Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why not model Brownie/Girl Scouts after Cub Scouts/Boy Scouts?

I was in Brownies and Girl Scouts as a kid and I had fun and earned patches just like the Cub Scouts/Boy Scouts do. Many of our activities were not unlike Cub/Boy Scouts. I know because my sons were both involved in Cub/Boy Scouts.

It has been about 40 years since I was in Girl Scouts so I am not all that familiar with the group today. But I can say that Cub/Boy scouts was wonderful for my boys. I don't think it's necessary to make scouting coed - that would really change the dynamics for the kids.

Girl Scouts is just fine on their own, thankyouverymuch.

Just as when you were a Girl Scout (Brownies are Girl Scouts, unlike Cub Scouts not being Boy Scouts), there are patches to earn and all sorts of activities to do. They have since added "journeys" which are.... fine. Lots of good ideas if the leaders/parents do it, but pretty easy to earn doing only crafty type stuff (which is where a lot of the criticism lately comes from)

Unlike Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts is a much more flexible program. Daisy, Brownie, Junior, Cadette, Senior Ambassador are all aged based. So you move up regardless of what you earn or don't earn.
Within each level, you can do as much or as little as you and the troop would like.
This, of course, leads to a lot of flexibility which can be great, but can also lead to some mismatches in experiences.

As an example of some of the things Girl Scouts do, here are some of the council programs for Girl Scouts of Central Maryland coming up JUST IN SEPTEMBER! All Girl Scouts troops in the area can sign up for these activities. (Most have a small fee)

Chemistry in the Kitchen (open to all levels)
Geocaching Treasure Hunt (for brownies)
Geocaching Treasure Hunge (for older girls)
Make-HER Mondays(Brownies to Cadettes): [activities in the maker lab space]
Aberdeen Proving Ground STEM Day (all levels, also open to Boy Scouts)
Ready, Aim, BullsEye Archery Program (everyone but Daisies)
Marsh Ecology Paddle (Juniors and up)

Add in to that, of course, specific troop activities.

That's great. Why would the girls need to branch off from Girl Scouts and have a Cub Scout/Boy Scout troop? What is the Girl Scout program missing for these girls?

It's not the program that their brothers are in.

Parents who want to be leaders in both programs need to do two registrations, two background checks, two basic leader training, two camp trainings, attend two sets of roundtable/Service Unit meetings. Everyone in one organization streamlines things.

Parents only have to drive kids to ONE meeting, not two....

Sisters are invited to most of the Cub Scout activities, but brothers and non-girls scouts would not likely be invited to the above listed Council Programs. Usually in Girl Scouts, "tagalongs" as they are called are not allowed, nor are extra parents who aren't leading the activities.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why not model Brownie/Girl Scouts after Cub Scouts/Boy Scouts?

I was in Brownies and Girl Scouts as a kid and I had fun and earned patches just like the Cub Scouts/Boy Scouts do. Many of our activities were not unlike Cub/Boy Scouts. I know because my sons were both involved in Cub/Boy Scouts.

It has been about 40 years since I was in Girl Scouts so I am not all that familiar with the group today. But I can say that Cub/Boy scouts was wonderful for my boys. I don't think it's necessary to make scouting coed - that would really change the dynamics for the kids.

Girl Scouts is just fine on their own, thankyouverymuch.

Just as when you were a Girl Scout (Brownies are Girl Scouts, unlike Cub Scouts not being Boy Scouts), there are patches to earn and all sorts of activities to do. They have since added "journeys" which are.... fine. Lots of good ideas if the leaders/parents do it, but pretty easy to earn doing only crafty type stuff (which is where a lot of the criticism lately comes from)

Unlike Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts is a much more flexible program. Daisy, Brownie, Junior, Cadette, Senior Ambassador are all aged based. So you move up regardless of what you earn or don't earn.
Within each level, you can do as much or as little as you and the troop would like.
This, of course, leads to a lot of flexibility which can be great, but can also lead to some mismatches in experiences.

As an example of some of the things Girl Scouts do, here are some of the council programs for Girl Scouts of Central Maryland coming up JUST IN SEPTEMBER! All Girl Scouts troops in the area can sign up for these activities. (Most have a small fee)

Chemistry in the Kitchen (open to all levels)
Geocaching Treasure Hunt (for brownies)
Geocaching Treasure Hunge (for older girls)
Make-HER Mondays(Brownies to Cadettes): [activities in the maker lab space]
Aberdeen Proving Ground STEM Day (all levels, also open to Boy Scouts)
Ready, Aim, BullsEye Archery Program (everyone but Daisies)
Marsh Ecology Paddle (Juniors and up)

Add in to that, of course, specific troop activities.

