Anonymous wrote:The thing about the piece, I think, is that it's written from the point of view of someone who has a broader political perspective than most Americans. Most Americans think this kind of thing will "never" happen here, because they are just naive to the possibilities. I have been talking to friends from Russia and Latin America, and it's obvious to them that we are undergoing some kind of coup without even realizing it.

David Frum had a piece in the Atlantic on much the same issue (last paragraph esp relevant):

"Of course we want to believe that everything will turn out all right. In this instance, however, that lovely and customary American assumption itself qualifies as one of the most serious impediments to everything turning out all right. If the story ends without too much harm to the republic, it won’t be because the dangers were imagined, but because citizens resisted.

The duty to resist should weigh most heavily upon those of us who—because of ideology or partisan affiliation or some other reason—are most predisposed to favor President Trump and his agenda. The years ahead will be years of temptation as well as danger: temptation to seize a rare political opportunity to cram through an agenda that the American majority would normally reject. Who knows when that chance will recur?

A constitutional regime is founded upon the shared belief that the most fundamental commitment of the political system is to the rules. The rules matter more than the outcomes. It’s because the rules matter most that Hillary Clinton conceded the presidency to Trump despite winning millions more votes. It’s because the rules matter most that the giant state of California will accept the supremacy of a federal government that its people rejected by an almost two-to-one margin.

Perhaps the words of a founding father of modern conservatism, Barry Goldwater, offer guidance. “If I should later be attacked for neglecting my constituents’ ‘interests,’?” Goldwater wrote in The Conscience of a Conservative, “I shall reply that I was informed their main interest is liberty and that in that cause I am doing the very best I can.” These words should be kept in mind by those conservatives who think a tax cut or health-care reform a sufficient reward for enabling the slow rot of constitutional government.

...Those citizens who fantasize about defying tyranny from within fortified compounds have never understood how liberty is actually threatened in a modern bureaucratic state: not by diktat and violence, but by the slow, demoralizing process of corruption and deceit. And the way that liberty must be defended is not with amateur firearms, but with an unwearying insistence upon the honesty, integrity, and professionalism of American institutions and those who lead them. We are living through the most dangerous challenge to the free government of the United States that anyone alive has encountered. What happens next is up to you and me. Don’t be afraid. This moment of danger can also be your finest hour as a citizen and an American."

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/03/how-to-build-an-autocracy/513872/

And this is why it matters that Trump fired Sally Yates for following the law. This is why it matters that Spicer threatens the HUNDREDS of people in the State Department signing the dissent memo with losing their position. Because we are not, and should not be, a banana republic where you get fired for voicing defense of our constitution and laws. I fear America is going down a very dark path here... the only thing even close to this in our history would be Nixon's presidency.

The thing about the piece, I think, is that it's written from the point of view of someone who has a broader political perspective than most Americans. Most Americans think this kind of thing will "never" happen here, because they are just naive to the possibilities. I have been talking to friends from Russia and Latin America, and it's obvious to them that we are undergoing some kind of coup without even realizing it.

David Frum had a piece in the Atlantic on much the same issue (last paragraph esp relevant):

"Of course we want to believe that everything will turn out all right. In this instance, however, that lovely and customary American assumption itself qualifies as one of the most serious impediments to everything turning out all right. If the story ends without too much harm to the republic, it won’t be because the dangers were imagined, but because citizens resisted.

The duty to resist should weigh most heavily upon those of us who—because of ideology or partisan affiliation or some other reason—are most predisposed to favor President Trump and his agenda. The years ahead will be years of temptation as well as danger: temptation to seize a rare political opportunity to cram through an agenda that the American majority would normally reject. Who knows when that chance will recur?

A constitutional regime is founded upon the shared belief that the most fundamental commitment of the political system is to the rules. The rules matter more than the outcomes. It’s because the rules matter most that Hillary Clinton conceded the presidency to Trump despite winning millions more votes. It’s because the rules matter most that the giant state of California will accept the supremacy of a federal government that its people rejected by an almost two-to-one margin.

