Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DH here: I thought it was lame, insulting, and will backfire. Whatever market research says about who does the shopping, I find it very hard to believe men don’t have or express preferences about shaving items, which are reasonably personal, and I suspect this is going to hurt Gillette more than it helps. Woke Capital is tiresome and is due a comeuppance. We shall see, the reaction will be interesting.

What about it did you find insulting? Genuinely? To me it seemed very pro man, just pro good man.

How would you react to an ad for a product predominantly used by females with base line message that women have to break the toxic feminist culture and become good women? It just shows how poorly all men are thought of by our society. The baseline being men are bad because they are men.

I actually like that it addressed the issue while still selling a very positive view of masculinity. Interesting that we viewed it so differently. I think fighting toxic masculinity needs a big branding makeover. It's important but we can't kill a generation of men's self esteem to get there or we'll have a bunch of creepy MRA losers.

When you label advocates for men's rights as "creepy", you're perpetuating the very problem you say you want to cure.

Just sayin'

Do you believe the population who currently identifies as 'men's rights advocates' are men you want to have your sons model their behavior on? There are absolutely types of feminists that I don't want my daughter to emulate. The current crop of 'men's rights advocates' focus on where men are held back, they do not teach how to be good men. They teach that women have stolen things from them and that they are entitled to sex from women. That movement is, in fact, creepy.

If you want men's rights advocacy to look more like teaching men how to be good, strong, respectful but still masculine then you have a LONGGGGGG way to go.

I'm not sure.

The only thing I ever hear about Mens Right Advocacy is from a very few angry sounding women who are constatnly harping about it. Beyond that, I know literally nothing about it. But I'm certainly not going to form an opinion of it based on what you alone say, because frankly, you sound a little crazy and angry.

It seems like there are one or to posters who are obsessed with calling out or identifying "MRA" language or postings, or attitudes.

It's weird. Very stalker-ish.

Anonymous wrote:
But here's the thing. Toxic feminism, as it exists, is tiny and basically no one agrees with them. But the problems with masculinity are widespread. White males accounted for 7 of 10 suicides in 2017! Men are like 3 times more likely to kill themselves as women. And this isn't just because of women. It isn't seen as 'manly' to talk about your feelings. It isn't seen as 'manly' to be depressed. We need to create a change in masculinity where it is alright to feel. It doesn't make you a woman. Men need to find a way forward where they can be emotional, and where they can be masculine. I think this is the core problem across the board. All of this pent up stuff and they solve it with violence, towards themselves or others. That is a lesson taught from generation to generation and we need to stop it. To me that is a pro man sentiment. The anti man sentiment is to let things continue as they are and let men suffer in silence.

The boys are not alright!

Anonymous wrote:

The concept of men having taken jobs that women should have is just about share in the marketplace. If there are no women working in STEM it is highly unlikely that the reason is that women are bad at STEM. Much more likely that there is a culture in STEM that turns women off and causes them to choose other paths.

No. Much more likely women are just less interested in STEM than men.

So do I think more women should be in STEM? Yes.

No. Women should do whatever they are interested in doing.

I think there should be more equal representation in the field and that employers should be working for that.

No. Let people do what they want, and let the chips fall where they may. Trying to force people into fields that don't interest them is never going to work.

We need to create a change in masculinity where it is alright to feel.

No. Get lost. You wouldn't let some man tell you how to be a proper woman, you have no business telling men how to be proper men.

I like how you keep deleting parts of my posts and our chains to make it seem like I'm saying something other than what I'm saying. This is what an MRA guy looks like PP.

The concept of men having taken jobs that women should have is just about share in the marketplace. If there are no women working in STEM it is highly unlikely that the reason is that women are bad at STEM. Much more likely that there is a culture in STEM that turns women off and causes them to choose other paths.

No. Much more likely women are just less interested in STEM than men.

So do I think more women should be in STEM? Yes.

No. Women should do whatever they are interested in doing.