That's great. Why would the girls need to branch off from Girl Scouts and have a Cub Scout/Boy Scout troop? What is the Girl Scout program missing for these girls?

Anonymous wrote:
But that is not what is going to happen.

Not every town is like here where there are multiple options for each activities. Our neighborhood has around a dozen boy scout troops within a five minute drive. My home town and many other have one, maaybe two. What you are going to have in many parts of the country is a situation where a girl who wants to be a Boy Scout will need to drive 45 minutes or more to find a troop that accepts girls.

So what are these girls going to do? They are going to fight (and likely take it online, viral or to the media) to fight to force these single gender Boy Cout troops to become coed. Separate but equal will not be equal or fair at all, especially as it takes time to get a critical mass of people to create a program. Tye first time a girl is told they cannot join their local Boy Scout troop or Cub Scout pack and have to drive an hour to find a girls' Boy Scout troop or coed Cub Scout den, there is going to be a huge battle, bigger than what they dealt with on the gay scout issue because BSA is starting off by telling people they can have separate, boy only Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts. Tuey are opening Pandora's box and it is not going to result in the membership bump they are hoping for.

But now they have an option -- they can be invited to start their own Cub Scout for Girls Pack.

If the only Pack in town has decided to be a Cub Scout for Boys Pack, then they could even decide to start a Cub Scout for Families Pack. And if they did a decent job, they'd probably steal away the boys in the Cub Scout for Boys pack, but that's not their fault.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But this does not take into account that in many (if not most) areas there will not be enough interested girls to field entire dens and programs (after all they will now be competing with Girl ascouts to draw in girls). So either girls will have to drive farther to find "girl" Boy Scout troops, or they are going to push the it's not fair narrative (it won't be) that they are prevented from just joining their local pack, den or troop, and pressure boy scout troops that were told by BSA they would be allowed to remain single gender to be forced to become coed to accomodate the 2-4 girls at each grade who aren't enough to staff a troop of their own and who shouldn't need to drive a neighborhood or two away to find a girl Boy Scout troop.


Boy scouts should not go coed, especially the way they are proposing. Saying that individual packs and dens will have the option of choosing to remain boy only is a lie and tuey know it. In very short order single gender boy scouting will be over if they go with what BSA is proposing.

I think you are right but for the wrong reason. I think more girls will join cub scouting dens in a co-ed pack, not just two or 4. The girl only dens will be active and fun and well organized and will do neat things, and the boys will be drawn to these dens and want to take part. Pretty soon you will have co ed dens but because the girls were pressured to take in the boys!

You obviouely have very little experience with boys or Boy/Cub Scouts.

If what you are suggesting were even remotely plausible (it is not) we would have already seen boys clamouring to join girl scouts.

I have a lot of experience with boys, and 5 years experience with Cub Scouts.

Kids clamor or are attracted to join groups that seem like they are doing interesting things.

Some girl scout troops manage to do fun, interesting things; but the program really isn't designed well enough to make it easy to do that. Experienced leaders, or those who have gone "rogue", have figured out how to do fun interesting things in GS (instead of following the Journeys blindly and doing the workbooks etc.) but GSUSA certainly isn't making it easier. Cub Scouts mostly aren't clamoring to join Girl Scouts because 1) the program isn't family oriented and so younger brothers are much less likely to be tagging along and 2) the program as it stands just isn't that interesting.

The problem with Girl Scouts isn't the girls. It's that the programming really isn't that great (although good leaders can make it so for sure!)

However -- in my experience, more women than men do a good job of leading a group of kids that aren't their own. I've seen it in Cub Scouts and I've seen it in other groups. Men tend to do better when the kids are middle school aged and up -- exactly the age of a Scout troop. SOME men are great at leading Cub dens. BUT there's a reason why Scouts invited moms to be den mothers.

Give a mom who is good with young kids a decent program, like the Cub Scout program, and she'll do a great job. THe den will be active and vibrant and organized and doing fun stuff, and you bet the girls will be drawn to it. Other parents are not fools, and if someone is doing a good job offering a free program THEY WILL WANT THEIR KIDS IN IT rather than having to offer to run the exact same den/program for their boys, just to have the "same sex" aspect. Trust me. If some mom is running a great Wolf Den for Girls with whittling and campfire building and outdoor cooking and Baloo the Builder and she seems enthusiastic and organized, parents will sign their little boys up for that den in a hot second.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But this does not take into account that in many (if not most) areas there will not be enough interested girls to field entire dens and programs (after all they will now be competing with Girl ascouts to draw in girls). So either girls will have to drive farther to find "girl" Boy Scout troops, or they are going to push the it's not fair narrative (it won't be) that they are prevented from just joining their local pack, den or troop, and pressure boy scout troops that were told by BSA they would be allowed to remain single gender to be forced to become coed to accomodate the 2-4 girls at each grade who aren't enough to staff a troop of their own and who shouldn't need to drive a neighborhood or two away to find a girl Boy Scout troop.