Perhaps the words of a founding father of modern conservatism, Barry Goldwater, offer guidance. “If I should later be attacked for neglecting my constituents’ ‘interests,’?” Goldwater wrote in The Conscience of a Conservative, “I shall reply that I was informed their main interest is liberty and that in that cause I am doing the very best I can.” These words should be kept in mind by those conservatives who think a tax cut or health-care reform a sufficient reward for enabling the slow rot of constitutional government.

...Those citizens who fantasize about defying tyranny from within fortified compounds have never understood how liberty is actually threatened in a modern bureaucratic state: not by diktat and violence, but by the slow, demoralizing process of corruption and deceit. And the way that liberty must be defended is not with amateur firearms, but with an unwearying insistence upon the honesty, integrity, and professionalism of American institutions and those who lead them. We are living through the most dangerous challenge to the free government of the United States that anyone alive has encountered. What happens next is up to you and me. Don’t be afraid. This moment of danger can also be your finest hour as a citizen and an American."

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/03/how-to-build-an-autocracy/513872/

Who is Zunger - for the pp who cannot google

https://www.linkedin.com/in/yonatanzunger

https://yonatanzunger.com/about/

https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/what-things-going-wrong-can-look-like-400f84a0cc3a#.i5xolw5kz - another article from him

Medium is similar to HuffPo if I had to describe it, a place to post essays & articles (some very good, others not so much).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Take eyes off the evidence of KGB executing people who leaked info re Trump. Take eyes off Bandon's NSC machinations. Just a guess.

Anyone else besides Erovinkin?

I think the Russian issue is big here. That conversation was not going well. The Republicans were against him. He has many conflicts of interest.

Now people are discussing a very controversial policy instead of going after him.

There are also the two Russian intelligence officers arrested for treason. Granted, they haven't been executed yet. I'm sure they'll receive the fairest of trials courtesy of Putin. So 3 people formally linked to Trump/election/dossier scandal. But nobody cares because everyone is (rightly) upset about the green card grenade.

Just to follow up on Erovinkin:

"(6) Finally, I want to highlight a story that many people haven’t noticed. On Wednesday, Reuters reported (in great detail) how 19.5% of Rosneft, Russia’s state oil company, has been sold to parties unknown. This was done through a dizzying array of shell companies, so that the most that can be said with certainty now is that the money “paying” for it was originally loaned out to the shell layers by VTB (the government’s official bank), even though it’s highly unclear who, if anyone, would be paying that loan back; and the recipients have been traced as far as some Cayman Islands shell companies.
Why is this interesting? Because the much-maligned Steele Dossier (the one with the golden showers in it) included the statement that Putin had offered Trump 19% of Rosneft if he became president and removed sanctions. The reason this is so interesting is that the dossier said this in July, and the sale didn’t happen until early December. And 19.5% sounds an awful lot like “19% plus a brokerage commission.”"

https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/trial-balloon-for-a-coup-e024990891d5#.nz7eqc9cx

The whole article is worth reading.

I am no conspiracy theorist, but this article is making my heart beat out of my chest.

The Zunger piece is important. All the points made "against" this post, he agrees with. Yes, bigots gonna bigot. Trump is going to do what he was elected to do. But the important question is, what else is happening, and why? Trump/Bannon didn't spell out the bigger game here. If you think he's playing just because he likes to build walls, well, I can't really help you there. Obviously the groundwork is now laid for the executive branch to ignore the judiciary, the press, any politicians who speak out against them... Add to that the delegitimization of the popular vote.

America, wake up. This is not partisan! This is not a policy debate as usual.

The ZUnger piece is not well sourced. What publication is this/ Who is Zunger? Why should anyone believe this?

The piece is very well sourced, what are you talking about.

I believe they have already been doing that for longer than a year now to get the police force and military solidly on their side. They need to convince the trained folks with guns that the "people" are the enemy and only Trump and his folks really understand and appreciate them so that when Bannon says shoot, they will. I pray our military is smarter than this.

Talk to your friends and families in military and law enforcement.

