Anonymous
07/21/2015 23:03
Subject: Christmas Trees
OP--
Here's a light suggestion--
Do the small tree for SD. As you celebrate Hannukah, have little gifts for SD to give to her younger step-siblings for each of the 8 days---having her hide them under the tree each night. Instead of "Elf on a Shelf", you'll have "Toy from a Goy". Fun bonding for big step-sis and little ones---if they, like most little ones, love the attention from the oldest.
Here's a light suggestion--
Do the small tree for SD. As you celebrate Hannukah, have little gifts for SD to give to her younger step-siblings for each of the 8 days---having her hide them under the tree each night. Instead of "Elf on a Shelf", you'll have "Toy from a Goy". Fun bonding for big step-sis and little ones---if they, like most little ones, love the attention from the oldest.
Anonymous
07/21/2015 22:23
Subject: Christmas Trees
Anonymous wrote:OP. I admire your genuine curiosity and your reasonable tone.
I think you raise a fascinating question ... why the tree bothers you more than the far more religious nativity etc. I suspect it is because the tree is the biggest symbol of this Christian holiday ... even if it is not an especially religious symbol. Also the tree is, i think most agree, a really lovely tradition, and perhaps one that will entice children more than say, an angel. You collect ornaments year after year and it becomes very sentimental and very symbolic of this festive time once a year. It reminds many of us of our childhoods. My daughter cries every year when it is time to take it down. Just saying.
I can also appreciate how offensive and over the top the onslaught of Christmas music/decorations/lights/etc can be to a non-Christian. If it is any consolation, I find all that offensive too. And I always wonder how the Jews among us can stand it. I think it shows Christmas in a really bad light. But the family tree is entirely different, at least to me, it symbolizes the noncommercial aspect of Christmas ... coming home for the holidays, being with loved ones, etc
I do agree with some posters that the simple fact that you married a Christian man means that you have somewhat assimilated but ... just like the way different views about trees ... different Jews have different opinions about what it means to assimilate.
I'd just add that I find many of the comments on here about how the tree needs to be avoided at all costs highly offensive, like the woman who married a Christian but resentfully pulls out the one foot tree for two hours ever year.
+1
Well said.
Anonymous
07/21/2015 19:55
Subject: Christmas Trees
OP. I admire your genuine curiosity and your reasonable tone.
I think you raise a fascinating question ... why the tree bothers you more than the far more religious nativity etc. I suspect it is because the tree is the biggest symbol of this Christian holiday ... even if it is not an especially religious symbol. Also the tree is, i think most agree, a really lovely tradition, and perhaps one that will entice children more than say, an angel. You collect ornaments year after year and it becomes very sentimental and very symbolic of this festive time once a year. It reminds many of us of our childhoods. My daughter cries every year when it is time to take it down. Just saying.
I can also appreciate how offensive and over the top the onslaught of Christmas music/decorations/lights/etc can be to a non-Christian. If it is any consolation, I find all that offensive too. And I always wonder how the Jews among us can stand it. I think it shows Christmas in a really bad light. But the family tree is entirely different, at least to me, it symbolizes the noncommercial aspect of Christmas ... coming home for the holidays, being with loved ones, etc
I do agree with some posters that the simple fact that you married a Christian man means that you have somewhat assimilated but ... just like the way different views about trees ... different Jews have different opinions about what it means to assimilate.
I'd just add that I find many of the comments on here about how the tree needs to be avoided at all costs highly offensive, like the woman who married a Christian but resentfully pulls out the one foot tree for two hours ever year.
I think you raise a fascinating question ... why the tree bothers you more than the far more religious nativity etc. I suspect it is because the tree is the biggest symbol of this Christian holiday ... even if it is not an especially religious symbol. Also the tree is, i think most agree, a really lovely tradition, and perhaps one that will entice children more than say, an angel. You collect ornaments year after year and it becomes very sentimental and very symbolic of this festive time once a year. It reminds many of us of our childhoods. My daughter cries every year when it is time to take it down. Just saying.
