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Anonymous wrote:I honestly think you just bug him. And yes it's nagging to ask why a grown man drove his own car to work and how in the heck he came to have a coffee is none of your business. Seriously relax. I am a woman and I think you're overbearing.

Um, they're married. If he is genuinely set off by such a little thing, then he has some serious issues that he needs to work on in order to be in a relationship. yet another reason to dump him.

I'm married too and she sounds like a pain in the ass.

Not to me. YOU sound like a pain in the ass to me...

You got that right. Go you!

Awww thanks! It wasn't hard to guess though... you just give off that vibe!

It's my birthday and I'm on my period. Cut me some slack

WTH does that mean? ON your perioed? You HAVE your period. You sound like you're fromIowa or something

Anonymous wrote:Thank you again for the advice. I don't want to read the art of cross examination. I want peace in my life, some quiet. I don't want to argue, I don't want to fight. I don't want to expend any more energy trying to figure out if he is lying. At this point, I am done with that. If his lips are moving he is lying.

Him: My meeting ran late and I missed the train by 5 minutes!Do you believe it? next one is is in 20 m.
Me: that stinks, dinner is here, I'm going to run out and go food shopping.
Him: okay I will see you in about an hour.
I get home at 7, he gets home at 9. He is very talkative and starts talking about his meeting which was accidentally in a bar. It was an accident because while he was talking he mentioned how good his fish tacos were.
Me: you ate dinner?
Him: I didn't eat dinner! What are you talking about?
Me: you just said you had the best fish tacos.
Him: Oh right. I didn't eat your dinner. I ate the fish tacos. I thought you meant your dinner no I didn't eat dinner. You misunderstood me.

He thinks he is a brilliant liar. He probably laughs at my ignorance.


So as we see, this is a lot deeper than dinner or coffee or trains. These are ridiculous lies.
What is beyond belief is that I accept this behavior and have not left.
I will be looking for a counselor to figure out why I accept this behavior and meanwhile get my ducks in a row.

I don't understand why people do this. Even if you get pressured into a drink situation with your boss. It takes two minutes to text and let your spouse know your plan. My brother does this to my SIL all the time. I have no idea how she puts up with it. She will complain to me in the heat of the moment and get me all worried and upset along with her. Then the next day it's like nothing happened. Sometimes I will ask what ended up happening last night and she will say oh this or oh that, we're fine now.

OP, I'm a NP here.
My husbands brother is like this, exactly. Most recently,
I once asked him what he ordered at a restaurant the night before and he said "salmon." I mentioned it to my husband later, asking what DH ordered and it came out his brother ordered a steak. (We eat anything so no vegetarian or special diet for anyone). An inconsequential, meaningless lie. It sounds ridiculous to even type out, but this is what he does. You ask him what cell service he uses, he says Verizon but you notice he has an ATT phone. No significant difference, just a group of people talking about rates. He said he picked up someone from the airport. Turns out that person took a taxi to his house. Again, no one cares, it's small talk. It's been 10 years of weird lies about, really, nothing. So I totally relate.
But what I have found from being a part of their family and seeing the dynamics over the years, is that their mother smothered and micromanaged his brother to death. My husband escaped it somehow, but their mother zoned in on his brother from an early age with nagging and hovering and really controlling stuff.
It is clear to us that his brothers lying is something he learned early on as a coping mechanism to push their mom away, get some semblance of privacy and independence, and just can't stop now, and with other people.
I picture his brother as a little boy just trying to cope with the criticism, nagging and overbearing ways of his mother, and getting some relief from saying he had an apple, when he really had a peach. It's sad .

He probably doesn't even know now that he does it, it's just ingrained in his behavior now.
I'm wondering if your husband has some sort of dynamic like that in his life?

Anonymous wrote:I think people are way too willing to put up with hurtful behavior. We aren't talking about an acquaintance who tells an occasional tall tale, we are talking about someone's life partner. If the llying party won't even admit the lying is a problem, I'm not sure how effective conversations and therapy would be. By all means try but for goodness sake, the standard for a life partner should be pretty damn high and this behavior just isn't acceptable. This isn't a minor issue. No wonder so many people are living in quiet desperation.