Boy scouts should not go coed, especially the way they are proposing. Saying that individual packs and dens will have the option of choosing to remain boy only is a lie and tuey know it. In very short order single gender boy scouting will be over if they go with what BSA is proposing.

I think you are right but for the wrong reason. I think more girls will join cub scouting dens in a co-ed pack, not just two or 4. The girl only dens will be active and fun and well organized and will do neat things, and the boys will be drawn to these dens and want to take part. Pretty soon you will have co ed dens but because the girls were pressured to take in the boys!

You obviouely have very little experience with boys or Boy/Cub Scouts.

If what you are suggesting were even remotely plausible (it is not) we would have already seen boys clamouring to join girl scouts.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
And somewhere (we all know this will happen) some troop or pack is going to resist making themselves coed, because they were promised by BSA they have the option of remaining single gender. And that girl(s)' familiy(ies) are going to go to the media, and the Boy Scouts and that specific Scout troop in particular is going to get savaged in the media, called sexist, misogynistic, etc, when ll they wanted to do was to continue with and reap the benefits of single gender scouting as they were promised by BSA they would be allowed to do.

Nothing has been decided, but my understanding was what is being proposed would be decided by charter organization -- do you want to have a Cub Scout for Boys Only pack, a Cub Scout for Girls Only Pack, or a Cub Scout for Families pack, with separate Boy and Girl dens.

So in that scenario, the Smithfield Methodist Church could decide to charter a Cub Scout for Familes pack that meets Wednesday nights 6 to 7 PM and includes dinner; whereas the St. Smyrna Baptist Church might decide to have a Cub Scouts for Girls pack meet Tuesday nights because the families there are not interested in Girl Scouts for whatever reason. And over across town, the Smithfield American Legion might have a thriving Cub Scout for Boys pack that leads up to a Boy Scout troop, and they might just decide to stick with that. Younger sisters of the Cubs might put some pressure on that pack to go coed, but there would be two alternatives in town....If the Cub Scout for Families option however proves the most attractive to parents and they manage to provide a fun, thriving program as a result, more and more families would probably be attracted to that pack.

But that is not what is going to happen.

Not every town is like here where there are multiple options for each activities. Our neighborhood has around a dozen boy scout troops within a five minute drive. My home town and many other have one, maaybe two. What you are going to have in many parts of the country is a situation where a girl who wants to be a Boy Scout will need to drive 45 minutes or more to find a troop that accepts girls.

So what are these girls going to do? They are going to fight (and likely take it online, viral or to the media) to fight to force these single gender Boy Cout troops to become coed. Separate but equal will not be equal or fair at all, especially as it takes time to get a critical mass of people to create a program. Tye first time a girl is told they cannot join their local Boy Scout troop or Cub Scout pack and have to drive an hour to find a girls' Boy Scout troop or coed Cub Scout den, there is going to be a huge battle, bigger than what they dealt with on the gay scout issue because BSA is starting off by telling people they can have separate, boy only Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts. Tuey are opening Pandora's box and it is not going to result in the membership bump they are hoping for.

Anonymous wrote:Why not model Brownie/Girl Scouts after Cub Scouts/Boy Scouts?

I was in Brownies and Girl Scouts as a kid and I had fun and earned patches just like the Cub Scouts/Boy Scouts do. Many of our activities were not unlike Cub/Boy Scouts. I know because my sons were both involved in Cub/Boy Scouts.

It has been about 40 years since I was in Girl Scouts so I am not all that familiar with the group today. But I can say that Cub/Boy scouts was wonderful for my boys. I don't think it's necessary to make scouting coed - that would really change the dynamics for the kids.

Girl Scouts is just fine on their own, thankyouverymuch.

