Anonymous wrote:OP here. I can't address everything at once, but I would appreciate if you left dw out of it and focused the comments towards me. It's very easy to take one example out of context and completely judge a person for it.

My examples was just to give you insight and context into my thought process and frustrations I was dealing with. DW is a great person at the end of the day and she doesn't deserve any of the negative comments about her.

These were my decisions that led to where we are today and I need to repair what I broke.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

First, OP's cheating isn't abuse. People need to stop throwing that word around. (It's like "infidelity" or "affair". Now there's "financial infidelity" too! Is that "abuse"?) It cheapens the seriousness of abuse. What he did may have been mean or thoughtless or selfish. It may have made his wife feel bad. But calling it "abuse" is ridiculous.

Second, seeking validation outside of the marriage is pretty normal. Lots of people want to feel the excitement of new relationships, of relationships not bogged down in the day-to-day. Totally normal. Would have been good for OP to avoid going to another woman for that validation and excitement and find a way to get that in his marriage. That's obviously harder to do, but if you've made the vow, it's the right thing to do. But to suggest that he's some abusive monster for doing it is over the top.

Third, PP is right that, in the end, it comes down to a decision on both sides as to whether it is worth the work. OP can decide whether he wants to stand by if his wife is taking forever to get over it, and his wife can decide whether she finds it worth her time and energy to do the work to get over it.

Finally, I think PP's defensiveness is blinding her to the fact that the cheating may, in fact, be about things missing from the marriage. Might not be anyone's fault, but I do believe that working on understanding what was missing can help strengthen the marriage. But for that to happen, the cheated upon person has to be willing to get over it.

This seems to be your argument -- that labeling what you view as a lesser transgression (infidelity) with the label of what you view as a more serious transgression (abuse) cheapens the label of abuse.

I just want you to know that your line of thinking has been applied to many behaviors that we now label as abuse. Getting punched in the face by your husband was abuse, but an open-handed slap or a punch that left no mark was not. Getting yelled at and having plates broken was not abuse because the perpetrator didn't touch the victim. Many people argued that there was no such thing as emotional abuse and that labeling "relationship problems" as "abuse" was to cheapen the value of the word abuse. Many people argued that including date rape in the definition of rape cheapens the word rape.

I don't agree with this line of arguing.

Abuse is a form of control by one partner over another. Consistent lies, secrecy and manipulation are forms of emotional abuse because they take away agency from the victim. By hiding the real facts of the relationship, the victim is unable to make decisions about her life and participation in the relationship that the perpetrator disagrees with. Infidelity is also abusive in the sense that in a marriage (usually) the spouse has consented to sex on the basis of monogamy. When the cheating spouse breaks this vow of monogamy and continues to have sex with the victim spouse, the perpetrator is having non-consensual sex. That's rape. Although the OP didn't go this far, the contract of marriage assumes certain obligations in terms of time and attention toward the other partner and away from others. It's that bargain that the OP has broken. That's an abuse of trust, even if it didn't involve sex.

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I can't address everything at once, but I would appreciate if you left dw out of it and focused the comments towards me. It's very easy to take one example out of context and completely judge a person for it.

My examples was just to give you insight and context into my thought process and frustrations I was dealing with. DW is a great person at the end of the day and she doesn't deserve any of the negative comments about her.

These were my decisions that led to where we are today and I need to repair what I broke.

Anonymous wrote:

First, OP's cheating isn't abuse. People need to stop throwing that word around. (It's like "infidelity" or "affair". Now there's "financial infidelity" too! Is that "abuse"?) It cheapens the seriousness of abuse. What he did may have been mean or thoughtless or selfish. It may have made his wife feel bad. But calling it "abuse" is ridiculous.

Second, seeking validation outside of the marriage is pretty normal. Lots of people want to feel the excitement of new relationships, of relationships not bogged down in the day-to-day. Totally normal. Would have been good for OP to avoid going to another woman for that validation and excitement and find a way to get that in his marriage. That's obviously harder to do, but if you've made the vow, it's the right thing to do. But to suggest that he's some abusive monster for doing it is over the top.

Third, PP is right that, in the end, it comes down to a decision on both sides as to whether it is worth the work. OP can decide whether he wants to stand by if his wife is taking forever to get over it, and his wife can decide whether she finds it worth her time and energy to do the work to get over it.

Finally, I think PP's defensiveness is blinding her to the fact that the cheating may, in fact, be about things missing from the marriage. Might not be anyone's fault, but I do believe that working on understanding what was missing can help strengthen the marriage. But for that to happen, the cheated upon person has to be willing to get over it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since no one has mentioned love languages yet, I'll be the one to do it.