I think there should be more equal representation in the field and that employers should be working for that.

No. Let people do what they want, and let the chips fall where they may. Trying to force people into fields that don't interest them is never going to work.

We need to create a change in masculinity where it is alright to feel.

No. Get lost. You wouldn't let some man tell you how to be a proper woman, you have no business telling men how to be proper men.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DH here: I thought it was lame, insulting, and will backfire. Whatever market research says about who does the shopping, I find it very hard to believe men don’t have or express preferences about shaving items, which are reasonably personal, and I suspect this is going to hurt Gillette more than it helps. Woke Capital is tiresome and is due a comeuppance. We shall see, the reaction will be interesting.

What about it did you find insulting? Genuinely? To me it seemed very pro man, just pro good man.

How would you react to an ad for a product predominantly used by females with base line message that women have to break the toxic feminist culture and become good women? It just shows how poorly all men are thought of by our society. The baseline being men are bad because they are men.

I actually like that it addressed the issue while still selling a very positive view of masculinity. Interesting that we viewed it so differently. I think fighting toxic masculinity needs a big branding makeover. It's important but we can't kill a generation of men's self esteem to get there or we'll have a bunch of creepy MRA losers.

When you label advocates for men's rights as "creepy", you're perpetuating the very problem you say you want to cure.

Just sayin'

Do you believe the population who currently identifies as 'men's rights advocates' are men you want to have your sons model their behavior on? There are absolutely types of feminists that I don't want my daughter to emulate. The current crop of 'men's rights advocates' focus on where men are held back, they do not teach how to be good men. They teach that women have stolen things from them and that they are entitled to sex from women. That movement is, in fact, creepy.
.
If you want men's rights advocacy to look more like teaching men how to be good, strong, respectful but still masculine then you have a LONGGGGGG way to go.

I have never heard that being expressed anywhere. Can you provide some links? It seems from your post that this is a widely held believe. I will say some feminists do believe men have taken jobs that women should have ....you know the patriarchy. So maybe it’s a similar mentality? It seems you believe in toxic masculinity? Do you believe there is a toxic femininity or whatever one would call it?

Really I do not care about a commercial trying to market a brand off the current zeitgeist of the Trump presidency and the metoo movement. It’s cheap and easy. Maybe they should give a percentage of profits to women’s interest group or to a feminist studies department at a university? How about hiring a women CEO or balance the gender on their board of directors? I guess those things will not sell razors?

I didn't respond to your first paragraph. I do believe there is a small contingent of feminists that are 'militant' and think men should be punished for past ill deeds. I don't agree with them.

The concept of men having taken jobs that women should have is just about share in the marketplace. If there are no women working in STEM it is highly unlikely that the reason is that women are bad at STEM. Much more likely that there is a culture in STEM that turns women off and causes them to choose other paths. Something backed up by the women who forged ahead into STEM careers. So do I think more women should be in STEM? Yes. I don't think there are specific jobs men have 'stolen' but I think there should be more equal representation in the field and that employers should be working for that. Because the reality is that in most things you are serving both men and women so both should be represented in the creation/care for/whatever.

But here's the thing. Toxic feminism, as it exists, is tiny and basically no one agrees with them. But the problems with masculinity are widespread. White males accounted for 7 of 10 suicides in 2017! Men are like 3 times more likely to kill themselves as women. And this isn't just because of women. It isn't seen as 'manly' to talk about your feelings. It isn't seen as 'manly' to be depressed. We need to create a change in masculinity where it is alright to feel. It doesn't make you a woman. Men need to find a way forward where they can be emotional, and where they can be masculine. I think this is the core problem across the board. All of this pent up stuff and they solve it with violence, towards themselves or others. That is a lesson taught from generation to generation and we need to stop it. To me that is a pro man sentiment. The anti man sentiment is to let things continue as they are and let men suffer in silence.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DH here: I thought it was lame, insulting, and will backfire. Whatever market research says about who does the shopping, I find it very hard to believe men don’t have or express preferences about shaving items, which are reasonably personal, and I suspect this is going to hurt Gillette more than it helps. Woke Capital is tiresome and is due a comeuppance. We shall see, the reaction will be interesting.

