Anonymous
04/18/2018 08:24
Subject: All Souls UU in DC - why did Rev. Susan leave?
Anonymous wrote:From the Post:
"Even among congregants focused on getting Moore a strong severance package, there is a willingness to admit she had drawbacks."
Is this true? Personally I've not heard a single Rev Susan supporter mention her drawbacks. It's what tips me over to the Rev Hardies side. We've had plenty of airing of his shortcomings.
I see a distinction between mentioning another's drawbacks and admitting to those drawbacks. It's an active vs. passive thing.
Anonymous
04/17/2018 16:13
Subject: All Souls UU in DC - why did Rev. Susan leave?
From the Post:
"Even among congregants focused on getting Moore a strong severance package, there is a willingness to admit she had drawbacks."
Is this true? Personally I've not heard a single Rev Susan supporter mention her drawbacks. It's what tips me over to the Rev Hardies side. We've had plenty of airing of his shortcomings.
"Even among congregants focused on getting Moore a strong severance package, there is a willingness to admit she had drawbacks."
Is this true? Personally I've not heard a single Rev Susan supporter mention her drawbacks. It's what tips me over to the Rev Hardies side. We've had plenty of airing of his shortcomings.
Anonymous
04/17/2018 13:23
Subject: Re:All Souls UU in DC - why did Rev. Susan leave?
Anonymous wrote:Has there been an agreement reached about her severance? I thought there was still a stalemate?
I doubt Rev. Moore will start her own church, she is 60. Not every dispute leads to some positive outcome for all.
My opinion is that the ministers, like all humans, both have flaws. That said, they balanced each other wonderfully. I miss Rev. Susan's warmth and sense of humor and her sermons. Rob brings something very different.
Hopefully things will be resolved soon, it is closing in on a year. Reeve started a ball rolling and topped that with The City Paper article. Rob seems to have pushed out Rev. Susan "so others would not leave" which seems to have been code for the ED, who then retired the day after Rev. Susan's separation. I believe the retirement was expected but the timing was striking. Rev. Susan put out a video that explained her side and the UCC did not like that. It is a shame that Rev. Susan and her contributions were not embraced more fully by AS, as they seem to have been by the UUA. I fear this incident and the continued gentrification will push AS to become far less divers.
Eh, there is no drama like church drama!
Yes-- I'm sorry-- that is what I meant to say but was inarticulate-- things are stuck at a stalemate regarding severance. I agree with everything you say-- that's just wishful thinking on my part that rev. Newman-Moore would start up a church. I suppose that isn't happening. Maybe a professorship or she could write more books.
Anonymous
04/17/2018 12:15
Subject: Re:All Souls UU in DC - why did Rev. Susan leave?
Has there been an agreement reached about her severance? I thought there was still a stalemate?
I doubt Rev. Moore will start her own church, she is 60. Not every dispute leads to some positive outcome for all.
My opinion is that the ministers, like all humans, both have flaws. That said, they balanced each other wonderfully. I miss Rev. Susan's warmth and sense of humor and her sermons. Rob brings something very different.
Hopefully things will be resolved soon, it is closing in on a year. Reeve started a ball rolling and topped that with The City Paper article. Rob seems to have pushed out Rev. Susan "so others would not leave" which seems to have been code for the ED, who then retired the day after Rev. Susan's separation. I believe the retirement was expected but the timing was striking. Rev. Susan put out a video that explained her side and the UCC did not like that. It is a shame that Rev. Susan and her contributions were not embraced more fully by AS, as they seem to have been by the UUA. I fear this incident and the continued gentrification will push AS to become far less divers.
Eh, there is no drama like church drama!
I doubt Rev. Moore will start her own church, she is 60. Not every dispute leads to some positive outcome for all.
My opinion is that the ministers, like all humans, both have flaws. That said, they balanced each other wonderfully. I miss Rev. Susan's warmth and sense of humor and her sermons. Rob brings something very different.
Hopefully things will be resolved soon, it is closing in on a year. Reeve started a ball rolling and topped that with The City Paper article. Rob seems to have pushed out Rev. Susan "so others would not leave" which seems to have been code for the ED, who then retired the day after Rev. Susan's separation. I believe the retirement was expected but the timing was striking. Rev. Susan put out a video that explained her side and the UCC did not like that. It is a shame that Rev. Susan and her contributions were not embraced more fully by AS, as they seem to have been by the UUA. I fear this incident and the continued gentrification will push AS to become far less divers.
Eh, there is no drama like church drama!
Anonymous
04/17/2018 10:35
Subject: All Souls UU in DC - why did Rev. Susan leave?