I can also appreciate how offensive and over the top the onslaught of Christmas music/decorations/lights/etc can be to a non-Christian. If it is any consolation, I find all that offensive too. And I always wonder how the Jews among us can stand it. I think it shows Christmas in a really bad light. But the family tree is entirely different, at least to me, it symbolizes the noncommercial aspect of Christmas ... coming home for the holidays, being with loved ones, etc
I do agree with some posters that the simple fact that you married a Christian man means that you have somewhat assimilated but ... just like the way different views about trees ... different Jews have different opinions about what it means to assimilate.
I'd just add that I find many of the comments on here about how the tree needs to be avoided at all costs highly offensive, like the woman who married a Christian but resentfully pulls out the one foot tree for two hours ever year.
Anonymous
07/21/2015 19:10
Subject: Christmas Trees
Anonymous wrote:Like so:
Op here-- that is quite nice. Thank you for posting the picture.
Anonymous
07/21/2015 18:51
Subject: Christmas Trees
Like so:
Anonymous
07/21/2015 18:50
Subject: Christmas Trees
Quick solution: Get a SMALL tree.
OP sounds like she really doesn't want a 7-foot high, 5-foot wide symbol of someone else's religion in her living room.
Get a LITTLE one - like 1-2 feet tall. Call it "Larla's tree" to your kids, which will be special to her. Let SD decorate it herself. It will be a fun thing to do and not nearly the monstrosity I think you imagine it could be.
OP sounds like she really doesn't want a 7-foot high, 5-foot wide symbol of someone else's religion in her living room.
Get a LITTLE one - like 1-2 feet tall. Call it "Larla's tree" to your kids, which will be special to her. Let SD decorate it herself. It will be a fun thing to do and not nearly the monstrosity I think you imagine it could be.
Anonymous
07/21/2015 18:34
Subject: Christmas Trees
I see this is a long thread and I will admit I am not reading past OP's post - just giving my 2c.
We always had a tree growing up - 2 actually. One with the adult ornaments (hand blown glass with white lights) and a kids' with multi colored lights and random ornaments we made / were given to us. My family is not religious at all, but Christmas was a huge tradition oriented holiday for us.
Fast forward 30 years - my husband is Jewish, although not practicing. He knows how much the holiday of Christmas means to me, so we have a tree, and the kids help decorate. We also have a menorah because his family does practice and it's a big deal to them. In my family (my growing up family, and the new family I've made) we just love a tradition, and we love a celebration. It's totally secular to us.
We always had a tree growing up - 2 actually. One with the adult ornaments (hand blown glass with white lights) and a kids' with multi colored lights and random ornaments we made / were given to us. My family is not religious at all, but Christmas was a huge tradition oriented holiday for us.
Fast forward 30 years - my husband is Jewish, although not practicing. He knows how much the holiday of Christmas means to me, so we have a tree, and the kids help decorate. We also have a menorah because his family does practice and it's a big deal to them. In my family (my growing up family, and the new family I've made) we just love a tradition, and we love a celebration. It's totally secular to us.
Anonymous
07/21/2015 17:02
Subject: Christmas Trees
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It seems like a lot of posters on this thread are taking a much harder line than OP has in either direction. I've posted a couple of times to note that OP actually seems pretty reasonable and we have no reason to think her DH and SD are not reasonable. OP, just curious. Have you talked to your DH about this yet? What about your SD? I am interested to hear how this all shakes out. I hope you three can find some compromise that feels respectful to all three of you.
OP here--no, I haven't brought it up to him yet. I wanted to figure out the significance before I opened the conversation.
OP, I think it would be best to go ahead and have a discussion about this topic with your husband. There is no objective answer to the question of what the significance of a Christmas tree is. The Christmas tree tradition will mean different things to different people, so what it means to your husband and his daughter is all that matters here, not what it means to random people on the internet.
I agree with the PP that I hope you all can work out a plan for December that allows everyone in your family to be happy and comfortable in their home. Best wishes to you and your family, OP.