Anonymous wrote:I hope I'm just being paranoid but I'm starting to fear that Bannon is going to orchestrate some horrific event in the US (like an attack on one of the many protests), call it a terrorist attack and justify it to use extreme military measures.

oops, should read -- "use it to justify"

Anonymous wrote:I hope I'm just being paranoid but I'm starting to fear that Bannon is going to orchestrate some horrific event in the US (like an attack on one of the many protests), call it a terrorist attack and justify it to use extreme military measures.

He is extremely dangerous to this country.

I do agree that there's a smoke and mirrors effect happening.

I hope I'm just being paranoid but I'm starting to fear that Bannon is going to orchestrate some horrific event in the US (like an attack on one of the many protests), call it a terrorist attack and justify it to use extreme military measures.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Take eyes off the evidence of KGB executing people who leaked info re Trump. Take eyes off Bandon's NSC machinations. Just a guess.

Anyone else besides Erovinkin?

I think the Russian issue is big here. That conversation was not going well. The Republicans were against him. He has many conflicts of interest.

Now people are discussing a very controversial policy instead of going after him.

There are also the two Russian intelligence officers arrested for treason. Granted, they haven't been executed yet. I'm sure they'll receive the fairest of trials courtesy of Putin. So 3 people formally linked to Trump/election/dossier scandal. But nobody cares because everyone is (rightly) upset about the green card grenade.

Just to follow up on Erovinkin:

"(6) Finally, I want to highlight a story that many people haven’t noticed. On Wednesday, Reuters reported (in great detail) how 19.5% of Rosneft, Russia’s state oil company, has been sold to parties unknown. This was done through a dizzying array of shell companies, so that the most that can be said with certainty now is that the money “paying” for it was originally loaned out to the shell layers by VTB (the government’s official bank), even though it’s highly unclear who, if anyone, would be paying that loan back; and the recipients have been traced as far as some Cayman Islands shell companies.
Why is this interesting? Because the much-maligned Steele Dossier (the one with the golden showers in it) included the statement that Putin had offered Trump 19% of Rosneft if he became president and removed sanctions. The reason this is so interesting is that the dossier said this in July, and the sale didn’t happen until early December. And 19.5% sounds an awful lot like “19% plus a brokerage commission.”"

https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/trial-balloon-for-a-coup-e024990891d5#.nz7eqc9cx

The whole article is worth reading.

I am no conspiracy theorist, but this article is making my heart beat out of my chest.

The Zunger piece is important. All the points made "against" this post, he agrees with. Yes, bigots gonna bigot. Trump is going to do what he was elected to do. But the important question is, what else is happening, and why? Trump/Bannon didn't spell out the bigger game here. If you think he's playing just because he likes to build walls, well, I can't really help you there. Obviously the groundwork is now laid for the executive branch to ignore the judiciary, the press, any politicians who speak out against them... Add to that the delegitimization of the popular vote.

America, wake up. This is not partisan! This is not a policy debate as usual.

The ZUnger piece is not well sourced. What publication is this/ Who is Zunger? Why should anyone believe this?

It's well-sourced. You just don't want to admit you've elected somebody who is actively moving us to a fascist dictatorship.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Take eyes off the evidence of KGB executing people who leaked info re Trump. Take eyes off Bandon's NSC machinations. Just a guess.

Anyone else besides Erovinkin?

I think the Russian issue is big here. That conversation was not going well. The Republicans were against him. He has many conflicts of interest.

Now people are discussing a very controversial policy instead of going after him.

There are also the two Russian intelligence officers arrested for treason. Granted, they haven't been executed yet. I'm sure they'll receive the fairest of trials courtesy of Putin. So 3 people formally linked to Trump/election/dossier scandal. But nobody cares because everyone is (rightly) upset about the green card grenade.

