Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is interesting.

I am a POC who started my career in Big Law. At the time, there was only one POC partner and he wielded significant power because he had been high up at DOJ and was a tremendous rainmaker. While I was there, I was told a number of negative things about my ability and my future – one partner was especially nasty. It was demoralizing. Well POC partner told me that he learned early on that POC cannot make partner like others make partner. There are too many minefields for most associates, but especially women and POC, to come up through the ranks. We need to do some time in BigLaw, go elsewhere (government or in-house), forge relationships and come back with our books in tow. Well, I did my time there and moved on. I am now the Dep GC at a medium/large company and I control a $30 million outside counsel budget – nothing huge but enough to get some attention from Big Law partners. My internal clients are diverse and very smart – a legal team that is not diverse would not be an easy sell.

I do not “insist” on diversity with respect to my outside counsel but I do ask if I do not see any. If I get a BS answer, it is likely that the firm will not get my business. Having been where I have been and working with diverse clients, I KNOW that the definition of “qualified” is not a static definition. I also know that there are a lot of qualified lawyers who do not fit the Big Law mold.

Good for you. (Another POC attorney, in-house here).

I wish this message was clearer to me when I was a younger black big law associate. I wouldn't have taken the criticism so hard and blamed myself. I did everything I could to make it work, billed tons of hours, wrote briefs, was the first in my class to take a deposition for a paying client, but I got the bad review during my 4th year that I "lacked attention to detail" and would need to find another job. No negative feedback from the partners and my firm had a policy that we couldn't read the reviews because the partners wouldn't be candid. It was a big firm in Chicago.

It was the only thing I've ever "failed" at achieving. To law school, law review, etc. Ironically, it was for the best, because like y'all, I went into the government (clerking then SEC), worked my way up, and am an in-house attorney who's doing incredibly well (7 years in house).

It was a difficult few years and it took time to get my confidence back. I'll never forget during my last day I demanded and made copies of my reviews. They were full of things I've never heard about, events I was never involved in...just lies. I didn't fight it, but left, clerked, and realized that even if I did something, the negative attention would be career suicide and firms aren't dumb...there's plenty of ways to meet their burden to beat off a discrimination complaint through endless papering of files.

I wish we were more honest.

Thanks so much for posting this! I'm the PP black female mom in big law and really needed this. I'm in the midst of the storm right now and am glad to hear that you landed very well. I'm looking for my next opportunity now (in-house or gov) and this gives me hope.

I am the first PP and the very first thing you need to realize is that whatever the firm is putting you through is a reflection on that firm and not your ability, potential or future as a lawyer. You need to look in the mirror every single day and repeat that affirmation every single day. The other thing you need to is embrace (yes, embrace) the fact that the particular firm is not the place for you - you do not fit the firm and the firm does not fit you. That frees you up to start planning the next step. That was the hardest thing for me to understand. I thought I was a failure. Yet a big part of the problem was the firm being clueless about how to use my strengths. Once I moved on to a place that was all about identifying strengths and allowing me to position myself to succeed, I saw how woeful the firm was on the professional development front.

Anonymous wrote:If it were illegal, I'm sure the attorneys would say so...right??

Anonymous wrote:OP, yes I know it's about diversity. But it still still sounds wrong to me for clients to demand quotas, when employers aren't supposed to use them. What I was thinking of were the days when men would request a male doctor (or whites would request a white doctor) because they assumed a male or white doctor would be more competent. If a man came into the ER today with a broken arm and insisted on seeing a male doctor, or a white doctor, for treatment, would the hospital honor the request?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find the parallel discussions illuminating. It's so crazy someone ought to share this with abovethelaw.

Why? It's not as if most people who spent time in biglaw aren't aware of all this.

Look at this thread. It's literally people denying this (like the comment above) while other people are "uh, yeah, this is happening."

I mean, do you see the comment of the asshole above this? Despite multiple different random people all chiming in and basically saying...if you want to be a successful attorney as a working mother or black person, big law is not where it will happen. And by the way, you'll be subjected to essentially gas lighting on the way out the door. Crazy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is interesting.

I am a POC who started my career in Big Law. At the time, there was only one POC partner and he wielded significant power because he had been high up at DOJ and was a tremendous rainmaker. While I was there, I was told a number of negative things about my ability and my future – one partner was especially nasty. It was demoralizing. Well POC partner told me that he learned early on that POC cannot make partner like others make partner. There are too many minefields for most associates, but especially women and POC, to come up through the ranks. We need to do some time in BigLaw, go elsewhere (government or in-house), forge relationships and come back with our books in tow. Well, I did my time there and moved on. I am now the Dep GC at a medium/large company and I control a $30 million outside counsel budget – nothing huge but enough to get some attention from Big Law partners. My internal clients are diverse and very smart – a legal team that is not diverse would not be an easy sell.

