Anonymous
02/29/2016 11:11
Subject: How Good is A Score of 31 on the ACT?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I just ran the stats on the harvard calculator - they are going to come back and ask for a significant contribution (over $3K) from your child for summer work and also a signifcant work-study program. That's one benefit I had with student loans - I was able to focus completely on my studies without any work/study obligations. Trying to find a summer job paying $3-5K in this market is going to be difficult.
Also remember when you say your contribution is $20, it's usually more like $40K because you have to make the money first, then pay taxes, which in our case is at the 50% rate.
My college student DCs worked retail last summer. One earned $3500 working part time, the other $5500 working full time. That's not an unrealistic expectation unless you want to do an unpaid internship every summer. In the job search for this summer the retail experience on the resume seems to be a good thing. Customer service experience, etc.
For cripe's sake, my *high school* student works 8 hours/week scooping ice cream and has managed to save almost $1000 since November. But maybe that's too much hard work for some of the special snowflakes out there.
Anonymous
02/29/2016 11:08
Subject: How Good is A Score of 31 on the ACT?
Anonymous wrote:From Harvard's financial aid page. See the word "loan". You haven't done the FAFSA, the CSS or the IDOC yet, have you? I have. It's not as simple as you think. YOu have to report info on your house (date of purchase, current value), your cars, all your assets, bank savings, income from any other source, etc. It's not as simply as saying HHI of $170 = $20K obligation. And most of the people on this board make more than $150 so the whole issue becomes moot.
"A variety of options
In addition to need–based scholarships, we also offer financing options such as a parent monthly payment plan, various loan programs, and the opportunity to pre-pay tuition for four years at your freshman year rate.
We will also help you find alternative sources of financial assistance, like research grants and student employment in our libraries, dining halls, museums, and academic departments."
New PP who does not have a student at Harvard but does know something (apparently more than you do) about college admissions and financial aid. Any student can borrow money under the Stafford loan program. Harvard does not include ANY loans in its financial aid packages. If it determines that the family contribution is $20k, it will grant the student $40k+, all grants no loans (although perhaps assuming that the student will have a job that contributes a small amount.) But loans are available under the Stafford program no matter what Harvard (or any school) deems as need or itemizes in the aid package. So the family can choose to borrow some money to help them meet that $20k family contribution, or to take the place of the student having a job if for some reason the student doesn't want to or can't work.
Please note that if Harvard--one of the most generous schools in the country--deems a family contribution to be $20k, that is likely to be the lowest family contribution estimate the student gets from any school. So, e.g., UVA might deem that same family's contribution to be $25k and then offer a financial aid package that is just a Stafford loan of ~$4k per year to make up the difference between UVA's price and the $25k family contribution. (Note that of course, that's not really financial aid at all, or any kind of "gift" from UVA, since every student, regardless of family need, is eligible to borrow that amount under the Stafford loan program.) So for this family, it would absolutely be cheaper to go to Harvard than to UVA. Would it be even cheaper to go to community college and transfer to UVA? Maybe, but perhaps not as much of a difference as you might expect. Consider the cost of tuition at community college, food & housing (which would be included in Harvard's $20k), transportation (does the student need a car to get to community college?), etc., plus the $25k at UVA for each of two years plus the Stafford loan amount needed at UVA.
Anonymous
02/29/2016 10:52
Subject: Re:How Good is A Score of 31 on the ACT?
Lots of misinformation in this thread. Attempting to sort fact from fiction:
--There is a difference between financial aid and merit aid. Financial aid is based on the student’s need, as determined by the college/university (and often based on the FAFSA). Merit aid is based on merit, again as determined by the college/university. Obviously, what one college deems “meritorious” may not be considered out of the ordinary (or even acceptable) at another college.
--Most of the top-rated colleges & universities give *financial* aid only. This includes all Ivy League schools, as well as Stanford, MIT, CalTech, Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Bowdoin, Middlebury. Some top-rated schools give a very small handful of students merit scholarships each year (e.g. Chicago, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Wash U, Rice, Notre Dame).