Agree

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Anonymous wrote:OP, I understand. My DH lies about the dumbest things, and I just can't figure out what the hell he's thinking. It's over stuff I would never in a million years pick a fight over, but now, as they all add up, it makes me wonder why he feels the need to lie and they are taking on a life of their own. Big example that's happening now: I am a vegetarian. I couldn't care less if he eats meat or not, never pressured him, he just said years ago that he wanted to stop eating it because he didn't feel good. Last weekend, we're out of town at a hotel that included breakfast, and I literally watched as he hid a sausage patty under his eggs. And last night, he brought sandwiches home and told me it was tuna when it was turkey, plain as day and on the receipt. So why in the world does he think I give a crap?? I was taken off guard a few times where he's clearly hiding it, and now I'm prepared to ask him why he feels the need to lie about what he's eating. It's beyond strange to me. But also hurtful - he's choosing to lie to me over something so dumb, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter if it's over something dumb or not - he's choosing to lie to me.

He feels judged

Well, that's in his own head. I've never once chimed in about his diet in that way. He's lying, but it's my fault because I've judged him? This was just one example, by the way.

No one said it was your fault. The issue seems to be that he is feeling shame about something and dealing with it in a childish way. Shame is a very powerful emotion that people will do all kinds of neurotic things to avoid. This issue most likely long predates your relationship, and goes back to childhood.

If I were you, I would just sit him down and calmly explain what you have observed about his behavior and then offer your hypothesis as to the cause of his behavior. Then give him to explain himself. Don't be "threatening" about it, but also don't allow him to be evasive or sneak his way out of it with some more BS. Try to make it "safe" for him to be able be honest about what is probably going to humiliating for him to fess-up to, and then just get to a point where he can admit to the fact that he being inappropriate and that he needs to work on it. There is a famous book called "Crucial Conversations" that offers perfect strategies for dealing with this kind of situation.

Please ignore the "get a divorce" crowd. It's so easy to howl "get a divorce" when it's no skin off of your back. There is so much terrible advice doled out on DCUM everyday. I hope it's just vocal minority, for humanity's sake.

You seem to have a very hopeful, bordering on delusional, opinion of exactly the effect you can have on a lifetime of learned behavior. And a bit of a savior complex. And a rather kind of condescending attitude to people who are going through something that you CLEARLY have never, ever been through.

Please don't weigh in on what you don't know and haven't lived. And keep the "I know best" attitude to yourself. Thanks.

That same criticism can be levied at basically anyone who has replied to this thread. Everyone is offering their perspective.

But, go ahead. Just yell at the OP to get a divorce. That's so much more helpful than suggesting that she simply confront him about it. When a spouse has an issue, don't bother trying to work it out, even though it is something that can probably be improved. You deserve better. People are disposable. Men come and go. Why should you have to lift a finger to try to help someone when it inconveniences you, and they are behaving poorly? Why should you care about someone else's problems? It's not like you married the g-- oh wait. Oh well. Just get a divorce, kick him to the curb and let your kids spend the rest of their childhood being shuffled around.

Just stop. I am a PP who recommended divorce because I had to divorce a similar man. Where did I say I didn't try everything before divorcing? I confronted him calmly about lies, I talked to him compassionately about his alcoholic father and sexually abused depressed mother, I modeled sane and respectful behavior and straightforward communication, I read books and websites about personality disorders. I dragged him to marriage counseling, where he lied and convinced the counselor that everything was my fault- exactly as another PP said- nothing is ever his fault, everyone else is to blame for everything.

You mean well, PP, but you clearly have never actually been in a relationship with someone with serious mental issues and you have no idea what you are talking about.