I do not “insist” on diversity with respect to my outside counsel but I do ask if I do not see any. If I get a BS answer, it is likely that the firm will not get my business. Having been where I have been and working with diverse clients, I KNOW that the definition of “qualified” is not a static definition. I also know that there are a lot of qualified lawyers who do not fit the Big Law mold.

Good for you. (Another POC attorney, in-house here).

I wish this message was clearer to me when I was a younger black big law associate. I wouldn't have taken the criticism so hard and blamed myself. I did everything I could to make it work, billed tons of hours, wrote briefs, was the first in my class to take a deposition for a paying client, but I got the bad review during my 4th year that I "lacked attention to detail" and would need to find another job. No negative feedback from the partners and my firm had a policy that we couldn't read the reviews because the partners wouldn't be candid. It was a big firm in Chicago.

It was the only thing I've ever "failed" at achieving. To law school, law review, etc. Ironically, it was for the best, because like y'all, I went into the government (clerking then SEC), worked my way up, and am an in-house attorney who's doing incredibly well (7 years in house).

It was a difficult few years and it took time to get my confidence back. I'll never forget during my last day I demanded and made copies of my reviews. They were full of things I've never heard about, events I was never involved in...just lies. I didn't fight it, but left, clerked, and realized that even if I did something, the negative attention would be career suicide and firms aren't dumb...there's plenty of ways to meet their burden to beat off a discrimination complaint through endless papering of files.

I wish we were more honest.

Thanks so much for posting this! I'm the PP black female mom in big law and really needed this. I'm in the midst of the storm right now and am glad to hear that you landed very well. I'm looking for my next opportunity now (in-house or gov) and this gives me hope.

I am the first PP and the very first thing you need to realize is that whatever the firm is putting you through is a reflection on that firm and not your ability, potential or future as a lawyer. You need to look in the mirror every single day and repeat that affirmation every single day. The other thing you need to is embrace (yes, embrace) the fact that the particular firm is not the place for you - you do not fit the firm and the firm does not fit you. That frees you up to start planning the next step. That was the hardest thing for me to understand. I thought I was a failure. Yet a big part of the problem was the firm being clueless about how to use my strengths. Once I moved on to a place that was all about identifying strengths and allowing me to position myself to succeed, I saw how woeful the firm was on the professional development front.

Nice rationalization.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find the parallel discussions illuminating. It's so crazy someone ought to share this with abovethelaw.

Why? It's not as if most people who spent time in biglaw aren't aware of all this.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is interesting.

I am a POC who started my career in Big Law. At the time, there was only one POC partner and he wielded significant power because he had been high up at DOJ and was a tremendous rainmaker. While I was there, I was told a number of negative things about my ability and my future – one partner was especially nasty. It was demoralizing. Well POC partner told me that he learned early on that POC cannot make partner like others make partner. There are too many minefields for most associates, but especially women and POC, to come up through the ranks. We need to do some time in BigLaw, go elsewhere (government or in-house), forge relationships and come back with our books in tow. Well, I did my time there and moved on. I am now the Dep GC at a medium/large company and I control a $30 million outside counsel budget – nothing huge but enough to get some attention from Big Law partners. My internal clients are diverse and very smart – a legal team that is not diverse would not be an easy sell.

I do not “insist” on diversity with respect to my outside counsel but I do ask if I do not see any. If I get a BS answer, it is likely that the firm will not get my business. Having been where I have been and working with diverse clients, I KNOW that the definition of “qualified” is not a static definition. I also know that there are a lot of qualified lawyers who do not fit the Big Law mold.

Good for you. (Another POC attorney, in-house here).

I wish this message was clearer to me when I was a younger black big law associate. I wouldn't have taken the criticism so hard and blamed myself. I did everything I could to make it work, billed tons of hours, wrote briefs, was the first in my class to take a deposition for a paying client, but I got the bad review during my 4th year that I "lacked attention to detail" and would need to find another job. No negative feedback from the partners and my firm had a policy that we couldn't read the reviews because the partners wouldn't be candid. It was a big firm in Chicago.

It was the only thing I've ever "failed" at achieving. To law school, law review, etc. Ironically, it was for the best, because like y'all, I went into the government (clerking then SEC), worked my way up, and am an in-house attorney who's doing incredibly well (7 years in house).

It was a difficult few years and it took time to get my confidence back. I'll never forget during my last day I demanded and made copies of my reviews. They were full of things I've never heard about, events I was never involved in...just lies. I didn't fight it, but left, clerked, and realized that even if I did something, the negative attention would be career suicide and firms aren't dumb...there's plenty of ways to meet their burden to beat off a discrimination complaint through endless papering of files.