--Only about 60 colleges & universities in the US pledge to meet “100%” of students’ need (as determined by the school). Most of these schools are highly rated and accept only top students. Even among those schools that do meet full need, most of them meet that need with a combination of grants and loans. Only the following schools pledge to meet 100% of need without including loans in the aid package: Amherst, Bowdoin, Colby, Columbia, Connecticut College, Davidson, Franklin & Marshall, Olin, Harvard, Haverford, Pomona, Princeton, Stanford, Swarthmore, Penn, Vanderbilt, Washington & Lee, and Yale. (A handful of schools meet 100% of need without loans for lower income families: Brown, Cornell, Dartmouth, MIT, Rice, Chicago, UVA, Vassar, Wash U, Wellesley, Wesleyan). But note who is not on this list: Virtually every state university in the country. Almost every state U in the country includes loans in students' financial aid packages.
--All students can borrow money through the Stafford loan program, even if the financial aid package offered by the school doesn’t include loans—and even if the student doesn’t qualify for financial aid at all. So if a school offers a financial aid package that includes $3,000 “work study” or if the school deems that the family can pay $10k or $20k or $60k a year, the student/family can opt to borrow money to cover some or all of that amount. Under the Stafford loan program, dependent students can borrow (without a cosigner) up to $5500 freshman year, up to $6500 sophomore year, and up to $7500 junior year and beyond, for a maximum total amount of $31,000. For lower income families, a portion of the amount borrowed may be subsidized (i.e., no accrual of interested until after graduation). Students who want to borrow more money (beyond the Stafford limits) often can do so as long as they have a cosigner.
--For many students, attending a school that meets 100% need may be no more expensive—and may be cheaper—than attending an in-state public. This can be true even if the school is a pricey private that includes loans in the package, since most in-state publics (a) don’t meet 100% of need and (b) will include loans in their packages.
--For many students, attending a pricey private that doesn’t meet 100% need but does offer substantial merit scholarships may be no more expensive—and may be cheaper—than attending an in-state public. This will especially be true for students with good grades/test scores/etc. who also qualify for some financial aid.
--A student with a 31 ACT plus good (not necessarily great) grades in rigorous classes, and good (not necessarily great) activities will be a candidate for significant merit aid ($20k-$30k) at many mid-tier private schools, and some in-state and out-of-state publics as well. (Say, ranked 30+ on the USNWR university and SLAC rankings.) Again, for these students, attending a pricey private may be no more expensive than attending an in-state public.
--There is a difference between financial aid and merit aid. Financial aid is based on the student’s need, as determined by the college/university (and often based on the FAFSA). Merit aid is based on merit, again as determined by the college/university. Obviously, what one college deems “meritorious” may not be considered out of the ordinary (or even acceptable) at another college.
--Most of the top-rated colleges & universities give *financial* aid only. This includes all Ivy League schools, as well as Stanford, MIT, CalTech, Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Bowdoin, Middlebury. Some top-rated schools give a very small handful of students merit scholarships each year (e.g. Chicago, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Wash U, Rice, Notre Dame).
--Only about 60 colleges & universities in the US pledge to meet “100%” of students’ need (as determined by the school). Most of these schools are highly rated and accept only top students. Even among those schools that do meet full need, most of them meet that need with a combination of grants and loans. Only the following schools pledge to meet 100% of need without including loans in the aid package: Amherst, Bowdoin, Colby, Columbia, Connecticut College, Davidson, Franklin & Marshall, Olin, Harvard, Haverford, Pomona, Princeton, Stanford, Swarthmore, Penn, Vanderbilt, Washington & Lee, and Yale. (A handful of schools meet 100% of need without loans for lower income families: Brown, Cornell, Dartmouth, MIT, Rice, Chicago, UVA, Vassar, Wash U, Wellesley, Wesleyan). But note who is not on this list: Virtually every state university in the country. Almost every state U in the country includes loans in students' financial aid packages.
--All students can borrow money through the Stafford loan program, even if the financial aid package offered by the school doesn’t include loans—and even if the student doesn’t qualify for financial aid at all. So if a school offers a financial aid package that includes $3,000 “work study” or if the school deems that the family can pay $10k or $20k or $60k a year, the student/family can opt to borrow money to cover some or all of that amount. Under the Stafford loan program, dependent students can borrow (without a cosigner) up to $5500 freshman year, up to $6500 sophomore year, and up to $7500 junior year and beyond, for a maximum total amount of $31,000. For lower income families, a portion of the amount borrowed may be subsidized (i.e., no accrual of interested until after graduation). Students who want to borrow more money (beyond the Stafford limits) often can do so as long as they have a cosigner.
