Anonymous
06/26/2015 15:21
Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?
Anonymous wrote:This is a ridiculous line of reasoning that is false upon examination. What is harder:
1. You must accept and forgive, and you must come to this conclusion on your own, dealing with your roiling feelings of grief, anger at the senselessness, disbelief that the unlikely has indeed happened, questioning why bad things happen to good people, and a natural urge to exact revenge. You must deal with all of this, with no mental crutch, and realize that despite the tragedy and your suffering, that man is basically good, and that behaving as a good person means accepting the tragedy moving on.
2. You must accept and forgive, because God has a plan and this is all a part of it. You may not understand it, but you must have faith that this is for the greater good. Your loved ones are in heaven, they are with Jesus now. Death is not permanent, this life is only a test. You'll see them again when you move on from this life to the next.
Oh I wish it was as simple as option number 2. But I am not going to surrender my intelligence just so that I can be comfortably numb.
Huh? You don't understand humans, human nature, or the nature of belief.
You think God just plops forgiveness and acceptance into the passive believers' brains? Or that just by chanting what you call "some mantra" or
"a crutch" about forgiveness and acceptance and heaven, that all the pain, anger, disbelief and urges for revenge will just go away?
Don't be ridiculous.
Of course believers have to work on their own deal with roiling feelings of grief, anger at the senselessness, disbelief that the unlikely has indeed happened, questioning why bad things happen to good people, and a natural urge to exact revenge. Add to this, bellievers may have to deal with the challenge to faith that OP is clearly dying to document but hasn't succeeded in doing.
Also: plenty of brillian folks believe in #2 without surrenduring their intelligence. On the other hand, your poor reasoning skills... oh, never mind.
Anonymous
06/26/2015 15:11
Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:NP. Like others here, I find the outpouring of sympathy and forgiveness inspiring instead of discouraging. Especially the forgiveness, which is so hard yet so fundamental to their faith.
It's far more worthy of respect for someone who confronted the tragedy, go through the phases of grief, and eventually come to acceptance and forgiveness, than it is for the baseless mantra of "God teaches us to forgive". The later involves minimal effort, it is not a virtue to blindly accept how one should feel. In fact it is slavery of the mind, to relinquish control of your rationality, to isolate your human emotions, and to believe that it is so becomes some authority told you it is so.
The victims' relatives weren't chanting mantras of "God teaches us to forgive." They were saying "I forgive." Can you see the difference?
Like others here have said, "I forgive" is a difficult statement to make when for many people the natural first impulse is to seek retaliation. It may take time for them to work towards true forgiveness. But thank goodness that not everybody is looking for pity and retribution. Major respect.
Anonymous
06/26/2015 15:05
Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:NP. Like others here, I find the outpouring of sympathy and forgiveness inspiring instead of discouraging. Especially the forgiveness, which is so hard yet so fundamental to their faith.
It's far more worthy of respect for someone who confronted the tragedy, go through the phases of grief, and eventually come to acceptance and forgiveness, than it is for the baseless mantra of "God teaches us to forgive". The later involves minimal effort, it is not a virtue to blindly accept how one should feel. In fact it is slavery of the mind, to relinquish control of your rationality, to isolate your human emotions, and to believe that it is so becomes some authority told you it is so.
LOL? The fact you call it minimal effort proves you have no idea how it works.
It takes a lot of effort to say something that is so counter-intuitive to the anger and hurt and confusion and trauma that a decent, normal person understandably feels when a loved one is brutally murdered by a madman in a church during Bible study.
Atheists can't imagine the mental anguish it takes for a Christian to do something like that, but Christians know they are doing it because God teaches them that this is the right things to do. They don't worry about their own feelings -- that would be selfish. They think about what God wants and they know that it is forgiving thine enemies - not later once you've worked it through psychologically, but as soon as possible after the heinous act. They know that like their loved ones who were so horribly taken from them, they will be facing God some day and God will reward them for doing the right thing at this extremely difficult moment of their lives.
This is a ridiculous line of reasoning that is false upon examination. What is harder:
1. You must accept and forgive, and you must come to this conclusion on your own, dealing with your roiling feelings of grief, anger at the senselessness, disbelief that the unlikely has indeed happened, questioning why bad things happen to good people, and a natural urge to exact revenge. You must deal with all of this, with no mental crutch, and realize that despite the tragedy and your suffering, that man is basically good, and that behaving as a good person means accepting the tragedy moving on.
2. You must accept and forgive, because God has a plan and this is all a part of it. You may not understand it, but you must have faith that this is for the greater good. Your loved ones are in heaven, they are with Jesus now. Death is not permanent, this life is only a test. You'll see them again when you move on from this life to the next.
Oh I wish it was as simple as option number 2. But I am not going to surrender my intelligence just so that I can be comfortably numb.
Anonymous
06/26/2015 13:51
Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:NP. Like others here, I find the outpouring of sympathy and forgiveness inspiring instead of discouraging. Especially the forgiveness, which is so hard yet so fundamental to their faith.
It's far more worthy of respect for someone who confronted the tragedy, go through the phases of grief, and eventually come to acceptance and forgiveness, than it is for the baseless mantra of "God teaches us to forgive". The later involves minimal effort, it is not a virtue to blindly accept how one should feel. In fact it is slavery of the mind, to relinquish control of your rationality, to isolate your human emotions, and to believe that it is so becomes some authority told you it is so.
LOL? The fact you call it minimal effort proves you have no idea how it works.
It takes a lot of effort to say something that is so counter-intuitive to the anger and hurt and confusion and trauma that a decent, normal person understandably feels when a loved one is brutally murdered by a madman in a church during Bible study.