OP, have you read Gary Chapman's book The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love That Lasts?

It sounds like your love language -- and maybe your therapist's? -- may be acts of service. It seems that you have done a lot, whether referred to as helping or as sharing responsibilities, yet it doesn't make your wife feel loved.

She may have a different love language such as needing words of affirmation or craving physical touch. Praise of all you love about her, or a massage each day, may mean more to her than all the chores you do around the house.

Or, she made need to know that she can trust her husband to not reach out to an ex and rekindle feelings by flirting.

I'm sure this dude wouldn't be cool if he found flirty exchanges between his wife and her ex. This is a big deal. Period.

Oh, it is just flirting. Flirty exchange. Nothing actually happened. OP, did you WANT it to happen? if she'd been next door would it have happened?

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone else think maybe the wife has PPD? She's losing her shit over some long distance online flirting, having trouble waking up despite not doing night feedings, plus other examples op gave of wife seeming unmotivated.

Is your wife a SAHM op?

Or maybe OP is a dick. He's in here, asking for someone to tell him how to make amends, while simultaneously dodging/denying responsibility for his actions. And you're helping, PP.

Step one: Acknowledge, fully, that your actions caused her pain. It wasn't "just" texting, or you would've told your wife about it in the first place. Being sneaky and devious kills trust. No buts, no "if you had been less... I wouldn't have had to..." blameshifting, just own the suck. All of it. Quit using minimizing language and trying to make it look less crappy than it was. That's not a sincere apology, and she'll see right through it. If you're not going to take full responsibility for your actions, don't bother "apologizing" because you're not really sorry.

Step two: Apologize. Not "I'm sorry if..." Not "I'm sorry I hurt you, but you also hurt me." Not "I'm so sorry and I feel so awful and I suck and poor me please pity me." An actual apology. I am sorry that I did the messed up thing I did, and I understand how my actions have hurt you.

Step three: Amends. Amends are about making it right. So figure out just what, exactly, you messed up. You diverted your time and energy away from your partner (and new baby). Find ways to pay it back. You took away her ability to trust you. Man, that's shit. You're going to have to be 100% transparent going forward, and don't ask her to trust you at all. Just be trustworthy. Trust is about being consistent; this will take time. Get to the heart of why she's hurt. Really listen to what she says, and take action to heal those wounds.

Step four: Action. Do. Do more. This is not about saying you're sorry (which you don't really even seem to be, so this whole post may be moot). This is about showing you're sorry, and doing the work to bridge the gap you caused between you and your spouse. Whatever "helping" you thought you were doing earlier? Triple it.

And if you're not willing to do these things, because you're such a self-absorbed, myopic jerk (and I think this is likely, given both your actions and your denials/dismissive language about them even here), just tell her. You owe her honesty.

She's probably already aware that you're not partner material, and that's why she's on her way out.

Whatever you do, don't go down that road PP suggested, wherein you minimize the damage you've caused, and try to blameshift and make it about something else (her mental health). Women are culturally programmed to believe it's all our fault anyway, and if you exploit that to cover your own ass, you are the lowest of the low.

Could be. Or could be the OP's wife is the dick. He did the finger feeding. (Was she pumping OP? Did she have to do overnight pumping even if you did the actual feedings?) He took care of the overnight feedings while working full time. He's taking care of household and baby stuff, at a half or more rate, so I'm not buying the immaturity or outrage people are giving him. I'm guessing, and it's just conjecture at this point because op hasn't said, but I'm guessing he views household and baby stuff as DW's job because she's a SAHM and he has an outside the home job. That would mean him doing half the work is supporting her in her job, and helping her a lot. Not that he views changing an occasional diaper as a grand gesture. It sounds like he's trying to be supportive and helpful, and she's taking and taking, and he had a little escapism. It was crappy but it wasn't even sexting. Just a little online flirting. Jesus Christ. He didn't cheat. He didn't even get into dirty talk. I can't be outraged on the wife's behalf. She sounds cuckoo bananas. Having had a baby recently, she may very well be. Especially if she quit her job to do this, and feels isolated being stuck at home with a baby and threatened because her DH is feeling the need to escape. I remember feeling shell shocked after my second when I had PPD and decided to SAH. It wasn't as fun as I expected and I shut down, sort of like how the op is describing his wife.

He didn't cheat. He had a flirtation. It's not good, but it's not divorce worthy under normal circumstances.

Anonymous wrote:I am the only one who finds all of this exhausting?

I mean, seriously, OP on line flirted with an ex who was no where near him physically. Would I be pissed if my wife did that? Of course. Would I threaten to rip up the marriage, disrupt the kids home, consider myself a cheated-on spouse? Require years of therapy, counselling? No.