--For many students, attending a school that meets 100% need may be no more expensive—and may be cheaper—than attending an in-state public. This can be true even if the school is a pricey private that includes loans in the package, since most in-state publics (a) don’t meet 100% of need and (b) will include loans in their packages.
--For many students, attending a pricey private that doesn’t meet 100% need but does offer substantial merit scholarships may be no more expensive—and may be cheaper—than attending an in-state public. This will especially be true for students with good grades/test scores/etc. who also qualify for some financial aid.
--A student with a 31 ACT plus good (not necessarily great) grades in rigorous classes, and good (not necessarily great) activities will be a candidate for significant merit aid ($20k-$30k) at many mid-tier private schools, and some in-state and out-of-state publics as well. (Say, ranked 30+ on the USNWR university and SLAC rankings.) Again, for these students, attending a pricey private may be no more expensive than attending an in-state public.
Anonymous
02/29/2016 10:48
Subject: How Good is A Score of 31 on the ACT?
Anonymous wrote:I just ran the stats on the harvard calculator - they are going to come back and ask for a significant contribution (over $3K) from your child for summer work and also a signifcant work-study program. That's one benefit I had with student loans - I was able to focus completely on my studies without any work/study obligations. Trying to find a summer job paying $3-5K in this market is going to be difficult.
Also remember when you say your contribution is $20, it's usually more like $40K because you have to make the money first, then pay taxes, which in our case is at the 50% rate.
This is true whether PP's kid goes to George Mason or Harvard.
Anonymous
02/29/2016 10:16
Subject: How Good is A Score of 31 on the ACT?
Anonymous wrote:I just ran the stats on the harvard calculator - they are going to come back and ask for a significant contribution (over $3K) from your child for summer work and also a signifcant work-study program. That's one benefit I had with student loans - I was able to focus completely on my studies without any work/study obligations. Trying to find a summer job paying $3-5K in this market is going to be difficult.
Also remember when you say your contribution is $20, it's usually more like $40K because you have to make the money first, then pay taxes, which in our case is at the 50% rate.
My college student DCs worked retail last summer. One earned $3500 working part time, the other $5500 working full time. That's not an unrealistic expectation unless you want to do an unpaid internship every summer. In the job search for this summer the retail experience on the resume seems to be a good thing. Customer service experience, etc.
Anonymous
02/29/2016 10:10
Subject: Re:How Good is A Score of 31 on the ACT?
*here
Anonymous
02/29/2016 10:09
Subject: Re:How Good is A Score of 31 on the ACT?
First thread offered hear:
Mercedes GL versus GLA, does size really matter?
Mercedes GL versus GLA, does size really matter?
Anonymous
02/29/2016 10:05
Subject: Re:How Good is A Score of 31 on the ACT?
LOL!!!Anonymous wrote:Starting a new website, titled DC Urban Entitled Upper Middle Class Stay At Home Mom, or DCEUMCSAHM for short. Kinda catchy, don't you think. We can restrict membership and whine about the stuff that only applies to us.
Anonymous
02/29/2016 10:01
Subject: Re:How Good is A Score of 31 on the ACT?
Starting a new website, titled DC Urban Entitled Upper Middle Class Stay At Home Mom, or DCEUMCSAHM for short. Kinda catchy, don't you think. We can restrict membership and whine about the stuff that only applies to us.
Anonymous
02/29/2016 09:55
Subject: How Good is A Score of 31 on the ACT?
Anonymous wrote:From Harvard's financial aid page. See the word "loan". You haven't done the FAFSA, the CSS or the IDOC yet, have you? I have. It's not as simple as you think. YOu have to report info on your house (date of purchase, current value), your cars, all your assets, bank savings, income from any other source, etc. It's not as simply as saying HHI of $170 = $20K obligation. And most of the people on this board make more than $150 so the whole issue becomes moot.
"A variety of options
In addition to need–based scholarships, we also offer financing options such as a parent monthly payment plan, various loan programs, and the opportunity to pre-pay tuition for four years at your freshman year rate.