What about it did you find insulting? Genuinely? To me it seemed very pro man, just pro good man.

How would you react to an ad for a product predominantly used by females with base line message that women have to break the toxic feminist culture and become good women? It just shows how poorly all men are thought of by our society. The baseline being men are bad because they are men.

I actually like that it addressed the issue while still selling a very positive view of masculinity. Interesting that we viewed it so differently. I think fighting toxic masculinity needs a big branding makeover. It's important but we can't kill a generation of men's self esteem to get there or we'll have a bunch of creepy MRA losers.

When you label advocates for men's rights as "creepy", you're perpetuating the very problem you say you want to cure.

Just sayin'

Do you believe the population who currently identifies as 'men's rights advocates' are men you want to have your sons model their behavior on? There are absolutely types of feminists that I don't want my daughter to emulate. The current crop of 'men's rights advocates' focus on where men are held back, they do not teach how to be good men. They teach that women have stolen things from them and that they are entitled to sex from women. That movement is, in fact, creepy.
.
If you want men's rights advocacy to look more like teaching men how to be good, strong, respectful but still masculine then you have a LONGGGGGG way to go.

I have never heard that being expressed anywhere. Can you provide some links? It seems from your post that this is a widely held believe. I will say some feminists do believe men have taken jobs that women should have ....you know the patriarchy. So maybe it’s a similar mentality? It seems you believe in toxic masculinity? Do you believe there is a toxic femininity or whatever one would call it?

Really I do not care about a commercial trying to market a brand off the current zeitgeist of the Trump presidency and the metoo movement. It’s cheap and easy. Maybe they should give a percentage of profits to women’s interest group or to a feminist studies department at a university? How about hiring a women CEO or balance the gender on their board of directors? I guess those things will not sell razors?

I'm a woman but I don't undestand why everyone is bringing up how they need to involve women. I think women need to be LESS involved in this. Women championed feminism. We struck our own path forward towards an equal and happy coexistence. Men need to do that for themselves. They will not come out feeling empowered or masculine if women dictate the path forward.

As for MRAs being creepy losers:
https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/reddit-red-pill/
https://www.reddit.com/r/asktrp/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Peterson#Gender_relations_and_masculinity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_rights_movement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel

I think it is a pity that the MRA movement is largely associated with entitled incels.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DH here: I thought it was lame, insulting, and will backfire. Whatever market research says about who does the shopping, I find it very hard to believe men don’t have or express preferences about shaving items, which are reasonably personal, and I suspect this is going to hurt Gillette more than it helps. Woke Capital is tiresome and is due a comeuppance. We shall see, the reaction will be interesting.

What about it did you find insulting? Genuinely? To me it seemed very pro man, just pro good man.

How would you react to an ad for a product predominantly used by females with base line message that women have to break the toxic feminist culture and become good women? It just shows how poorly all men are thought of by our society. The baseline being men are bad because they are men.

I actually like that it addressed the issue while still selling a very positive view of masculinity. Interesting that we viewed it so differently. I think fighting toxic masculinity needs a big branding makeover. It's important but we can't kill a generation of men's self esteem to get there or we'll have a bunch of creepy MRA losers.

When you label advocates for men's rights as "creepy", you're perpetuating the very problem you say you want to cure.

Just sayin'

Do you believe the population who currently identifies as 'men's rights advocates' are men you want to have your sons model their behavior on? There are absolutely types of feminists that I don't want my daughter to emulate. The current crop of 'men's rights advocates' focus on where men are held back, they do not teach how to be good men. They teach that women have stolen things from them and that they are entitled to sex from women. That movement is, in fact, creepy.
.
If you want men's rights advocacy to look more like teaching men how to be good, strong, respectful but still masculine then you have a LONGGGGGG way to go.

