Anonymous
07/03/2018 16:06
Subject: Can I name my Jewish daughter Mary?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:What's with the Simon ben Kosevah business?
To summarize:
P1: Jews don't name kids Mary because of Pogroms!
P2: That's absurd! ** (becomes even more absurd)
Many Jews don't name their children Mary or Jesus because they are classically Christian names. One explanation for this is that naming is a key kind of assimilation. Anything that suggests such assimilation is fraught, given the long history of Jews being forced to assimilate to Christianity. I don't see a single absurd thing about that reasoning. Certainly you could disagree and say the apparent assimilation means nothing to you. But the reasoning about why SOME Jews would bristle at it makes perfect sense.
Anonymous
07/03/2018 15:58
Subject: Can I name my Jewish daughter Mary?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP, you can obviously do what you want.
Non-Jews won't even notice, but a lot of Jews will think it's weird (like this one writing this post). Other Jews won't notice, either.
I think some of us Jews find using generally religious Christian names to feel a little too much like what happens in times and places when Jews are trying a little too hard to pass as Christian, or when it has been dangerous to be easily identified as Jewish. Obviously, that's not the case now, but that, and a history of Jewish persecution by Christians is why people don't see them as "just" a name. Not to mention that plenty of Christians choose "Mary" because it's religious, not just cultural.
Obviously, those situations are not the case right now, but that's behind the weirdness.
"... by Christians ...". This same "logic" leads some fundamentalist churches to blame "the Jews" for the crucifixion of Jesus. Just no.
Um ... the Inquisition? Pogroms? Holocaust? Christians have a documented history of persecuting Jews.
The point is that by saying someone should not name her Jewish daughter Mary because the Inquisition, Pogroms and the Holocaust were undertaken "by Christians" is to blame "Christians" as a whole for the Inquisition, Pogroms and the Holocaust. I would have no problem naming my child Joshua, notwithstanding the actions of Dh? Nuw?s and Simon Bar Kosevah. In this country we don't recognize corruption by blood.
Oh please. That PP referenced "the history of Jewish persecutions by Christians." Which is historically accurate, and which (in part) explains why some Jewish people get uncomfortably with some acts of assimilation, like celebrating Christmas and naming their children names that have strong Christian religions connotations. Nobody said it was "corruption by blood." You're being completely absurd and I wonder what your agenda is.
Agenda? None, other than pointing out that group blame (whatever group that may be) for the acts of others of the same group is wrong and leads quickly to things like racism, nationalism, sexism, anti-semitism, anti-Catholicism, sectarianism, and about 20 other -isms that many of us are working hard to eradicate in society. Its people like you who would blame "the Muslims" for 9-11. Its divisive, wrong and, well, completely absurd. My referring to someone like Simon ben Kosevah, who died almost two millennia ago fighting the Roman Empire, was meant to show you how ridiculous group blame is.
You got "group blame" out of a statement of historical fact: Jews have historically been persecuted by Christians on the basis of religion, including forced assimilation, and therefore, SOME Jews may shy away from naming their children traditionally religious Christian names. From this you get that we're blaming all Christians for the Inquisition? Ok. Whatever.
Anonymous
07/03/2018 14:53
Subject: Can I name my Jewish daughter Mary?
Mira or Miri would be better
Anonymous
07/03/2018 14:52
Subject: Can I name my Jewish daughter Mary?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP, you can obviously do what you want.
Non-Jews won't even notice, but a lot of Jews will think it's weird (like this one writing this post). Other Jews won't notice, either.
I think some of us Jews find using generally religious Christian names to feel a little too much like what happens in times and places when Jews are trying a little too hard to pass as Christian, or when it has been dangerous to be easily identified as Jewish. Obviously, that's not the case now, but that, and a history of Jewish persecution by Christians is why people don't see them as "just" a name. Not to mention that plenty of Christians choose "Mary" because it's religious, not just cultural.
Obviously, those situations are not the case right now, but that's behind the weirdness.
"... by Christians ...". This same "logic" leads some fundamentalist churches to blame "the Jews" for the crucifixion of Jesus. Just no.
Um ... the Inquisition? Pogroms? Holocaust? Christians have a documented history of persecuting Jews.
The point is that by saying someone should not name her Jewish daughter Mary because the Inquisition, Pogroms and the Holocaust were undertaken "by Christians" is to blame "Christians" as a whole for the Inquisition, Pogroms and the Holocaust. I would have no problem naming my child Joshua, notwithstanding the actions of Dh? Nuw?s and Simon Bar Kosevah. In this country we don't recognize corruption by blood.