Sorry your marriage didn't work out. That doesn't mean that the OP's DH is going to be the same. He may have something different going on. He may be able to change. Not every troubled person is a recalcitrant loser.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:OP, I understand. My DH lies about the dumbest things, and I just can't figure out what the hell he's thinking. It's over stuff I would never in a million years pick a fight over, but now, as they all add up, it makes me wonder why he feels the need to lie and they are taking on a life of their own. Big example that's happening now: I am a vegetarian. I couldn't care less if he eats meat or not, never pressured him, he just said years ago that he wanted to stop eating it because he didn't feel good. Last weekend, we're out of town at a hotel that included breakfast, and I literally watched as he hid a sausage patty under his eggs. And last night, he brought sandwiches home and told me it was tuna when it was turkey, plain as day and on the receipt. So why in the world does he think I give a crap?? I was taken off guard a few times where he's clearly hiding it, and now I'm prepared to ask him why he feels the need to lie about what he's eating. It's beyond strange to me. But also hurtful - he's choosing to lie to me over something so dumb, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter if it's over something dumb or not - he's choosing to lie to me.

He feels judged

Well, that's in his own head. I've never once chimed in about his diet in that way. He's lying, but it's my fault because I've judged him? This was just one example, by the way.

No one said it was your fault. The issue seems to be that he is feeling shame about something and dealing with it in a childish way. Shame is a very powerful emotion that people will do all kinds of neurotic things to avoid. This issue most likely long predates your relationship, and goes back to childhood.

If I were you, I would just sit him down and calmly explain what you have observed about his behavior and then offer your hypothesis as to the cause of his behavior. Then give him to explain himself. Don't be "threatening" about it, but also don't allow him to be evasive or sneak his way out of it with some more BS. Try to make it "safe" for him to be able be honest about what is probably going to humiliating for him to fess-up to, and then just get to a point where he can admit to the fact that he being inappropriate and that he needs to work on it. There is a famous book called "Crucial Conversations" that offers perfect strategies for dealing with this kind of situation.

Please ignore the "get a divorce" crowd. It's so easy to howl "get a divorce" when it's no skin off of your back. There is so much terrible advice doled out on DCUM everyday. I hope it's just vocal minority, for humanity's sake.

You seem to have a very hopeful, bordering on delusional, opinion of exactly the effect you can have on a lifetime of learned behavior. And a bit of a savior complex. And a rather kind of condescending attitude to people who are going through something that you CLEARLY have never, ever been through.

Please don't weigh in on what you don't know and haven't lived. And keep the "I know best" attitude to yourself. Thanks.

That same criticism can be levied at basically anyone who has replied to this thread. Everyone is offering their perspective.

But, go ahead. Just yell at the OP to get a divorce. That's so much more helpful than suggesting that she simply confront him about it. When a spouse has an issue, don't bother trying to work it out, even though it is something that can probably be improved. You deserve better. People are disposable. Men come and go. Why should you have to lift a finger to try to help someone when it inconveniences you, and they are behaving poorly? Why should you care about someone else's problems? It's not like you married the g-- oh wait. Oh well. Just get a divorce, kick him to the curb and let your kids spend the rest of their childhood being shuffled around.

Just stop. I am a PP who recommended divorce because I had to divorce a similar man. Where did I say I didn't try everything before divorcing? I confronted him calmly about lies, I talked to him compassionately about his alcoholic father and sexually abused depressed mother, I modeled sane and respectful behavior and straightforward communication, I read books and websites about personality disorders. I dragged him to marriage counseling, where he lied and convinced the counselor that everything was my fault- exactly as another PP said- nothing is ever his fault, everyone else is to blame for everything.

You mean well, PP, but you clearly have never actually been in a relationship with someone with serious mental issues and you have no idea what you are talking about.

OP, this sounds infuriating. My DH does the same thing and it has really hurt our marriage.

I wonder, by the way, if there is some difficulty in communicating in both directions.

What does the below phrasing mean, for example?

I get home at 7, he gets home at 9. He is very talkative and starts talking about his meeting which was accidentally in a bar. It was an accident because while he was talking he mentioned how good his fish tacos were.

I didn't read all of the threads but reminds me of my single brother. My father is a pathological liar. He lies and exaggerates everything. My brother has similar tendancies. You know what they say - father is a sons biggest role model.