We will also help you find alternative sources of financial assistance, like research grants and student employment in our libraries, dining halls, museums, and academic departments."
Not moot at all. 65% of students receive some form of aid from the school. So, if you ignore this possibility you do so at your own peril/expense. And despite what you think - as this is not the Private School Forum - the majority of us do not make more than $150k (median DC MSA income is about $90k). Unless, you believe that those at the median should not be included in this discussion.
Anonymous
02/29/2016 08:50
Subject: How Good is A Score of 31 on the ACT?
From Harvard's financial aid page. See the word "loan". You haven't done the FAFSA, the CSS or the IDOC yet, have you? I have. It's not as simple as you think. YOu have to report info on your house (date of purchase, current value), your cars, all your assets, bank savings, income from any other source, etc. It's not as simply as saying HHI of $170 = $20K obligation. And most of the people on this board make more than $150 so the whole issue becomes moot.
"A variety of options
In addition to need–based scholarships, we also offer financing options such as a parent monthly payment plan, various loan programs, and the opportunity to pre-pay tuition for four years at your freshman year rate.
We will also help you find alternative sources of financial assistance, like research grants and student employment in our libraries, dining halls, museums, and academic departments."
"A variety of options
In addition to need–based scholarships, we also offer financing options such as a parent monthly payment plan, various loan programs, and the opportunity to pre-pay tuition for four years at your freshman year rate.
We will also help you find alternative sources of financial assistance, like research grants and student employment in our libraries, dining halls, museums, and academic departments."
Anonymous
02/29/2016 06:07
Subject: How Good is A Score of 31 on the ACT?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:'Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As others have said, it depends on the school. Not much merit $$ for a 31. More importantly, did your child prep for this test? If not, lots of prep and practice definitely can increase scores.
This is absolute bull. My child, with a 29, got merit at every single private school she applied to and one of the publics- Marquette, AU, Drexel, Loyola in Chicago, Belmont, and Miami of Ohio.
If you are fixated on the top 50 schools or whatever there's not much merit, but it is so so so so false that there is not much merit for a 31 on the ACT.
Thank you for posting this! I've heard that from many others too. People like to state things on this forum as though they are the absolute expert on the subject and they are often completely wrong. My DD has not gotten her scores back yet for the ACT and she will likely take it twice but I know that if she ends up with a 29 she will be competitive for merit money at good places. She is a very strong student at a competitive school and I know for a fact, based on common data set, that many schools "consider" test scores but say that rigor and essay (or other factors) are "very important". Not everyone is meant to take multiple choice tests, in fact for the rest of their lives they will be asked to contribute much more to their environments than filling out a bunch of bubbles on a sheet. Many great schools know that and can't wait to get these kids on their campus.
Oh, honey, i wish that were true, but you are in a seller's market. Admissions doesn't give a damn about your kid unless your child possesses something they want - an athelete, a URM statistic, a famous name, a super wealthy parent, a legacy that matters, extraordinary feats of strength, amazing musician, or already published in some field - your child is just a bunch of numbers to them. That's why there are no interviews for most schools. It's all about GPA/rigor/ACT score/SAT II subject matter test scores/and rank in class. That's why after the EA classes are announced you see schools bragging that the EA class, alone, like this: "The average ACT score of the admitted pool is 33. For SAT, the average score of those admitted is 1453 out of 1600 (2166 out of 2400). The admitted students have taken an average of more than 10 college-level courses and 96 percent have taken an Advanced Placement calculus course." Every school now does this because they are ALL fighting to climb a rank on the U.S. News & World Report rankings. And if you think your kid with middling scores will get in to a selective university, think again because there are now millions of extremely talented international students, mostly from China and India, who will kill to get a slot at an American college or University. Until it stops being a seller's market (and I don't see any end in sight - the system is broken but I can't tell you how to fix it unless the rankings stops), an American student with blah stats and grades is going to have to throw a lot of applications out there
Overly simplistic and cynical interpretation. The fact of the matter is that there are more white, middle class, public school kids at Harvard today than there were 20 years ago and far more than 50 years ago. Yes, at a school like Harvard the test scores skew very high, but there are plenty of extremely strong colleges with a 31 ACT as the midpoint of the range (UCLA Bucknell, Lehigh, Hamilton, Colgate, SUNY Binghamton, and the list goes on).