Anonymous
07/21/2015 16:41
Subject: Christmas Trees
Anonymous wrote:OP here--
Reading through the last 5 pages it seems that half the people believe a jewish home does not need to host a tree and half the people believe that a home in which a member is of a Christian faith should have a tree.
I go back and forth and can see both sides of the argument. On the one hand this is her home and she should feel comfortable. On the other, this is my home and I should feel comfortable. Yes, I am the older adult in this situation but that doesn't mean I can't have strong feelings about this. I suppose what makes me the older adult is how I choose to respond to my feelings.
My original questions were:
What is the meaning of the tree?
Why is the tree traditionally associated with Christianity?
From this thread I have learned that the tree is secular and that the tradition was taken from the pagan winter solstice. It seems that the tree isn't really related to the birth of Christ so I'm having a hard time understanding its significance.
If my SD would like to put a nativity scene on our dining room table next to the menorah, I have no issues or concerns. To me, that is a religious symbol and it acknowledges the Christmas holiday. I'm not sure why the nativity scene does not bother me as much as the tree.
Having never grown up celebrating Christmas and having a tree, you are never going to really get it, OP. The tree is a symbol of Christmas and the birth of Christ for many Christians. We put a star on the tree or an angel because that is part of the Christmas story. If your family is from Europe, you might have other Christmas traditions like an Advent wreath or calendar or celebrate the coming of the Christkind (Christ child) rather than Santa. Christmas is BIG in Europe and you will see how seriously people take their traditions there, regardless of how "secularly" some in the US treat it.
Anonymous
07/21/2015 16:26
Subject: Christmas Trees
I doubt DH is going to think the tree belongs in a bedroom.
Anonymous
07/21/2015 15:17
Subject: Christmas Trees
OP I think you should let her have a Christmas tree in her room. I'd be pretty sad and depressed not to celebrate at all when I had growing up. It's like having a stepmother who doesn't celebrate your birthday because they're Jehovah's Witness and doesn't allow you to celebrate either.
Anonymous
07/21/2015 15:11
Subject: Christmas Trees
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Please please please stick to your guns on this one. A Christmas tree is an overtly Christian symbol and it will only confuse your little ones, who already face enough pressure to assimilate. Your stepdaughter needs to respect your rules in your home. If she wants to celebrate Christmas, she can do it elsewhere.
The stepdaughter didn't bring it up; OP's DH did. He wants to have it in their home this Christmas and asked where they should put it, not whether they should have one. Those little ones are his children, too.
DH agreed to raise their kids a certain way. Now he's trying to change their agreement midstream. OP doesn't have to accept that.
He doesn't appear to be trying to change the way the children with OP are raised. Instead, he is honoring the beliefs of his child with his previous wife. That child is his just as much as the younger ones are.
I take it you're not jewish. Being a Jew means fighting against thousands of years of attempts to annihilate and assimilate your people into the dominant culture. That means drawing a hard line and not allowing your kids to dabble in other religions for fun and means maintaining a Jewish home. Husband is now moving the goalposts and trying to walk back his commitment to maintaining that Jewish home. That IS changing the way OP'a kids are being raised.
OP married a Christian who has kids from another marriage. Her children's sibs are Christians. If racial purity was important to her, she should have married another Jew.
And here come the anti-Semites who think that Jews are a distinct race...
Um. The only anti anything on this entire thread has been by the Jews opposed to Christmas trees.
Anonymous
07/21/2015 15:06
Subject: Christmas Trees
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Please please please stick to your guns on this one. A Christmas tree is an overtly Christian symbol and it will only confuse your little ones, who already face enough pressure to assimilate. Your stepdaughter needs to respect your rules in your home. If she wants to celebrate Christmas, she can do it elsewhere.
The stepdaughter didn't bring it up; OP's DH did. He wants to have it in their home this Christmas and asked where they should put it, not whether they should have one. Those little ones are his children, too.
DH agreed to raise their kids a certain way. Now he's trying to change their agreement midstream. OP doesn't have to accept that.
He doesn't appear to be trying to change the way the children with OP are raised. Instead, he is honoring the beliefs of his child with his previous wife. That child is his just as much as the younger ones are.