I have never heard that being expressed anywhere. Can you provide some links? It seems from your post that this is a widely held believe. I will say some feminists do believe men have taken jobs that women should have ....you know the patriarchy. So maybe it’s a similar mentality? It seems you believe in toxic masculinity? Do you believe there is a toxic femininity or whatever one would call it?

Really I do not care about a commercial trying to market a brand off the current zeitgeist of the Trump presidency and the metoo movement. It’s cheap and easy. Maybe they should give a percentage of profits to women’s interest group or to a feminist studies department at a university? How about hiring a women CEO or balance the gender on their board of directors? I guess those things will not sell razors?

DP. You are lucky that you are unfamiliar with the MRA movement. Ignorance is bliss.

Anonymous wrote:

PP you keep talking about the commercial and that is fair but do you not see the core problem that this commercial is tackling? I think, for example, that radical muslims absolutely are facing negativity because they have been violent and have hurt people. In the same vein, men are responsible for mass shootings, responsible for assault and harassment of women. Not all men of course, but this is a problem in how we are raising boys. A problem we need to tackle as a society. Maybe Gillette isn't getting 100% right but I think they're getting closer to it then we have gotten so far.

No, no, no.

Muslims have not been violent and hurt people. Some particular Muslims have, and only they are responsible for their misdeeds, not the group as a whole.

"Men" are not responsible for mass shootings and assault and harassment of men. Only a tiny minority of particular men. This is not a problem in "how we are raising boys" because nobody is raising their son to be a violent criminal.

The me too movement absolutely is showing that there is a problem in how we are raising boys. I was not saying that all muslims are terrorists I am simply saying that in the post you erased to respond to me you postulated that someone could talk this way about Muslims and be excoriated, but the reality is that because international terrorism is predominately committed by radical Muslims, they have faced a bit of a reckoning for the way they treat women in that culture and the way extreme Muslims have strong xenophobic tendencies. Because there are crazy radicals in every group but if they crazy radicals in YOUR group start going bananas, it probably points to a need to do some self examination. Muslim culture has been doing a lot of growing/evolving/examining in light of the terrorist problem.

Men need to do some growing/evolving/examining in light of systemic problems like absentee fathers and endemic sexual harassment. Of depression and suicide being much larger problems for men because it isn't considered 'acceptable' for men to be emotional and to show their feelings. This isn't an anti man sentiment. On the contrary it is a pro man pro masculinity sentiment. A path forward where men can absolutely BE MEN, be strong capable masculine men, but they can be that way without hurting themselves, other men or women.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you believe the population who currently identifies as 'men's rights advocates' are men you want to have your sons model their behavior on? There are absolutely types of feminists that I don't want my daughter to emulate. The current crop of 'men's rights advocates' focus on where men are held back, they do not teach how to be good men. They teach that women have stolen things from them and that they are entitled to sex from women. That movement is, in fact, creepy.

If some man tried to mansplain to women what the proper focus for "women's rights advocates" was, women would tell him to shut up and go away.

Women, you don't get to womansplain to men what men's rights advocates should advocate.

Men's rights advocates advocate for a view of masculinity that injures women. Maybe you don't say 'hit them' but women are talked about like objects. I will not be teaching my son, and I would not support DH teaching our son, about a mode of thought that talks about women like objects.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DH here: I thought it was lame, insulting, and will backfire. Whatever market research says about who does the shopping, I find it very hard to believe men don’t have or express preferences about shaving items, which are reasonably personal, and I suspect this is going to hurt Gillette more than it helps. Woke Capital is tiresome and is due a comeuppance. We shall see, the reaction will be interesting.

What about it did you find insulting? Genuinely? To me it seemed very pro man, just pro good man.

How would you react to an ad for a product predominantly used by females with base line message that women have to break the toxic feminist culture and become good women? It just shows how poorly all men are thought of by our society. The baseline being men are bad because they are men.

