts. So did underrepresented minorities.

But the biggest boost went to recruited athletes: An athlete was about 30 percentage points more likely to be admitted than a nonathlete with the same academic record.

I thought of that study yesterday after the Justice Department announced it had indicted 50 people for trying to rig the admissions process. The alleged scam involved payments funneled from parents to college coaches, who in return would falsely identify applicants as athletic recruits to the admissions office. Just like that, the students then become virtual shoo-ins for acceptance.

If the accusations are true, they’re outrageous. But they also highlight a larger problem in the admissions process that has somehow become acceptable: A scam like this could exist only because competitive sports occupy a ridiculously large place in that process.

The situation is different for other extracurricular activities. Great musicians are more likely to be admitted to a college than similar students who don’t play an instrument — as is only fair, because musicians deserve credit for their accomplishments. But the musicians don’t generally receive a 30-percentage-point boost on their admissions chances. Stage managers for the high school theater don’t, either. Nor do student body presidents, debaters, yearbook editors or robotics competitors.

Athletes do. Their extracurricular activities are not treated merely as an important part of a college application but as a defining part. “Athletic recruiting is the biggest form of affirmative action in American higher education, even at schools such as ours,” as Philip Smith, a former dean of admissions at Williams College, has said. It’s a relic of the supposedly character-defining role that sports played in elite colleges a century ago.
And sports have retained their unique place in the admissions process even though most teams at elite colleges are not good enough to compete for national championships. To put it another way, the student athletes being recruited to these colleges are not among the very best in the country at what they do. They are extremely good, yes, and they work hard, yes — but that also tends to be true of high school musicians, student government leaders and so on.

I’m a sports fan and long-ago high school athlete. I have a lot of admiration for students who are talented enough and work hard enough to play sports in college. But they are not a different species. It’s time to end the extreme special treatment that colleges give to so many of them. College sports can still exist without it.


That will never happen. Star college athletes and bring more money into colleges than anyone else. Pro athletes get endorsements that pay them money. In college, the athlete gets nothing and the college gets millions.
https://www.salon.com/2013/09/24/the_shocking_college_athlete_rip_off_now_theyre_fighting_back/

Part of the problem with straight scores or whatever is that it unfairly gives wealthy people an advantage. I'm not even talking about race here. Some of my family lives in a county in the Appalachian Mountains that has one high school for the entire county. Some kids take a 2hr bus ride each way. They don't have all the same AP classes you would get around here and almost no one is wealthy enough to hire a tutor (if you could even find one). SAT prep isn't a thing there. They really just don't have the same quality of education. So if you based all admission on simply SAT score for example, these people would never get into college. One thing many college's do though, is that they try to admit people from different states, regions, and with different backgrounds. That's something that helps people in this situation.


Then hire star athletes to play the big sports on behalf of the team and pay them a wage commensurate with the value they are bringing to the university. If those athletes want to attend classes too, make it a benefit of their job, like the health insurance they would be entitled to.

But the Stanford sailing team, and the USC rowing team, and the Georgetown tennis team abringingbringin ANY money into college.