Anonymous wrote:Article about this issue in the Post today:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/04/17/what-happens-when-a-church-dedicated-to-fighting-white-supremacy-is-accused-of-it/?utm_term=.0c7a68cb602d
I'm a member of All Souls Church and this has been personally wrenching experience for me as I love both Rev. Hardies and Rev. Newman- Moore--but I just don't see this situation as newsworthy.
The greatest sin of Rev. Hardies is that he didn't give annual performance evaluations to his colleague? There are people that are calling for his removal over this!
I don't know what Rev. Newman-Moore did but I hated that this all came down on her while bereaving the loss of her mother.
I just watched two documentaries-- Come Sunday and Wild, Wild Country--- and they helped me put all this into perspective. (Bishop Pearson of Come Sunday has actually preached at All Souls UU DC a few years ago-- at Rev. Hardies request, I recall-- and he was amazing!)
Unlike Come Sunday, this isn't a biblically based schism on the nature of God.
Unlike Wild, Wild Country, neither Rev. Hardies nor Rev. Newman-Moore bilked millions of dollars, engaged in immigration fraud or attempted murder. I'm thinking that to outsiders this really comes down to a pretty boring workplace dispute which is currently in the mundane process of wrapping up after the parties come to agreement on a severance package. Yes, there will also be workshops and committee meetings and perhaps a change in church governance policy. After all, we are Unitarians! But no one is going to jail. Rev. Newman-Moore may start her own church and some may leave All Souls and go to her church. Maybe Rev. Hardies will take a demotion as management is not his wheelhouse and the church may need to hire someone that will just take over all that managerial stuff.
In sum, for those of us in the church this is as traumatic as having your parents divorce. But for outsiders, I don't get the appeal. why do you care? Better to watch Come Sunday or Wild, Wild Country on Netflix!
Anonymous
04/17/2018 10:09
Subject: All Souls UU in DC - why did Rev. Susan leave?
Article about this issue in the Post today:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/04/17/what-happens-when-a-church-dedicated-to-fighting-white-supremacy-is-accused-of-it/?utm_term=.0c7a68cb602d
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/04/17/what-happens-when-a-church-dedicated-to-fighting-white-supremacy-is-accused-of-it/?utm_term=.0c7a68cb602d
Anonymous
04/15/2018 18:46
Subject: Re:All Souls UU in DC - why did Rev. Susan leave?
What I try to remember is that the United Church of Christ revoked Reverend Moore's ability to minister so there must have been some egregious performance issue for them to take such a drastic step.
Also, I agree that the woman who is one of her most ardent supporters seems like a very difficult person to have a discourse with. Not to mention. she does not seem to realize that her actions could also be interpreted as racist. She has positioned herself as the Reverend's savior and does she not realize how condescending this is to the Rev. Moore? A white woman leaps in to "save" a person of color? How completely patronizing. SMH
Also, I agree that the woman who is one of her most ardent supporters seems like a very difficult person to have a discourse with. Not to mention. she does not seem to realize that her actions could also be interpreted as racist. She has positioned herself as the Reverend's savior and does she not realize how condescending this is to the Rev. Moore? A white woman leaps in to "save" a person of color? How completely patronizing. SMH
Anonymous
04/15/2018 15:51
Subject: Re:All Souls UU in DC - why did Rev. Susan leave?
Anonymous wrote:I wish Rev Susan well but find the people at AS exhausting. Anyone have a church they like?
This lind of thing can happen anywhere.
Anonymous
04/15/2018 15:47
Subject: Re:All Souls UU in DC - why did Rev. Susan leave?
Anonymous wrote:I wish Rev Susan well but find the people at AS exhausting. Anyone have a church they like?
Ditto.
Anonymous
04/15/2018 15:15
Subject: Re:All Souls UU in DC - why did Rev. Susan leave?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Interesting. I saw this topic had grown since I posted awhile back about the sarcastic comment about a bake sale and how it was emblematic of the hypocritical atmosphere at all souls. I'm amazed, or maybe not amazed, to find one of the most compelling - and also troubling - voices in this debate lifted it from here to quote it and put it on the All Souls Facebook page to bolster her argument. This person has tirelessly defended the Minister who was pushed out, and has been unfairly attacked by another parishoner who seems to have finally (and thankfully) gone silent. But it was their toxic online volley - why didn't these people take this offline and talk over their differences in person? Or just ignore each other the way we should with bullies? - that was just as repulsive. And then once this guy seemed to finally stop posting on the page (and he too was like a pit bull and awful to read), her relentless attacks toward other people contributed equally to my disillusionment with all souls - why was this acceptable? What sort of community tolerates this? What kind of community alienates people this much that they fight it out like this? And of course, everyone that got pulled into these arguments in most cases made it worse.