Not true. And I went to Harvard. Middle class can no longer afford it. There are no merit scholarships. So it's either the rich or the financial aid kids and they don't want white, they want diversity and international studients.
What?! We make $170K, which is hardly middle class, and Harvard was cheaper than state schools for us. For 90% of the country, Harvard, and most other top 20 schools, is cheaper than state schools.
+1, there is a lot of misinformation out there about these schools.
How is Harvard (@70,000) better than your instate school (UVA - 10-11,000 for tuition, tack room and board and books, etc. $28,000. Unless DC gets a annual $43,000 scholarship (which he won't) how can you say that?
The thing to remember is that if your EFC is say, $20,000, it will be $20,000 whether you're at a school that costs $20,000 or a school that costs $70,000. For schools that meet 100% of need, that means you will pay $20K even if the list price is $60K.
Our HHI is $150K (which I do not consider middle class), and our EFC came back at $26,000. Now, we don't know if our child will be accepted to the private colleges he applied to. However, because we did our research and he only applied to private colleges that meet 100% of demonstrated need, this means that we will not pay more than $26K at any of these schools. At some schools, like Harvard, you are only expected to contribute 0-10% of your income up to a certain point, s[b]o we'd only be paying in the $15K range for Harvard.
but the remainder still must be made up - and that is in the form of the package the college sends you. You the parent may be paying only $15K,but you never escape the $70K price tag. They will come back at you with a package of student loans (federal), and work study programs. You're not completely off the hook. And in the case of Princeton, they say debt free but they mean debt free to the school. The package will contain grants from the school, work-study, student loans from Princeton and student loans from the feds.
No, again misinformation. At Harvard there are no loans from the Feds. Student is debt free at graduation. You can keep arguing that there is some catch, all the while I am sending my kid to Harvard for less than the cost of a state school. It might make you feel better to believe your narrative. I am not saying that the $20k family contribution is easy, but that is why we saved some money all along in a 529. If you aren't willing to look into the facts, then you and your child are the only ones who lose.
Anonymous
02/29/2016 06:01
Subject: Re:How Good is A Score of 31 on the ACT?
The simple question was a comparison between a state school and a particular Ivy. Of course college is expensive.
Anonymous
02/28/2016 23:42
Subject: How Good is A Score of 31 on the ACT?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:'Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As others have said, it depends on the school. Not much merit $$ for a 31. More importantly, did your child prep for this test? If not, lots of prep and practice definitely can increase scores.
This is absolute bull. My child, with a 29, got merit at every single private school she applied to and one of the publics- Marquette, AU, Drexel, Loyola in Chicago, Belmont, and Miami of Ohio.
If you are fixated on the top 50 schools or whatever there's not much merit, but it is so so so so false that there is not much merit for a 31 on the ACT.
Thank you for posting this! I've heard that from many others too. People like to state things on this forum as though they are the absolute expert on the subject and they are often completely wrong. My DD has not gotten her scores back yet for the ACT and she will likely take it twice but I know that if she ends up with a 29 she will be competitive for merit money at good places. She is a very strong student at a competitive school and I know for a fact, based on common data set, that many schools "consider" test scores but say that rigor and essay (or other factors) are "very important". Not everyone is meant to take multiple choice tests, in fact for the rest of their lives they will be asked to contribute much more to their environments than filling out a bunch of bubbles on a sheet. Many great schools know that and can't wait to get these kids on their campus.
