Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Re asking saints to intercede - Why not just go right to the top?

Why do you ask people to pray for you? Why not just do it all yourself?

When someone offers to pray for me, I say "Don't you dare! Keep your silly prayers to yourself! I only deal with God and don't want to be bothered by the likes of you!"

Wow, you must have lots of friends.

I think pp was kidding. People who value prayer usually welcome all the prayers they can get. In the case of Catholics, they can pay to have whole groups of monks pray for them or can buy indulgences to shorten a loved one's time in Purgatory.

The last sentence here is not true at all and sounds like it came straight out of anti-Catholic materials.

Indulgences have not been outright "bought" since the 1500's. These days people make charitable contributions, for instance to monasteries or convents, so the brothers or sisters will pray for your loved one and then use the money given for upkeep or some other worthy cause.

Many Catholics still use the terminology "buying" indulgences, because there is a monetary cost involved and you do get something back for your contribution. The monks and nuns promise to pray based on a "suggested contribution." http://www.stjudemonastery.org/enrollments/

I have been in Protestant churches where the minister includes those who have donated to a particular charity in the prayers the congregation says. It is common in most Christian churches to pray for others.

What is described above is a little different fom an indulgence, which is specifically for giving dead loved ones an added boost to shorten their stay in purgatory and get into heaven. Catholics believe in purgatory, but other Christians don't. Family members can pray on their own, without making a monetary contribution, but the indulgence system means that others, who have a spcial relationship with god, are praying too.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re asking saints to intercede - Why not just go right to the top?

Why do you ask people to pray for you? Why not just do it all yourself?

When someone offers to pray for me, I say "Don't you dare! Keep your silly prayers to yourself! I only deal with God and don't want to be bothered by the likes of you!"

Wow, you must have lots of friends.

I think pp was kidding. People who value prayer usually welcome all the prayers they can get. In the case of Catholics, they can pay to have whole groups of monks pray for them or can buy indulgences to shorten a loved one's time in Purgatory.

The last sentence here is not true at all and sounds like it came straight out of anti-Catholic materials.

Indulgences have not been outright "bought" since the 1500's. These days people make charitable contributions, for instance to monasteries or convents, so the brothers or sisters will pray for your loved one and then use the money given for upkeep or some other worthy cause.

Many Catholics still use the terminology "buying" indulgences, because there is a monetary cost involved and you do get something back for your contribution. The monks and nuns promise to pray based on a "suggested contribution." http://www.stjudemonastery.org/enrollments/

I have been in Protestant churches where the minister includes those who have donated to a particular charity in the prayers the congregation says. It is common in most Christian churches to pray for others.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re asking saints to intercede - Why not just go right to the top?

Why do you ask people to pray for you? Why not just do it all yourself?

When someone offers to pray for me, I say "Don't you dare! Keep your silly prayers to yourself! I only deal with God and don't want to be bothered by the likes of you!"

Wow, you must have lots of friends.

I think pp was kidding. People who value prayer usually welcome all the prayers they can get. In the case of Catholics, they can pay to have whole groups of monks pray for them or can buy indulgences to shorten a loved one's time in Purgatory.

The last sentence here is not true at all and sounds like it came straight out of anti-Catholic materials.

Indulgences have not been outright "bought" since the 1500's. These days people make charitable contributions, for instance to monasteries or convents, so the brothers or sisters will pray for your loved one and then use the money given for upkeep or some other worthy cause.

Many Catholics still use the terminology "buying" indulgences, because there is a monetary cost involved and you do get something back for your contribution. The monks and nuns promise to pray based on a "suggested contribution." http://www.stjudemonastery.org/enrollments/

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re asking saints to intercede - Why not just go right to the top?

Why do you ask people to pray for you? Why not just do it all yourself?

When someone offers to pray for me, I say "Don't you dare! Keep your silly prayers to yourself! I only deal with God and don't want to be bothered by the likes of you!"