I'm equally repulsed by how the Minister was pushed out as I am by the lack of genuine decency at times in this person's tone toward others - her focus is all consuming to the point that one wonders how she has time for anything else. Whenever people try to gently (or not gently) tell her this online, she pushes back.
She is to be applauded for defending the Rev. who was forced out, but someone needs to counsel her on treating people with respect, and how to persuasively argue a position without alienating potential allies and damaging the cause. There are other women of color in the community who are defending the Rev who was wronged and fearlessly talking about race at All Souls in a way that encourages dialogue. I doubt she will quote this comment on the facebook page, but perhaps she'll sit down and ask herself some hard questions about whether she really is committed to dialogue, and whether her tactics have genuinely helped the Reverend who was so deeply wronged.
I completely agree. It is relentless and if I leave the church it will be because of this kind of thing. Thanks for posting.
But there are people like this everywhere, aren't there? And social media makes their voices louder, and more obnoxious. You won't hear her if you stop going on line to see what she's up to. And maybe you'll feel better about All souls and about people in general.
Do you really think this only happens online? No.
Anonymous
04/15/2018 15:09
Subject: Re:All Souls UU in DC - why did Rev. Susan leave?
I wish Rev Susan well but find the people at AS exhausting. Anyone have a church they like?
Anonymous
04/15/2018 14:04
Subject: All Souls UU in DC - why did Rev. Susan leave?
It says so much that people are focusing so much on a female individual's tone when there are white men on the forum saying things that are overtly racist.
I quit going to All Souls because of precisely this. When women step out of line, they are tone policed and shamed. But when men in the congregation are obnoxious, sexist, racist, sexually harassing, women are told over and over and over that we have to be nice because "maybe he's autistic."
Meanwhile, women in the community who are actually autistic (who never use their diagnosis as an excuse - the woman you are talking about is a POC who is on the spectrum so maybe chill) receive the sorts of commentary seen above. Similar criticism is hurled at anyone who is gender nonconforming who dares to be critical of church leadership, or the lack of it on trans issues. But cis white men can do no wrong.
The women you think have advanced the conversation around race are only able to take that approach because one person is standing up to take all the heat. I'm one of the people making the commentaries that you think are thoughtful and I'm able to do so because the facts have been presented so consistently across a period of several weeks by the only person at All Souls with the tenacity to read every post on that page.
I don't have the energy to go back-and-forth with these people. Her commentary draws them out of the woodwork so effectively that you all are here bashing her anonymously because you know how you'll look if you take it up with her in public. If you have an issue with her go take it up with her. She has engaged with every single person who has criticized her on Facebook.
I quit going to All Souls because of precisely this. When women step out of line, they are tone policed and shamed. But when men in the congregation are obnoxious, sexist, racist, sexually harassing, women are told over and over and over that we have to be nice because "maybe he's autistic."
Meanwhile, women in the community who are actually autistic (who never use their diagnosis as an excuse - the woman you are talking about is a POC who is on the spectrum so maybe chill) receive the sorts of commentary seen above. Similar criticism is hurled at anyone who is gender nonconforming who dares to be critical of church leadership, or the lack of it on trans issues. But cis white men can do no wrong.
The women you think have advanced the conversation around race are only able to take that approach because one person is standing up to take all the heat. I'm one of the people making the commentaries that you think are thoughtful and I'm able to do so because the facts have been presented so consistently across a period of several weeks by the only person at All Souls with the tenacity to read every post on that page.
I don't have the energy to go back-and-forth with these people. Her commentary draws them out of the woodwork so effectively that you all are here bashing her anonymously because you know how you'll look if you take it up with her in public. If you have an issue with her go take it up with her. She has engaged with every single person who has criticized her on Facebook.
Anonymous
04/14/2018 18:29
Subject: Re:All Souls UU in DC - why did Rev. Susan leave?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Interesting. I saw this topic had grown since I posted awhile back about the sarcastic comment about a bake sale and how it was emblematic of the hypocritical atmosphere at all souls. I'm amazed, or maybe not amazed, to find one of the most compelling - and also troubling - voices in this debate lifted it from here to quote it and put it on the All Souls Facebook page to bolster her argument. This person has tirelessly defended the Minister who was pushed out, and has been unfairly attacked by another parishoner who seems to have finally (and thankfully) gone silent. But it was their toxic online volley - why didn't these people take this offline and talk over their differences in person? Or just ignore each other the way we should with bullies? - that was just as repulsive. And then once this guy seemed to finally stop posting on the page (and he too was like a pit bull and awful to read), her relentless attacks toward other people contributed equally to my disillusionment with all souls - why was this acceptable? What sort of community tolerates this? What kind of community alienates people this much that they fight it out like this? And of course, everyone that got pulled into these arguments in most cases made it worse.