Okay so my brother isn't a bad person. In fact, he a really great brother, and person deep down. However, it's the habitual lying about stuff. Ie/ I have 1 course b/f I graduate left. When in fact he has 3. Or, yes I get my degree this summer ( actually in December b/c he's not doing well). Those are minor examples. There's lots that I can't even remember right now. But I never ever trust anything he says. My sister and I talk about this a lot. We have confronted him as a family. He is such a good person overall that we just say whatever. Except this habit has hurt him in life. I have researched liars before. THere's something deep in them that makes them do it. But doesn't mean that they're bad people. My brother is the most loving uncle. He's there when I need him etc. He just lies. Even when he doesn't need to. I think it's learned behavior.

Anonymous wrote:Thank you again for the advice. I don't want to read the art of cross examination. I want peace in my life, some quiet. I don't want to argue, I don't want to fight. I don't want to expend any more energy trying to figure out if he is lying. At this point, I am done with that. If his lips are moving he is lying.

Him: My meeting ran late and I missed the train by 5 minutes!Do you believe it? next one is is in 20 m.
Me: that stinks, dinner is here, I'm going to run out and go food shopping.
Him: okay I will see you in about an hour.
I get home at 7, he gets home at 9. He is very talkative and starts talking about his meeting which was accidentally in a bar. It was an accident because while he was talking he mentioned how good his fish tacos were.
Me: you ate dinner?
Him: I didn't eat dinner! What are you talking about?
Me: you just said you had the best fish tacos.
Him: Oh right. I didn't eat your dinner. I ate the fish tacos. I thought you meant your dinner no I didn't eat dinner. You misunderstood me.

He thinks he is a brilliant liar. He probably laughs at my ignorance.


So as we see, this is a lot deeper than dinner or coffee or trains. These are ridiculous lies.
What is beyond belief is that I accept this behavior and have not left.
I will be looking for a counselor to figure out why I accept this behavior and meanwhile get my ducks in a row.

Did you blow up at him?

I know it is quite common for work to end with drinks. My boss love happy hour and it is often awkward to decline. Some of the dads reluctantly stay because the vibe is you should go if the boss invites you. I had to go pick up kids so I rarely went to these things.

If DH came home at 9 when he normally comes home at 6, I'd be furious. Just send a text and say you are having drinks some coworkers.

Your DH is really shady, OP. I would lose my shit and start screaming at him if he lied like this on a normal basis. I would never be able to deal.

Anonymous wrote:Thank you again for the advice. I don't want to read the art of cross examination. I want peace in my life, some quiet. I don't want to argue, I don't want to fight. I don't want to expend any more energy trying to figure out if he is lying. At this point, I am done with that. If his lips are moving he is lying.

Him: My meeting ran late and I missed the train by 5 minutes!Do you believe it? next one is is in 20 m.
Me: that stinks, dinner is here, I'm going to run out and go food shopping.
Him: okay I will see you in about an hour.
I get home at 7, he gets home at 9. He is very talkative and starts talking about his meeting which was accidentally in a bar. It was an accident because while he was talking he mentioned how good his fish tacos were.
Me: you ate dinner?
Him: I didn't eat dinner! What are you talking about?
Me: you just said you had the best fish tacos.
Him: Oh right. I didn't eat your dinner. I ate the fish tacos. I thought you meant your dinner no I didn't eat dinner. You misunderstood me.

He thinks he is a brilliant liar. He probably laughs at my ignorance.


So as we see, this is a lot deeper than dinner or coffee or trains. These are ridiculous lies.
What is beyond belief is that I accept this behavior and have not left.
I will be looking for a counselor to figure out why I accept this behavior and meanwhile get my ducks in a row.

This! But better late than never OP. I wish you the best of luck getting away from this person.

Thank you again for the advice. I don't want to read the art of cross examination. I want peace in my life, some quiet. I don't want to argue, I don't want to fight. I don't want to expend any more energy trying to figure out if he is lying. At this point, I am done with that. If his lips are moving he is lying.