Wow, you must have lots of friends.

I think pp was kidding. People who value prayer usually welcome all the prayers they can get. In the case of Catholics, they can pay to have whole groups of monks pray for them or can buy indulgences to shorten a loved one's time in Purgatory.

The last sentence here is not true at all and sounds like it came straight out of anti-Catholic materials.

Thank you to all of you who have posted replies on this thread. I am not the OP, but I learned quite a bit from this discussion. It answered a lot of questions that I had.

I particularly appreciate the way that most of the discussion was very civil and kept to the topic. Among the crazies, there are some very smart and thoughtful people on DCUM.

"Many people do not "choose" to be Christians - they are born into Christian families and taught at a young age to believe certain things. They may adapt those beliefs as they get older and may stop believing in hell or god or Jesus as the son of god. They may focus on Jesus' message of love and disregard or minimize the punishment that awaits for those who do not believe in him. But that doesn't change the beliefs of Christianity."

PP: I was responding to this from the previous poster: "Perhaps without the threat of eternal damnation,[b] people would feel freer to develop a special fondness for and connection with other historical figures, instead of choosing Jesus, who though he may have a powerful message of love, has an even more powerful punishment if you don't accept what he offers."

Yes, your are right that people are born into Christian families and taught certain beliefs. But as someone who has taught catechism, I assure you that kids do choose. They choose in their minds and hearts and while they they are living with their parents, they may participate in the religion's practices, but whether they continue when they leave home is when the real choice is made.

Yes, there are people who are worried about hell and eternal damnation. I am not contradicting the teaching. But I do not think that the threat of eternal damnation is the main impetus behind being a practicing Christian for most of us. The message of love is much more powerful and central to people's choice to continue or not.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re asking saints to intercede - Why not just go right to the top?

Why do you ask people to pray for you? Why not just do it all yourself?

When someone offers to pray for me, I say "Don't you dare! Keep your silly prayers to yourself! I only deal with God and don't want to be bothered by the likes of you!"

Wow, you must have lots of friends.

I think pp was kidding. People who value prayer usually welcome all the prayers they can get. In the case of Catholics, they can pay to have whole groups of monks pray for them or can buy indulgences to shorten a loved one's time in Purgatory.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re asking saints to intercede - Why not just go right to the top?

Why do you ask people to pray for you? Why not just do it all yourself?

When someone offers to pray for me, I say "Don't you dare! Keep your silly prayers to yourself! I only deal with God and don't want to be bothered by the likes of you!"

Wow, you must have lots of friends.

Anonymous wrote:PP Catholic here. Catholicism has a history of hermits that have left behind the rules and scandals. Until I started meeting evangelical Christians, I have never heard about Jesus being one's personal savior, because as you noted, Jesus came to save all of us. Nor was hell always considered sure: because Jesus was the savior (from sin), in the Catholic church you could confess your sins and be forgiven. In Catholicism, there is Purgatory or Limbo where further reflection and purification of one's eternal soul can take place. This is why we pray for the dead and why we ask the saints to pray also for the souls of the dead.

In the past 60 years or so, I have heard much more about eternal damnation from evangelical Christians than in Catholic teachings. Protestant religions informed by Calvinism makes a very harsh distinction between those of the "elect" who will go to heaven.

Jesus says "Follow me". Jesus has saved us, but we have free will to follow or reject God. Your eternal life is important,but you have to work on this one on earth.

And of course, there are others who believe in different religions and they are not choosing Christianity because of a fear of eternal damnation. I think people chose to be Christians because of the Jesus' message of love.

There are other figures such as Buddha. Confucius, Mohammed, Hillel, Guru Nanek and others who are all teachers in their own right and that people admire and follow in their own faith.

Having been raised Catholic, the message of eternal damnation was vey clear as was the message of the various things you could (or must) do to avoid it. The message may have been delivered differently from the way the evangelicals did it, but the ultimate message was the same - to benefit from God's grace, you needed to follow God's rules. The reward is heaven and punishment is hell.