Good grief - people are human. OP made a mistake, pretty basic one at that. Years of purgatory seem dramatic. Moveon.com and get back to life already. Who has time for this much drama over on line flirting?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since no one has mentioned love languages yet, I'll be the one to do it.

OP, have you read Gary Chapman's book The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love That Lasts?

It sounds like your love language -- and maybe your therapist's? -- may be acts of service. It seems that you have done a lot, whether referred to as helping or as sharing responsibilities, yet it doesn't make your wife feel loved.

She may have a different love language such as needing words of affirmation or craving physical touch. Praise of all you love about her, or a massage each day, may mean more to her than all the chores you do around the house.

Or, she made need to know that she can trust her husband to not reach out to an ex and rekindle feelings by flirting.

I'm sure this dude wouldn't be cool if he found flirty exchanges between his wife and her ex. This is a big deal. Period.

Oh, it is just flirting. Flirty exchange. Nothing actually happened. OP, did you WANT it to happen? if she'd been next door would it have happened?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since no one has mentioned love languages yet, I'll be the one to do it.

OP, have you read Gary Chapman's book The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love That Lasts?

It sounds like your love language -- and maybe your therapist's? -- may be acts of service. It seems that you have done a lot, whether referred to as helping or as sharing responsibilities, yet it doesn't make your wife feel loved.

She may have a different love language such as needing words of affirmation or craving physical touch. Praise of all you love about her, or a massage each day, may mean more to her than all the chores you do around the house.

Or, she made need to know that she can trust her husband to not reach out to an ex and rekindle feelings by flirting.

I'm sure this dude wouldn't be cool if he found flirty exchanges between his wife and her ex. This is a big deal. Period.

Anonymous wrote:Since no one has mentioned love languages yet, I'll be the one to do it.

OP, have you read Gary Chapman's book The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love That Lasts?

It sounds like your love language -- and maybe your therapist's? -- may be acts of service. It seems that you have done a lot, whether referred to as helping or as sharing responsibilities, yet it doesn't make your wife feel loved.

She may have a different love language such as needing words of affirmation or craving physical touch. Praise of all you love about her, or a massage each day, may mean more to her than all the chores you do around the house.

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone else think maybe the wife has PPD? She's losing her shit over some long distance online flirting, having trouble waking up despite not doing night feedings, plus other examples op gave of wife seeming unmotivated.

Is your wife a SAHM op?

Or maybe OP is a dick. He's in here, asking for someone to tell him how to make amends, while simultaneously dodging/denying responsibility for his actions. And you're helping, PP.

Step one: Acknowledge, fully, that your actions caused her pain. It wasn't "just" texting, or you would've told your wife about it in the first place. Being sneaky and devious kills trust. No buts, no "if you had been less... I wouldn't have had to..." blameshifting, just own the suck. All of it. Quit using minimizing language and trying to make it look less crappy than it was. That's not a sincere apology, and she'll see right through it. If you're not going to take full responsibility for your actions, don't bother "apologizing" because you're not really sorry.

Step two: Apologize. Not "I'm sorry if..." Not "I'm sorry I hurt you, but you also hurt me." Not "I'm so sorry and I feel so awful and I suck and poor me please pity me." An actual apology. I am sorry that I did the messed up thing I did, and I understand how my actions have hurt you.

Step three: Amends. Amends are about making it right. So figure out just what, exactly, you messed up. You diverted your time and energy away from your partner (and new baby). Find ways to pay it back. You took away her ability to trust you. Man, that's shit. You're going to have to be 100% transparent going forward, and don't ask her to trust you at all. Just be trustworthy. Trust is about being consistent; this will take time. Get to the heart of why she's hurt. Really listen to what she says, and take action to heal those wounds.

Step four: Action. Do. Do more. This is not about saying you're sorry (which you don't really even seem to be, so this whole post may be moot). This is about showing you're sorry, and doing the work to bridge the gap you caused between you and your spouse. Whatever "helping" you thought you were doing earlier? Triple it.

And if you're not willing to do these things, because you're such a self-absorbed, myopic jerk (and I think this is likely, given both your actions and your denials/dismissive language about them even here), just tell her. You owe her honesty.

She's probably already aware that you're not partner material, and that's why she's on her way out.

Whatever you do, don't go down that road PP suggested, wherein you minimize the damage you've caused, and try to blameshift and make it about something else (her mental health). Women are culturally programmed to believe it's all our fault anyway, and if you exploit that to cover your own ass, you are the lowest of the low.