I'm equally repulsed by how the Minister was pushed out as I am by the lack of genuine decency at times in this person's tone toward others - her focus is all consuming to the point that one wonders how she has time for anything else. Whenever people try to gently (or not gently) tell her this online, she pushes back.
She is to be applauded for defending the Rev. who was forced out, but someone needs to counsel her on treating people with respect, and how to persuasively argue a position without alienating potential allies and damaging the cause. There are other women of color in the community who are defending the Rev who was wronged and fearlessly talking about race at All Souls in a way that encourages dialogue. I doubt she will quote this comment on the facebook page, but perhaps she'll sit down and ask herself some hard questions about whether she really is committed to dialogue, and whether her tactics have genuinely helped the Reverend who was so deeply wronged.
I completely agree. It is relentless and if I leave the church it will be because of this kind of thing. Thanks for posting.
But there are people like this everywhere, aren't there? And social media makes their voices louder, and more obnoxious. You won't hear her if you stop going on line to see what she's up to. And maybe you'll feel better about All souls and about people in general.
Anonymous
04/14/2018 08:01
Subject: Re:All Souls UU in DC - why did Rev. Susan leave?
Anonymous wrote:Interesting. I saw this topic had grown since I posted awhile back about the sarcastic comment about a bake sale and how it was emblematic of the hypocritical atmosphere at all souls. I'm amazed, or maybe not amazed, to find one of the most compelling - and also troubling - voices in this debate lifted it from here to quote it and put it on the All Souls Facebook page to bolster her argument. This person has tirelessly defended the Minister who was pushed out, and has been unfairly attacked by another parishoner who seems to have finally (and thankfully) gone silent. But it was their toxic online volley - why didn't these people take this offline and talk over their differences in person? Or just ignore each other the way we should with bullies? - that was just as repulsive. And then once this guy seemed to finally stop posting on the page (and he too was like a pit bull and awful to read), her relentless attacks toward other people contributed equally to my disillusionment with all souls - why was this acceptable? What sort of community tolerates this? What kind of community alienates people this much that they fight it out like this? And of course, everyone that got pulled into these arguments in most cases made it worse.
I'm equally repulsed by how the Minister was pushed out as I am by the lack of genuine decency at times in this person's tone toward others - her focus is all consuming to the point that one wonders how she has time for anything else. Whenever people try to gently (or not gently) tell her this online, she pushes back.
She is to be applauded for defending the Rev. who was forced out, but someone needs to counsel her on treating people with respect, and how to persuasively argue a position without alienating potential allies and damaging the cause. There are other women of color in the community who are defending the Rev who was wronged and fearlessly talking about race at All Souls in a way that encourages dialogue. I doubt she will quote this comment on the facebook page, but perhaps she'll sit down and ask herself some hard questions about whether she really is committed to dialogue, and whether her tactics have genuinely helped the Reverend who was so deeply wronged.
I completely agree. It is relentless and if I leave the church it will be because of this kind of thing. Thanks for posting.
Anonymous
04/14/2018 07:56
Subject: All Souls UU in DC - why did Rev. Susan leave?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Too bad she decided not to peruse the remediation plan the UCC put forward so she could stay ordained within the UCC.
She's ordained within the Baptist faith. She doesn't need the UCC and tons of UCC clergy are supporting her since this Audrey Price seems to have a vendetta going against several black clergy in the area.
I don’t think Rev. Susan is ordained in the Baptist Church. And I sincerely wish you would not denigrate other clergy here or on any other forum. It is not only unfair to those clergy, it doesn’t serve Rev. Susan well.
I'm not the one doing the denigrating; the sentiment is being expressed very strongly by many clergy of color within the UCC, as can be seen in this video which contains several local UCC ministers:
https://www.facebook.com/gshagler/videos/10214858946042825/?hc_ref=ARTVcMsspRYnsrKguYSbzEWxuC00sHFaIZk91HAnlT3wVh-cBgT7sYW2er0LlohK-EE
Her actions, and the actions of the UCC tribunal, have been held up as an example of white supremacy by many black clergy within the UCC and UUA. You seem awfully invested in defending someone who held a meeting about Reverend Susan's suspension on <i>the day that her mother died.</i>
You are, actually, publicly disparaging other clergy by name here and perhaps on other forums.
I am not defending the senior minister and would personally prefer for him to step down. I’d prefer for an interim minister to come in and help the congregation move forward. But I also wish you’d stop disparaging other clergy. It does not serve Rev. Susan well, as I said.