Many people do not "choose" to be Christians - they are born into Christian families and taught at a young age to believe certain things. They may adapt those beliefs as they get older and may stop believing in hell or god or Jesus as the son of god. They may focus on Jesus' message of love and disregard or minimize the punishment that awaits for those who do not believe in him. But that doesn't change the beliefs of Christianity.

PP Catholic here. Catholicism has a history of hermits that have left behind the rules and scandals. Until I started meeting evangelical Christians, I have never heard about Jesus being one's personal savior, because as you noted, Jesus came to save all of us. Nor was hell always considered sure: because Jesus was the savior (from sin), in the Catholic church you could confess your sins and be forgiven. In Catholicism, there is Purgatory or Limbo where further reflection and purification of one's eternal soul can take place. This is why we pray for the dead and why we ask the saints to pray also for the souls of the dead.

In the past 60 years or so, I have heard much more about eternal damnation from evangelical Christians than in Catholic teachings. Protestant religions informed by Calvinism makes a very harsh distinction between those of the "elect" who will go to heaven.

Jesus says "Follow me". Jesus has saved us, but we have free will to follow or reject God. Your eternal life is important,but you have to work on this one on earth.

And of course, there are others who believe in different religions and they are not choosing Christianity because of a fear of eternal damnation. I think people chose to be Christians because of the Jesus' message of love.

There are other figures such as Buddha. Confucius, Mohammed, Hillel, Guru Nanek and others who are all teachers in their own right and that people admire and follow in their own faith.

Anonymous wrote:Who says that Catholics have no real faith in Christ? Jesus Christ is at the center of Catholic faith as the incarnation of God on earth.

Saints may be dead physically, but Catholics believe that our souls are eternal. All people on earth are called to be holy. When you are striving to follow a path, it is helpful to have others to inspire you, teach you and lead you. That is why we have saints: to guide, teach, lead and inspire. They were special people during their lifetimes. This is why people have favorite saints: because there is something about that person that you can connect with and will help you on your spiritual path towards holiness. Holiness in this case is following the teachings of Jesus Christ. We are not worshipping dead people.

Jesus is approachable. Think of how many times people connect with his human side. "Jesus is my personal Savior." Emphasis on the word personal. But Catholics have an intimate relationship to Jesus by receiving communion. "The Eucharist is the source and summit of Christian life" per the definition in the Catholic catechism. OP: it is not about the saints.

But going back to saints, there is an important cultural aspect to learning about saints. Saints, because of how they lived their lives, may come to represent certain qualities or values or lived in certain places and so have cultural resonance and presence.

The United Church of Christ (the former Congregationalists) have been posting banners on their church lawns which say "God is Still Speaking". The first time I saw it I agreed. The Catholic church believes that God is still speaking: through the Holy Spirit, through the lives of new saints and through the action of our own lives and our connection to Jesus Christ.

Catholicism is a religion that is based on mysticism. According to the Oxford Dictionary, mysticism is:
1.belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender.

Most people are not drawn to seeking out mystical connections. It is tough being Catholic these days.
Lots of people get caught up in the noise, the scandals, the exertion of psychological power by the clergy. It is sad, but it happens and people are hurt and damaged. Peace.

Perhaps you could just be a mystic and leave the Catholic rules and the scandals, etc. out of it.

As for people thinking of Jesus as a "personal" savior -- he's also the savior of all humankind, according to Christianity, and if he's not accepted, the consequences are horrible and eternal. It's no wonder many people accept him, considering the only ohter horrible alternative they think is available to them. Perhaps without the threat of eternal damnation, people would feel freer to develop a special fondness for and connection with other historical figures, instead of choosing Jesus, who though he may have a powerful message of love, has an even more powerful punishment if you don't accept what he offers.