Oh, honey, i wish that were true, but you are in a seller's market. Admissions doesn't give a damn about your kid unless your child possesses something they want - an athelete, a URM statistic, a famous name, a super wealthy parent, a legacy that matters, extraordinary feats of strength, amazing musician, or already published in some field - your child is just a bunch of numbers to them. That's why there are no interviews for most schools. It's all about GPA/rigor/ACT score/SAT II subject matter test scores/and rank in class. That's why after the EA classes are announced you see schools bragging that the EA class, alone, like this: "The average ACT score of the admitted pool is 33. For SAT, the average score of those admitted is 1453 out of 1600 (2166 out of 2400). The admitted students have taken an average of more than 10 college-level courses and 96 percent have taken an Advanced Placement calculus course." Every school now does this because they are ALL fighting to climb a rank on the U.S. News & World Report rankings. And if you think your kid with middling scores will get in to a selective university, think again because there are now millions of extremely talented international students, mostly from China and India, who will kill to get a slot at an American college or University. Until it stops being a seller's market (and I don't see any end in sight - the system is broken but I can't tell you how to fix it unless the rankings stops), an American student with blah stats and grades is going to have to throw a lot of applications out there
Overly simplistic and cynical interpretation. The fact of the matter is that there are more white, middle class, public school kids at Harvard today than there were 20 years ago and far more than 50 years ago. Yes, at a school like Harvard the test scores skew very high, but there are plenty of extremely strong colleges with a 31 ACT as the midpoint of the range (UCLA Bucknell, Lehigh, Hamilton, Colgate, SUNY Binghamton, and the list goes on).
Not true. And I went to Harvard. Middle class can no longer afford it. There are no merit scholarships. So it's either the rich or the financial aid kids and they don't want white, they want diversity and international studients.
What?! We make $170K, which is hardly middle class, and Harvard was cheaper than state schools for us. For 90% of the country, Harvard, and most other top 20 schools, is cheaper than state schools.
+1, there is a lot of misinformation out there about these schools.
How is Harvard (@70,000) better than your instate school (UVA - 10-11,000 for tuition, tack room and board and books, etc. $28,000. Unless DC gets a annual $43,000 scholarship (which he won't) how can you say that?
This is how (from Harvard's FA website):
The Basics
•Close to 60% of our undergraduates receive Harvard Scholarship.
•20% of our parents have total incomes less than $65,000 and are not expected to contribute.
•Families with incomes between $65,000 and $150,000 will contribute from 0-10% of their income, and those with incomes above $150,000 will be asked to pay proportionately more than 10%, based on their individual circumstances. Families at all income levels who have significant assets will continue to pay more than those in less fortunate circumstances.
•Two-thirds of students work during the academic year.
So the family making $170k actually contributes something like $20k, meaning the scholarship dollar you reference (it is actually a grant) is more like $50k and not $43k. So, the facts support the previous poster, despite your incredulity.
It's "financial aid" dollar not scholarship dollar. There is no merit aid at the top Ivies. And I'm incredulous that a family that makes only $170K is considering spending some $40K a year in pretax dollars out of the $170 for college. How are you going to fund other children if any? How are you going to put any money away for retirement? Are you taking care of elderly grandparents? I know of no one in that range who has received the kind of financial aid you are expecting. Bear in mind you also have to include all your assets and liabilites and your children's income. FAFSA and CSS are not a walk in the park. You have to report the year you bought your cars, make, model and all debt and loan information. You child will have work study programs and summer financial expectations too. When you factor all of that in, I think you will find in-state is better, especially if you can drive there. The traveling expenses really add up if you and child have to fly. Most people I know who have put their kids thru HYP paid full rate because they made $300K ++++a year. That's why these schools are becoming schools of the "haves" and "have nots" with no middle class in between. The Harvard calculator is a PR ploy designed to make you think they are a) definitely going to help out the poorest (fine); b) will help you in the mid-range - but be careful, those workstudy programs and summer donation expectations can be rather steep, c) but the reality is that the kids that actually show up are the "haves" and the "have nots". Families in the 170K range, especially with multiple children, do best with the VA community college plan, then transfer into UVA after two years.
Anonymous
02/28/2016 22:27
Subject: How Good is A Score of 31 on the ACT?
I just ran the stats on the harvard calculator - they are going to come back and ask for a significant contribution (over $3K) from your child for summer work and also a signifcant work-study program. That's one benefit I had with student loans - I was able to focus completely on my studies without any work/study obligations. Trying to find a summer job paying $3-5K in this market is going to be difficult.
Also remember when you say your contribution is $20, it's usually more like $40K because you have to make the money first, then pay taxes, which in our case is at the 50% rate.
Also remember when you say your contribution is $20, it's usually more like $40K because you have to make the money first, then pay taxes, which in our case is at the 50% rate.