Oh please. That PP referenced "the history of Jewish persecutions by Christians." Which is historically accurate, and which (in part) explains why some Jewish people get uncomfortably with some acts of assimilation, like celebrating Christmas and naming their children names that have strong Christian religions connotations. Nobody said it was "corruption by blood." You're being completely absurd and I wonder what your agenda is.
Agenda? None, other than pointing out that group blame (whatever group that may be) for the acts of others of the same group is wrong and leads quickly to things like racism, nationalism, sexism, anti-semitism, anti-Catholicism, sectarianism, and about 20 other -isms that many of us are working hard to eradicate in society. Its people like you who would blame "the Muslims" for 9-11. Its divisive, wrong and, well, completely absurd. My referring to someone like Simon ben Kosevah, who died almost two millennia ago fighting the Roman Empire, was meant to show you how ridiculous group blame is.
Different poster, but you are very bad at basic reasoning. This whole tangent started from someone saying Jewish people have suffered persecution at the hands of Christians. You've somehow turned that into someone saying ALL CHRISTIANS EVERYWHERE are persecuting Jews, and saying that (which no one is saying) is just as bad as the Holocaust, but no, of course you don't have an agenda.
You sound deranged and very attached to a persecution complex not based in reality. No one is picking on Christians. Get over it.
Sincerely, a Catholic who is very aware of the huge role my religion in both the Inquisition and the Holocaust, not to mention the Crusades.
Anonymous
07/03/2018 14:51
Subject: Can I name my Jewish daughter Mary?
Anonymous wrote:What's with the Simon ben Kosevah business?
To summarize:
P1: Jews don't name kids Mary because of Pogroms!
P2: That's absurd! ** (becomes even more absurd)
Anonymous
07/03/2018 14:47
Subject: Can I name my Jewish daughter Mary?
What's with the Simon ben Kosevah business?
Anonymous
07/03/2018 14:37
Subject: Can I name my Jewish daughter Mary?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP, you can obviously do what you want.
Non-Jews won't even notice, but a lot of Jews will think it's weird (like this one writing this post). Other Jews won't notice, either.
I think some of us Jews find using generally religious Christian names to feel a little too much like what happens in times and places when Jews are trying a little too hard to pass as Christian, or when it has been dangerous to be easily identified as Jewish. Obviously, that's not the case now, but that, and a history of Jewish persecution by Christians is why people don't see them as "just" a name. Not to mention that plenty of Christians choose "Mary" because it's religious, not just cultural.
Obviously, those situations are not the case right now, but that's behind the weirdness.
"... by Christians ...". This same "logic" leads some fundamentalist churches to blame "the Jews" for the crucifixion of Jesus. Just no.
Um ... the Inquisition? Pogroms? Holocaust? Christians have a documented history of persecuting Jews.
The point is that by saying someone should not name her Jewish daughter Mary because the Inquisition, Pogroms and the Holocaust were undertaken "by Christians" is to blame "Christians" as a whole for the Inquisition, Pogroms and the Holocaust. I would have no problem naming my child Joshua, notwithstanding the actions of Dh? Nuw?s and Simon Bar Kosevah. In this country we don't recognize corruption by blood.
Oh please. That PP referenced "the history of Jewish persecutions by Christians." Which is historically accurate, and which (in part) explains why some Jewish people get uncomfortably with some acts of assimilation, like celebrating Christmas and naming their children names that have strong Christian religions connotations. Nobody said it was "corruption by blood." You're being completely absurd and I wonder what your agenda is.
Agenda? None, other than pointing out that group blame (whatever group that may be) for the acts of others of the same group is wrong and leads quickly to things like racism, nationalism, sexism, anti-semitism, anti-Catholicism, sectarianism, and about 20 other -isms that many of us are working hard to eradicate in society. Its people like you who would blame "the Muslims" for 9-11. Its divisive, wrong and, well, completely absurd. My referring to someone like Simon ben Kosevah, who died almost two millennia ago fighting the Roman Empire, was meant to show you how ridiculous group blame is.
Anonymous
07/03/2018 14:21
Subject: Re:Can I name my Jewish daughter Mary?
Yes. Mary is a lovely name!
Anonymous
07/03/2018 14:18
Subject: Re:Can I name my Jewish daughter Mary?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:People will assume she is Catholic for her whole life. She will have to explain she is Jewish her whole life. Do you want to saddle her with this?
Do you assume that everyone named Mary is Catholic? I don't.
Yes I do
I wouldn't admit that in public. Mary was a crazy popular name for decades--the most popular girls' name in the US for well over 50 years. No way does that happen if it's just Catholics using the name.
Also, I'm a cradle Catholic, and I know better to assume that all Marys are Catholic.
Anonymous
07/03/2018 14:10
Subject: Re:Can I name my Jewish daughter Mary?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:People will assume she is Catholic for her whole life. She will have to explain she is Jewish her whole life. Do you want to saddle her with this?