PP Catholic here. Yes, I do believe. My whole family has been trained in science and a couple are science teachers. We believe in evolution, scientific method, repeatability of experiments, modern medicine. However, some things are not explanable. Spiritual practice and religious experience with scientific work are not separate, but part of life. I was raised Catholic, but I was never pressured to stay Catholic.

I believe in God and I do not think this is coming from a bunch of endorphins in my brain. There are things that have confirmed a divine presence in my life during my entire lifetime. And yes, I have had doubts and questions. And no, I don't think asking Jesus to help me get a strike when I go bowling is how it operates. It often comes down to two prayers: 'how you want me to approach this' and 'Thy will be done.'

I met Mother Teresa many years ago and she had an amazing aura about her that was beyond human. But she is not the only one. There are holy special people among us and if you think about it, you've met them. That is what saints are: not perfect, but special human beings.

With the advent of science and easy access to information about how our world works, do you really believe in this stuff? I mean, really? You don't think it all seems strange? I know you've been normalized since birth not to feel this way. Anyway, carry on with your discussion.

Who says that Catholics have no real faith in Christ? Jesus Christ is at the center of Catholic faith as the incarnation of God on earth.

Saints may be dead physically, but Catholics believe that our souls are eternal. All people on earth are called to be holy. When you are striving to follow a path, it is helpful to have others to inspire you, teach you and lead you. That is why we have saints: to guide, teach, lead and inspire. They were special people during their lifetimes. This is why people have favorite saints: because there is something about that person that you can connect with and will help you on your spiritual path towards holiness. Holiness in this case is following the teachings of Jesus Christ. We are not worshipping dead people.

Jesus is approachable. Think of how many times people connect with his human side. "Jesus is my personal Savior." Emphasis on the word personal. But Catholics have an intimate relationship to Jesus by receiving communion. "The Eucharist is the source and summit of Christian life" per the definition in the Catholic catechism. OP: it is not about the saints.

But going back to saints, there is an important cultural aspect to learning about saints. Saints, because of how they lived their lives, may come to represent certain qualities or values or lived in certain places and so have cultural resonance and presence.

The United Church of Christ (the former Congregationalists) have been posting banners on their church lawns which say "God is Still Speaking". The first time I saw it I agreed. The Catholic church believes that God is still speaking: through the Holy Spirit, through the lives of new saints and through the action of our own lives and our connection to Jesus Christ.

Catholicism is a religion that is based on mysticism. According to the Oxford Dictionary, mysticism is:
1.belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender.

Most people are not drawn to seeking out mystical connections. It is tough being Catholic these days.
Lots of people get caught up in the noise, the scandals, the exertion of psychological power by the clergy. It is sad, but it happens and people are hurt and damaged. Peace.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re asking saints to intercede - Why not just go right to the top?

Saints led holy lives and are examples for the church. They are human. They are more approachable.

This is a staggering statement. Christ is God made man. He came to Earth to identify with us and us with Him. Hebrews 4:15 says he is our great high priest who is able "to sympathize with our weaknesses." Christ is imminently approachable, and dead people are not approachable at all.

This Catholic insistence on praying to dead people, or however you want to term it, is extremely confounding. It seems that you have no real faith in Christ is you need dead saints -- who all had their own sins to deal with -- to "help you out."

Confounding to you. Not to practicing Catholics.

So don't convert to Catholicism. Easy-peasy!

Exactly. Catholics -- especially those taught Catholism from birth and coming from a long line of Catholics, have no trouble with these concepts. It's completely cultural and seems quite normal if you've heard it all your life and everyone around you believes it too. It's only outsiders who have trouble understanding

And the child who is beaten by her father every day believes that's normal, too.

Being born INTO something doesn't necessarily mean that it's normal - or right. Viewing an issue through a different lens is healthy.

And yes, I'm an ex-Catholic. I questioned too much and got to a point where I discovered it was all bullshit.