I take it you're not jewish. Being a Jew means fighting against thousands of years of attempts to annihilate and assimilate your people into the dominant culture. That means drawing a hard line and not allowing your kids to dabble in other religions for fun and means maintaining a Jewish home. Husband is now moving the goalposts and trying to walk back his commitment to maintaining that Jewish home. That IS changing the way OP'a kids are being raised.
OP married a Christian who has kids from another marriage. Her children's sibs are Christians. If racial purity was important to her, she should have married another Jew.
And here come the anti-Semites who think that Jews are a distinct race...
Anonymous
07/21/2015 14:38
Subject: Christmas Trees
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Please please please stick to your guns on this one. A Christmas tree is an overtly Christian symbol and it will only confuse your little ones, who already face enough pressure to assimilate. Your stepdaughter needs to respect your rules in your home. If she wants to celebrate Christmas, she can do it elsewhere.
The stepdaughter didn't bring it up; OP's DH did. He wants to have it in their home this Christmas and asked where they should put it, not whether they should have one. Those little ones are his children, too.
DH agreed to raise their kids a certain way. Now he's trying to change their agreement midstream. OP doesn't have to accept that.
He doesn't appear to be trying to change the way the children with OP are raised. Instead, he is honoring the beliefs of his child with his previous wife. That child is his just as much as the younger ones are.
I take it you're not jewish. Being a Jew means fighting against thousands of years of attempts to annihilate and assimilate your people into the dominant culture. That means drawing a hard line and not allowing your kids to dabble in other religions for fun and means maintaining a Jewish home. Husband is now moving the goalposts and trying to walk back his commitment to maintaining that Jewish home. That IS changing the way OP'a kids are being raised.
OP married a Christian who has kids from another marriage. Her children's sibs are Christians. If racial purity was important to her, she should have married another Jew.
Anonymous
07/21/2015 13:55
Subject: Christmas Trees
OP, I am a Catholic with a lot of Jewish friends and family members, so I think I understand both sides of this coin, and I'm not one of the one judging in either direction. I have family members that were in mixed marriages that took a "no, never" approach to Christmas trees (even though, in that case, the children were not being raised Jewish), so I get that instinct.
I just wanted to say that Christmas is pretty important to me as both a religious holiday and a secular celebration. The times that I have had to spend Christmas away from my family have been pretty depressing for me, and I would be more depressed by not having a tree, which I (like many Christians) find to be a fun, cheering thing that brings with it many good memories.
I don't know what your step-daughter's relationship with her mother and the other side of her family is, and what her plans are for her holiday, or even if she responds at all like me to the holidays. If she is spending the Christmas season with you guys and away from the other portion of her family for the first time, she *might* be feeling a little lonely and depressed. (Or maybe she'll be thrilled to be away from it all!). And the tree might help with that sadness. I guess my point is just that you might want to suss out how things are going with her in the house, and what her plans are for the holidays, before taking a hard line position on this sort of thing either way.
Also, my guess is that your husband is really excited about having her move in, that he is thinking ahead to the holidays and all the other ways that having her in the house is going to change your lives.
I just wanted to say that Christmas is pretty important to me as both a religious holiday and a secular celebration. The times that I have had to spend Christmas away from my family have been pretty depressing for me, and I would be more depressed by not having a tree, which I (like many Christians) find to be a fun, cheering thing that brings with it many good memories.
I don't know what your step-daughter's relationship with her mother and the other side of her family is, and what her plans are for her holiday, or even if she responds at all like me to the holidays. If she is spending the Christmas season with you guys and away from the other portion of her family for the first time, she *might* be feeling a little lonely and depressed. (Or maybe she'll be thrilled to be away from it all!). And the tree might help with that sadness. I guess my point is just that you might want to suss out how things are going with her in the house, and what her plans are for the holidays, before taking a hard line position on this sort of thing either way.
Also, my guess is that your husband is really excited about having her move in, that he is thinking ahead to the holidays and all the other ways that having her in the house is going to change your lives.