Just to follow up on Erovinkin:

"(6) Finally, I want to highlight a story that many people haven’t noticed. On Wednesday, Reuters reported (in great detail) how 19.5% of Rosneft, Russia’s state oil company, has been sold to parties unknown. This was done through a dizzying array of shell companies, so that the most that can be said with certainty now is that the money “paying” for it was originally loaned out to the shell layers by VTB (the government’s official bank), even though it’s highly unclear who, if anyone, would be paying that loan back; and the recipients have been traced as far as some Cayman Islands shell companies.
Why is this interesting? Because the much-maligned Steele Dossier (the one with the golden showers in it) included the statement that Putin had offered Trump 19% of Rosneft if he became president and removed sanctions. The reason this is so interesting is that the dossier said this in July, and the sale didn’t happen until early December. And 19.5% sounds an awful lot like “19% plus a brokerage commission.”"

https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/trial-balloon-for-a-coup-e024990891d5#.nz7eqc9cx

The whole article is worth reading.

I am no conspiracy theorist, but this article is making my heart beat out of my chest.

The Zunger piece is important. All the points made "against" this post, he agrees with. Yes, bigots gonna bigot. Trump is going to do what he was elected to do. But the important question is, what else is happening, and why? Trump/Bannon didn't spell out the bigger game here. If you think he's playing just because he likes to build walls, well, I can't really help you there. Obviously the groundwork is now laid for the executive branch to ignore the judiciary, the press, any politicians who speak out against them... Add to that the delegitimization of the popular vote.

America, wake up. This is not partisan! This is not a policy debate as usual.

The ZUnger piece is not well sourced. What publication is this/ Who is Zunger? Why should anyone believe this?

Um, tell me which point is not well sourced. None of the things he is talking about is exactly secret.

I've been thinking about this thread all morning. Anymore sources than what has been previously leaked? My brain is trying to hope this is more fake news.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Take eyes off the evidence of KGB executing people who leaked info re Trump. Take eyes off Bandon's NSC machinations. Just a guess.

Anyone else besides Erovinkin?

I think the Russian issue is big here. That conversation was not going well. The Republicans were against him. He has many conflicts of interest.

Now people are discussing a very controversial policy instead of going after him.

There are also the two Russian intelligence officers arrested for treason. Granted, they haven't been executed yet. I'm sure they'll receive the fairest of trials courtesy of Putin. So 3 people formally linked to Trump/election/dossier scandal. But nobody cares because everyone is (rightly) upset about the green card grenade.

Just to follow up on Erovinkin:

"(6) Finally, I want to highlight a story that many people haven’t noticed. On Wednesday, Reuters reported (in great detail) how 19.5% of Rosneft, Russia’s state oil company, has been sold to parties unknown. This was done through a dizzying array of shell companies, so that the most that can be said with certainty now is that the money “paying” for it was originally loaned out to the shell layers by VTB (the government’s official bank), even though it’s highly unclear who, if anyone, would be paying that loan back; and the recipients have been traced as far as some Cayman Islands shell companies.
Why is this interesting? Because the much-maligned Steele Dossier (the one with the golden showers in it) included the statement that Putin had offered Trump 19% of Rosneft if he became president and removed sanctions. The reason this is so interesting is that the dossier said this in July, and the sale didn’t happen until early December. And 19.5% sounds an awful lot like “19% plus a brokerage commission.”"

https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/trial-balloon-for-a-coup-e024990891d5#.nz7eqc9cx

The whole article is worth reading.

I am no conspiracy theorist, but this article is making my heart beat out of my chest.

The Zunger piece is important. All the points made "against" this post, he agrees with. Yes, bigots gonna bigot. Trump is going to do what he was elected to do. But the important question is, what else is happening, and why? Trump/Bannon didn't spell out the bigger game here. If you think he's playing just because he likes to build walls, well, I can't really help you there. Obviously the groundwork is now laid for the executive branch to ignore the judiciary, the press, any politicians who speak out against them... Add to that the delegitimization of the popular vote.

America, wake up. This is not partisan! This is not a policy debate as usual.

The ZUnger piece is not well sourced. What publication is this/ Who is Zunger? Why should anyone believe this?

If this was an attempt to create a shock event, it backfired. It created legitimacy for resisting the Trump agenda.

Anonymous wrote:
^ Yes. There aren't many like that around anymore.

Until I see Republicans reaching across the aisle to defend the Constitution, I'd say we're pretty much doomed.