Him: My meeting ran late and I missed the train by 5 minutes!Do you believe it? next one is is in 20 m.
Me: that stinks, dinner is here, I'm going to run out and go food shopping.
Him: okay I will see you in about an hour.
I get home at 7, he gets home at 9. He is very talkative and starts talking about his meeting which was accidentally in a bar. It was an accident because while he was talking he mentioned how good his fish tacos were.
Me: you ate dinner?
Him: I didn't eat dinner! What are you talking about?
Me: you just said you had the best fish tacos.
Him: Oh right. I didn't eat your dinner. I ate the fish tacos. I thought you meant your dinner no I didn't eat dinner. You misunderstood me.

He thinks he is a brilliant liar. He probably laughs at my ignorance.


So as we see, this is a lot deeper than dinner or coffee or trains. These are ridiculous lies.
What is beyond belief is that I accept this behavior and have not left.
I will be looking for a counselor to figure out why I accept this behavior and meanwhile get my ducks in a row.

Anonymous wrote:

. . .the lies are a pathological way of hiding shame, deflecting reality, and avoiding punishment. He was likely cheating, definitely unstable, and violent. So I left and will never be with a pathological liar again.

This times a million billion. I had the same experience.

Anonymous wrote:OP here.
I understand that some people either can not relate or would never accept this behavior.
I CAN tell you with COMPLETE confidence that I do not in any way interrogate my husband. His lies come out really only when discovered. Like when we needed the car and it wasn't at the train station. Don't you think its strange that DH only admitted he wasn't taking the train when he was "caught?" When I say that I really don't care whether he drives in or not. But the fact that he leaves at the exact same time and arrives home at the exact same time as if he took the train? The only reason that came out was I asked why he was coming home at the exact same times. He looked at me like he swallowed his tongue. Now that's odd, do't you think? And then he says it's none of my business? He does it all the time?
That's some questionable behavior.

NP here. I had a boyfriend who was a liar. I read this little book, "The Art of Cross Examination." So, in this situation, you would not say, "I went by to get the car and it wasn't there," because then he'd say, "Oh, I drove today,"

You'd say, "I heard the train was delayed."
Him: "Yes, it was,"
you: "Did it make you late?
Him--either "no, I took the car," or, "yes/no"
(assuming he said yes)
How late did it make you? Did you have to explain to (boss)…

…and you see if he starts to spin it out. Then when he's done a whole story that's a lie, you say,(very calmly)

"I know you took your car in today."
No I didn't…What makes you say that?
(don't give him any info) "You took your car in today"

etc. He will try to disprove you, minimize it, and ask you stuff in the hopes that you reveal how you know what you know (and that reveals HOW MUCH/LITTLE you know, so it gives him power to re-spin. don't give him any info)

Now you better be ready to hear it. I found out my boyfriend was a cheat.

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Anonymous wrote:I honestly think you just bug him. And yes it's nagging to ask why a grown man drove his own car to work and how in the heck he came to have a coffee is none of your business. Seriously relax. I am a woman and I think you're overbearing.

Um, they're married. If he is genuinely set off by such a little thing, then he has some serious issues that he needs to work on in order to be in a relationship. yet another reason to dump him.

I'm married too and she sounds like a pain in the ass.

Not to me. YOU sound like a pain in the ass to me...

You got that right. Go you!

Awww thanks! It wasn't hard to guess though... you just give off that vibe!

It's my birthday and I'm on my period. Cut me some slack

Alright, go eat some cake and watch a movie. It's your birthday, you get to relax.

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Anonymous wrote:I honestly think you just bug him. And yes it's nagging to ask why a grown man drove his own car to work and how in the heck he came to have a coffee is none of your business. Seriously relax. I am a woman and I think you're overbearing.

Um, they're married. If he is genuinely set off by such a little thing, then he has some serious issues that he needs to work on in order to be in a relationship. yet another reason to dump him.

I'm married too and she sounds like a pain in the ass.

Not to me. YOU sound like a pain in the ass to me...

You got that right. Go you!

Awww thanks! It wasn't hard to guess though... you just give off that vibe!

It's my birthday and I'm on my period. Cut me some slack