Just as when you were a Girl Scout (Brownies are Girl Scouts, unlike Cub Scouts not being Boy Scouts), there are patches to earn and all sorts of activities to do. They have since added "journeys" which are.... fine. Lots of good ideas if the leaders/parents do it, but pretty easy to earn doing only crafty type stuff (which is where a lot of the criticism lately comes from)

Unlike Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts is a much more flexible program. Daisy, Brownie, Junior, Cadette, Senior Ambassador are all aged based. So you move up regardless of what you earn or don't earn.
Within each level, you can do as much or as little as you and the troop would like.
This, of course, leads to a lot of flexibility which can be great, but can also lead to some mismatches in experiences.

As an example of some of the things Girl Scouts do, here are some of the council programs for Girl Scouts of Central Maryland coming up JUST IN SEPTEMBER! All Girl Scouts troops in the area can sign up for these activities. (Most have a small fee)

Chemistry in the Kitchen (open to all levels)
Geocaching Treasure Hunt (for brownies)
Geocaching Treasure Hunge (for older girls)
Make-HER Mondays(Brownies to Cadettes): [activities in the maker lab space]
Aberdeen Proving Ground STEM Day (all levels, also open to Boy Scouts)
Ready, Aim, BullsEye Archery Program (everyone but Daisies)
Marsh Ecology Paddle (Juniors and up)

Add in to that, of course, specific troop activities.

Why not model Brownie/Girl Scouts after Cub Scouts/Boy Scouts?

I was in Brownies and Girl Scouts as a kid and I had fun and earned patches just like the Cub Scouts/Boy Scouts do. Many of our activities were not unlike Cub/Boy Scouts. I know because my sons were both involved in Cub/Boy Scouts.

It has been about 40 years since I was in Girl Scouts so I am not all that familiar with the group today. But I can say that Cub/Boy scouts was wonderful for my boys. I don't think it's necessary to make scouting coed - that would really change the dynamics for the kids.

Anonymous wrote:I wonder why BSA wants to do this? What do they see as the benefit? Are their numbers dropping so significantly that they need to open this up?

Some is probably general social pressure, but a lot is probably also financial. The Mormons have pulled out of supporting older scouts under the guise of developing their own programs more in keeping with their faith. The Knights of Columbus have also pulled support and are encouraging the scout groups they supported to reform as parish troops integrated with youth ministry activities. They need to make up those lost funding sources somehow, so their choices are either to align themselves more closely with Christian/conservative groups again (something they'd been moving away from in expanding their Duty to God activities to include people of all faiths, including those who don't observe any religion, and by becoming more open to gay and transgender members and leaders), or look to broaden their appeal to groups that historically have been turned off by this aspect of scouting. The groups that are going to embrace their move away from organized religion are the same groups that are going to be troubled by the single-gender nature of the organization, so they need to think about how they will respond to it.

Anonymous wrote:But this does not take into account that in many (if not most) areas there will not be enough interested girls to field entire dens and programs (after all they will now be competing with Girl ascouts to draw in girls). So either girls will have to drive farther to find "girl" Boy Scout troops, or they are going to push the it's not fair narrative (it won't be) that they are prevented from just joining their local pack, den or troop, and pressure boy scout troops that were told by BSA they would be allowed to remain single gender to be forced to become coed to accomodate the 2-4 girls at each grade who aren't enough to staff a troop of their own and who shouldn't need to drive a neighborhood or two away to find a girl Boy Scout troop.


Boy scouts should not go coed, especially the way they are proposing. Saying that individual packs and dens will have the option of choosing to remain boy only is a lie and tuey know it. In very short order single gender boy scouting will be over if they go with what BSA is proposing.

I think you are right but for the wrong reason. I think more girls will join cub scouting dens in a co-ed pack, not just two or 4. The girl only dens will be active and fun and well organized and will do neat things, and the boys will be drawn to these dens and want to take part. Pretty soon you will have co ed dens but because the girls were pressured to take in the boys!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
"They" is not referring to Girl Scouts but to those parents pushing to make Boy Scouts coed instead of pushing to make Girl Scouts more adventurous, rugged and focused on outdoor skills.

Hasn't it occurred to you that the parents pushing to make a Cub Scout program available to their daughters as well as their sons might just be looking for a sensible solution that fits their lives?

I have heard of a pack where the boys all meet one night a week for den meetings, and someone takes the girls to a different room and they do similar activities there, under the Learning for Life program. Parent's LOVE the convenience and the girls like the Cub Scout program just as much as the boys do.

Then they should sign up for a coed scout group like Fireside.

Never heard of Fireside, but why reinvent the wheel? If I like the Cub Scout program and think it is pretty good, and think it would be great for my daughter too, I'd like to just start a Cub Scout for Girls den or two in our pack. Makes sense -- my daughter does all the camping and activities, we always have a siblings section for the competitions; the siblings come along on the outdoor trips. -- all the younger sisters are there anyhow. It's not like the pack meeting is in any way a same sex environment.