Atheists can't imagine the mental anguish it takes for a Christian to do something like that, but Christians know they are doing it because God teaches them that this is the right things to do. They don't worry about their own feelings -- that would be selfish. They think about what God wants and they know that it is forgiving thine enemies - not later once you've worked it through psychologically, but as soon as possible after the heinous act. They know that like their loved ones who were so horribly taken from them, they will be facing God some day and God will reward them for doing the right thing at this extremely difficult moment of their lives.
Anonymous
06/26/2015 13:21
Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:NP. Like others here, I find the outpouring of sympathy and forgiveness inspiring instead of discouraging. Especially the forgiveness, which is so hard yet so fundamental to their faith.
It's far more worthy of respect for someone who confronted the tragedy, go through the phases of grief, and eventually come to acceptance and forgiveness, than it is for the baseless mantra of "God teaches us to forgive". The later involves minimal effort, it is not a virtue to blindly accept how one should feel. In fact it is slavery of the mind, to relinquish control of your rationality, to isolate your human emotions, and to believe that it is so becomes some authority told you it is so.
LOL? The fact you call it minimal effort proves you have no idea how it works.
Anonymous
06/26/2015 13:06
Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It appears the answer is no. Can we move on from the Christian bashing now?
How is questioning a belief by asking for evidence considered bashing?
Prove to me, for example, that Satan is alive and kicking.
It's bashing when it's not relevant to the question asked.
depends on how you define relevant in this case, no?
What is faith? How can you doubt something that's not based on evidence?
Are these questions in the "bashing" category?
Anonymous
06/26/2015 12:41
Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?
Anonymous wrote:NP. Like others here, I find the outpouring of sympathy and forgiveness inspiring instead of discouraging. Especially the forgiveness, which is so hard yet so fundamental to their faith.
It's far more worthy of respect for someone who confronted the tragedy, go through the phases of grief, and eventually come to acceptance and forgiveness, than it is for the baseless mantra of "God teaches us to forgive". The later involves minimal effort, it is not a virtue to blindly accept how one should feel. In fact it is slavery of the mind, to relinquish control of your rationality, to isolate your human emotions, and to believe that it is so becomes some authority told you it is so.
Anonymous
06/26/2015 12:23
Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It appears the answer is no. Can we move on from the Christian bashing now?
How is questioning a belief by asking for evidence considered bashing?
Prove to me, for example, that Satan is alive and kicking.
It's bashing when it's not relevant to the question asked.
Anonymous
06/26/2015 11:49
Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?
Anonymous wrote:It appears the answer is no. Can we move on from the Christian bashing now?
How is questioning a belief by asking for evidence considered bashing?
Prove to me, for example, that Satan is alive and kicking.
Anonymous
06/26/2015 10:17
Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?
It appears the answer is no. Can we move on from the Christian bashing now?
Anonymous
06/26/2015 10:14
Subject: Re:Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?
Yep it's gotta be Satan at work. That's the only logical explanation here. 
Anonymous
06/26/2015 10:13
Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?
And as has been said many times before -- God can't or doesn't fix everything for us --he only fixes some stuff, sometimes. God cures some cancers but he can't or doesn't stop the cancer from happening in the first place and he doesn't cure everyone who has cancer. Sometimes people who don't even pray or go to church have their cancer cured, while people who are loyal Christians and have a whole church full of people praying for them, die anyhow. It often appears quite random.
But even if God decides not to answer your prayers, he's always there to comfort you, if you believe in him. If you don't believe in him, your life may or may not be like that of a person who believes, in terms of health and prosperity, but you definitely won't have God to comfort you when things don't work out the way you'd like.
How does ANYONE know this?
You're all pulling these "explanations" out of your asses, folks.
You don't know ANYTHING!!!!!
God will cure one person's cancer yet will allow a 5 yo to die of leukemia? really? That's a vindictive god. But I'm sure there's an excuse for that. Perhaps the 5 yo was an atheist?
comfort? sure . . . lots of comfort in believing
There's comfort in believing in Santa, too. But once a child finds out Santa isn't real, where's the comfort then?
a story is a story is a story . . .
Anonymous
06/26/2015 10:08
Subject: Re:Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?
Anonymous wrote:Good grief, the "problem" of God permitting evil was answered CENTURIES ago.
Those who whine "why does God permit this?" are only advertising their theological ignorance.
Christianity does not postulate that the world is a good place.
Christianity does not claim that God is presently in control of events; when Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, Jesus rejected the offer but did not claim that it was spurious.
Jesus Christ would not have taught us to pray that God's Will be done here on Earth as it is in Heaven, unless God's Will was not being done here on Earth.
There are numerous instances in the Old Testament where Israel and others go against God's Will. Therefore, it is possible for humans to act in opposition to God, without him dictating their actions. Furthermore, the very notion of Lucifer's Fall indicates strongly that God is not in control of all things.
Jesus Christ says that Satan has no hold on him, presumably because he has not sinned. Therefore, Satan does have a hold on everyone who has sinned, namely, the rest of us on the planet.
It is thus a massive error to blame God for any specific evil act, or for evil in general.
Blame Satan, and blame his evil human minions.
Satan
lol
Anonymous
06/26/2015 10:02
Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?
NP. Like others here, I find the outpouring of sympathy and forgiveness inspiring instead of discouraging. Especially the forgiveness, which is so hard yet so fundamental to their faith.
Anonymous
06/26/2015 10:00
Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?
Anonymous wrote:Not the PP but I do argue against any and all Gods. This happens to be a christian dominated forum, so it is typically the Christian God I am arguing against. But the arguments work in the context of any religion. So it's not that we are railing against your God, but that *you* think your God is the one and only, so therefore we must be arguing against him and only him.
This doesn't even make sense as a rational for trashing the Christian religion. You're trashing the Christian religion, so own it.