I wish we were more honest.

Thanks so much for posting this! I'm the PP black female mom in big law and really needed this. I'm in the midst of the storm right now and am glad to hear that you landed very well. I'm looking for my next opportunity now (in-house or gov) and this gives me hope.

I am the first PP and the very first thing you need to realize is that whatever the firm is putting you through is a reflection on that firm and not your ability, potential or future as a lawyer. You need to look in the mirror every single day and repeat that affirmation every single day. The other thing you need to is embrace (yes, embrace) the fact that the particular firm is not the place for you - you do not fit the firm and the firm does not fit you. That frees you up to start planning the next step. That was the hardest thing for me to understand. I thought I was a failure. Yet a big part of the problem was the firm being clueless about how to use my strengths. Once I moved on to a place that was all about identifying strengths and allowing me to position myself to succeed, I saw how woeful the firm was on the professional development front.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is interesting.

I am a POC who started my career in Big Law. At the time, there was only one POC partner and he wielded significant power because he had been high up at DOJ and was a tremendous rainmaker. While I was there, I was told a number of negative things about my ability and my future – one partner was especially nasty. It was demoralizing. Well POC partner told me that he learned early on that POC cannot make partner like others make partner. There are too many minefields for most associates, but especially women and POC, to come up through the ranks. We need to do some time in BigLaw, go elsewhere (government or in-house), forge relationships and come back with our books in tow. Well, I did my time there and moved on. I am now the Dep GC at a medium/large company and I control a $30 million outside counsel budget – nothing huge but enough to get some attention from Big Law partners. My internal clients are diverse and very smart – a legal team that is not diverse would not be an easy sell.

I do not “insist” on diversity with respect to my outside counsel but I do ask if I do not see any. If I get a BS answer, it is likely that the firm will not get my business. Having been where I have been and working with diverse clients, I KNOW that the definition of “qualified” is not a static definition. I also know that there are a lot of qualified lawyers who do not fit the Big Law mold.

Good for you. (Another POC attorney, in-house here).

I wish this message was clearer to me when I was a younger black big law associate. I wouldn't have taken the criticism so hard and blamed myself. I did everything I could to make it work, billed tons of hours, wrote briefs, was the first in my class to take a deposition for a paying client, but I got the bad review during my 4th year that I "lacked attention to detail" and would need to find another job. No negative feedback from the partners and my firm had a policy that we couldn't read the reviews because the partners wouldn't be candid. It was a big firm in Chicago.

It was the only thing I've ever "failed" at achieving. To law school, law review, etc. Ironically, it was for the best, because like y'all, I went into the government (clerking then SEC), worked my way up, and am an in-house attorney who's doing incredibly well (7 years in house).

It was a difficult few years and it took time to get my confidence back. I'll never forget during my last day I demanded and made copies of my reviews. They were full of things I've never heard about, events I was never involved in...just lies. I didn't fight it, but left, clerked, and realized that even if I did something, the negative attention would be career suicide and firms aren't dumb...there's plenty of ways to meet their burden to beat off a discrimination complaint through endless papering of files.

I wish we were more honest.

Thanks so much for posting this! I'm the PP black female mom in big law and really needed this. I'm in the midst of the storm right now and am glad to hear that you landed very well. I'm looking for my next opportunity now (in-house or gov) and this gives me hope.

Anonymous wrote:I find the parallel discussions illuminating. It's so crazy someone ought to share this with abovethelaw.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a big law client ability trumps diversity. We too have to deal with diversity challenges but when you are paying absurd hourly rates you expect the best.

You can have the best and still have diversity. Surely you aren't saying that having the best means that you have an all white team?

Sometimes the best teams aren't diverse. Soldiers, engineers, and to a certain extent, police officers tend not to be very diverse. The team will be weaker if you force diversity in certain jobs. They typically lower standards when they push diversity, so the outcome isn't really that surprising.

Maybe one day people will talk about REAL DIVERSITY, which has more to do with your way of thinking that is shaped by your experiences, and not your skin color.

Angry white dude is angry that being a white dude no longer makes him a success just for being mediocre.

As opposed being mediocre and propped up by affirmative action?

That's a nice but of fantasy you're writing for yourself.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, but if a white guy is not selected for an important project because the client wants a certain number of women/POC, how is this not race/sex discrimination? Unfortunately the flip side of inclusion is sometimes exclusion.

Because white guys aren't a protected class. I hope you aren't a lawyer. SMH.

The S Ct long ago ruled exactly the opposite of what you just said and shook your head about. Gosh are you dumb.

Citation?