Why shouldn't BSA take my registration money since it's already basically happening?

Anonymous wrote:
And somewhere (we all know this will happen) some troop or pack is going to resist making themselves coed, because they were promised by BSA they have the option of remaining single gender. And that girl(s)' familiy(ies) are going to go to the media, and the Boy Scouts and that specific Scout troop in particular is going to get savaged in the media, called sexist, misogynistic, etc, when ll they wanted to do was to continue with and reap the benefits of single gender scouting as they were promised by BSA they would be allowed to do.

Nothing has been decided, but my understanding was what is being proposed would be decided by charter organization -- do you want to have a Cub Scout for Boys Only pack, a Cub Scout for Girls Only Pack, or a Cub Scout for Families pack, with separate Boy and Girl dens.

So in that scenario, the Smithfield Methodist Church could decide to charter a Cub Scout for Familes pack that meets Wednesday nights 6 to 7 PM and includes dinner; whereas the St. Smyrna Baptist Church might decide to have a Cub Scouts for Girls pack meet Tuesday nights because the families there are not interested in Girl Scouts for whatever reason. And over across town, the Smithfield American Legion might have a thriving Cub Scout for Boys pack that leads up to a Boy Scout troop, and they might just decide to stick with that. Younger sisters of the Cubs might put some pressure on that pack to go coed, but there would be two alternatives in town....If the Cub Scout for Families option however proves the most attractive to parents and they manage to provide a fun, thriving program as a result, more and more families would probably be attracted to that pack.

Anonymous wrote:I wonder why BSA wants to do this? What do they see as the benefit? Are their numbers dropping so significantly that they need to open this up?

I think it is because the Mormons are leaving to form their own version of Scouting, combined with that girl who did all of the Boy Scputs advancements on her own then went to the media to put pressure on BSA to let her become and Eagle.

After the gay scout debaucle they are terrified of being called anything-ist.

I wonder why BSA wants to do this? What do they see as the benefit? Are their numbers dropping so significantly that they need to open this up?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
"They" is not referring to Girl Scouts but to those parents pushing to make Boy Scouts coed instead of pushing to make Girl Scouts more adventurous, rugged and focused on outdoor skills.

Hasn't it occurred to you that the parents pushing to make a Cub Scout program available to their daughters as well as their sons might just be looking for a sensible solution that fits their lives?

I have heard of a pack where the boys all meet one night a week for den meetings, and someone takes the girls to a different room and they do similar activities there, under the Learning for Life program. Parent's LOVE the convenience and the girls like the Cub Scout program just as much as the boys do.

Then they should sign up for a coed scout group like Fireside.

Pulling from the BSA video, he also pointed out that if they open Cub Scouts to girls they are really going to have to look at opening all the way through Eagle. Then they are going to have to figure out a way to try to keep the single gender scouting in Scouts. They suggested having girl only or boy only troops...separate but equal. But this does not take into account that in many (if not most) areas there will not be enough interested girls to field entire dens and programs (after all they will now be competing with Girl ascouts to draw in girls). So either girls will have to drive farther to find "girl" Boy Scout troops, or they are going to push the it's not fair narrative (it won't be) that they are prevented from just joining their local pack, den or troop, and pressure boy scout troops that were told by BSA they would be allowed to remain single gender to be forced to become coed to accomodate the 2-4 girls at each grade who aren't enough to staff a troop of their own and who shouldn't need to drive a neighborhood or two away to find a girl Boy Scout troop.


Boy scouts should not go coed, especially the way they are proposing. Saying that individual packs and dens will have the option of choosing to remain boy only is a lie and tuey know it. In very short order single gender boy scouting will be over if they go with what BSA is proposing.

Saying all this, although I am VERY against BSA making Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts coed and open to girl membership, I have no objections to them creating a new organization for girls, single gender scouting, with a new name and its own traditions, that follows the advancement model of Boy Scouts. I also am not against expanding Venture Scouting to younger ages.

And somewhere (we all know this will happen) some troop or pack is going to resist making themselves coed, because they were promised by BSA they have the option of remaining single gender. And that girl(s)' familiy(ies) are going to go to the media, and the Boy Scouts and that specific Scout troop in particular is going to get savaged in the media, called sexist, misogynistic, etc, when ll they wanted to do was to continue with and reap the benefits of single gender scouting as they were promised by BSA they would be allowed to do.