I actually like that it addressed the issue while still selling a very positive view of masculinity. Interesting that we viewed it so differently. I think fighting toxic masculinity needs a big branding makeover. It's important but we can't kill a generation of men's self esteem to get there or we'll have a bunch of creepy MRA losers.

When you label advocates for men's rights as "creepy", you're perpetuating the very problem you say you want to cure.

Just sayin'

Do you believe the population who currently identifies as 'men's rights advocates' are men you want to have your sons model their behavior on? There are absolutely types of feminists that I don't want my daughter to emulate. The current crop of 'men's rights advocates' focus on where men are held back, they do not teach how to be good men. They teach that women have stolen things from them and that they are entitled to sex from women. That movement is, in fact, creepy.
.
If you want men's rights advocacy to look more like teaching men how to be good, strong, respectful but still masculine then you have a LONGGGGGG way to go.

I have never heard that being expressed anywhere. Can you provide some links? It seems from your post that this is a widely held believe. I will say some feminists do believe men have taken jobs that women should have ....you know the patriarchy. So maybe it’s a similar mentality? It seems you believe in toxic masculinity? Do you believe there is a toxic femininity or whatever one would call it?

Really I do not care about a commercial trying to market a brand off the current zeitgeist of the Trump presidency and the metoo movement. It’s cheap and easy. Maybe they should give a percentage of profits to women’s interest group or to a feminist studies department at a university? How about hiring a women CEO or balance the gender on their board of directors? I guess those things will not sell razors?

PP you keep talking about the commercial and that is fair but do you not see the core problem that this commercial is tackling? I think, for example, that radical muslims absolutely are facing negativity because they have been violent and have hurt people. In the same vein, men are responsible for mass shootings, responsible for assault and harassment of women. Not all men of course, but this is a problem in how we are raising boys. A problem we need to tackle as a society. Maybe Gillette isn't getting 100% right but I think they're getting closer to it then we have gotten so far.

No, no, no.

Muslims have not been violent and hurt people. Some particular Muslims have, and only they are responsible for their misdeeds, not the group as a whole.

"Men" are not responsible for mass shootings and assault and harassment of men. Only a tiny minority of particular men. This is not a problem in "how we are raising boys" because nobody is raising their son to be a violent criminal.

Anonymous wrote:Do you believe the population who currently identifies as 'men's rights advocates' are men you want to have your sons model their behavior on? There are absolutely types of feminists that I don't want my daughter to emulate. The current crop of 'men's rights advocates' focus on where men are held back, they do not teach how to be good men. They teach that women have stolen things from them and that they are entitled to sex from women. That movement is, in fact, creepy.

If some man tried to mansplain to women what the proper focus for "women's rights advocates" was, women would tell him to shut up and go away.

Women, you don't get to womansplain to men what men's rights advocates should advocate.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DH here: I thought it was lame, insulting, and will backfire. Whatever market research says about who does the shopping, I find it very hard to believe men don’t have or express preferences about shaving items, which are reasonably personal, and I suspect this is going to hurt Gillette more than it helps. Woke Capital is tiresome and is due a comeuppance. We shall see, the reaction will be interesting.

What about it did you find insulting? Genuinely? To me it seemed very pro man, just pro good man.

Replace “man” in your comment with any other group of people and see how it sounds to your ear.

NP. Feminist isn't a compliment. Neither is toxic masculinity. "The best a man can get" isn't an insult.

“Hey, men, it’s important you are one of the good ones, not one of the bad ones, and you need reminding of this....”

“Hey, African Americans.....”

“Hey, Jews.....”

“Hey Muslims.......”

If you can’t hear the implicit negativity, that’s fine, we just interpret the commercial differently. No surprise. But my point is that there are lots of men who do, even some of the good ones. They will be less likely to buy Gillette. Will they make it up from somewhere else? Maybe.

I didn't think the ad was insulting, neither did DH who showed it to me.