Do you assume that everyone named Mary is Catholic? I don't.
Yes I do
Anonymous
07/03/2018 14:05
Subject: Can I name my Jewish daughter Mary?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP, you can obviously do what you want.
Non-Jews won't even notice, but a lot of Jews will think it's weird (like this one writing this post). Other Jews won't notice, either.
I think some of us Jews find using generally religious Christian names to feel a little too much like what happens in times and places when Jews are trying a little too hard to pass as Christian, or when it has been dangerous to be easily identified as Jewish. Obviously, that's not the case now, but that, and a history of Jewish persecution by Christians is why people don't see them as "just" a name. Not to mention that plenty of Christians choose "Mary" because it's religious, not just cultural.
Obviously, those situations are not the case right now, but that's behind the weirdness.
"... by Christians ...". This same "logic" leads some fundamentalist churches to blame "the Jews" for the crucifixion of Jesus. Just no.
Um ... the Inquisition? Pogroms? Holocaust? Christians have a documented history of persecuting Jews.
The point is that by saying someone should not name her Jewish daughter Mary because the Inquisition, Pogroms and the Holocaust were undertaken "by Christians" is to blame "Christians" as a whole for the Inquisition, Pogroms and the Holocaust. I would have no problem naming my child Joshua, notwithstanding the actions of Dh? Nuw?s and Simon Bar Kosevah. In this country we don't recognize corruption by blood.
Oh please. That PP referenced "the history of Jewish persecutions by Christians." Which is historically accurate, and which (in part) explains why some Jewish people get uncomfortably with some acts of assimilation, like celebrating Christmas and naming their children names that have strong Christian religions connotations. Nobody said it was "corruption by blood." You're being completely absurd and I wonder what your agenda is.
Anonymous
07/03/2018 14:02
Subject: Can I name my Jewish daughter Mary?
OP I am not Jewish but my husband is, and we wanted to give our kids names that were at least plausibly Jewish in case they decide they want to identify as Jewish when they grow up. For this reason, we did not name my daughter Mary even though I otherwise would have liked to, after my (Irith Catholic) grandmother.
If I were you I would go with Miriam. A Jewish Mary born in 1935 may not have been surprising, perhaps in part b/c it was common for parents to try to shield their children from anti-Semitism by giving them non-Jewish-sounding names. But one born in 2018 will be confusing; people will assume she's Catholic.
If I were you I would go with Miriam. A Jewish Mary born in 1935 may not have been surprising, perhaps in part b/c it was common for parents to try to shield their children from anti-Semitism by giving them non-Jewish-sounding names. But one born in 2018 will be confusing; people will assume she's Catholic.
Anonymous
07/03/2018 13:56
Subject: Can I name my Jewish daughter Mary?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP, you can obviously do what you want.
Non-Jews won't even notice, but a lot of Jews will think it's weird (like this one writing this post). Other Jews won't notice, either.
I think some of us Jews find using generally religious Christian names to feel a little too much like what happens in times and places when Jews are trying a little too hard to pass as Christian, or when it has been dangerous to be easily identified as Jewish. Obviously, that's not the case now, but that, and a history of Jewish persecution by Christians is why people don't see them as "just" a name. Not to mention that plenty of Christians choose "Mary" because it's religious, not just cultural.
Obviously, those situations are not the case right now, but that's behind the weirdness.
"... by Christians ...". This same "logic" leads some fundamentalist churches to blame "the Jews" for the crucifixion of Jesus. Just no.
Um ... the Inquisition? Pogroms? Holocaust? Christians have a documented history of persecuting Jews.
The point is that by saying someone should not name her Jewish daughter Mary because the Inquisition, Pogroms and the Holocaust were undertaken "by Christians" is to blame "Christians" as a whole for the Inquisition, Pogroms and the Holocaust. I would have no problem naming my child Joshua, notwithstanding the actions of Dh? Nuw?s and Simon Bar Kosevah. In this country we don't recognize corruption by blood.
Anonymous
07/03/2018 13:38
Subject: Can I name my Jewish daughter Mary?
I know a Jewish Mary. Two, actually.
Anonymous
07/03/2018 13:31
Subject: Can I name my Jewish daughter Mary?
Anonymous wrote:Marion is a great compromise, imo. But if you love Mary, go with Mary. Then you can also explain that you're unaffiliated because all the Jews ypu meet are rude and judgmental, while the Christians welcome you and your children with open arms. Because you will get side-eye in contemporary Jewish circles.
Marion/Marian is even more Catholic, if you ask me (as someone who is religiously unaffiliated but grew up in the evangelical South). "Mary" has the benefit of being Old Testament at least.