Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:BIL was out of line. There are a million gentle ways to ask a child to get down from a couch. Trying to grab her legs? I would have freaked and I'm amazed at the amount of composure you showed.

OP here. The other thing is, all he said was "no...NO..." before advancing toward her and grabbing her. It is possible that my 4YO didn't know what he was asking of her.

OP you are making a lot of excuses when in your own words you did not see what happened.

" (I was with my back turned, helping my other child with something, so did not see all of it directly): My 4YO apparently climbed onto the arm rest of the couch and was standing on it. My BIL firmly told her "no...no...." and she did not comply. He then moved toward her with the intention of physically removing her from the couch. By the time I realized that there was something happening and turned around, she was on the seat of the couch crying and trying to crawl away, and he was standing over her grabbing at her legs."

Perhaps he was pointing at the couch, perhaps he was not. Unless you allow your kids to stand on the arm of the couch at home, which I doubt, even at 4 your child had to know she was doing something was wrong and therefore she knew what the no, no was about.
If you do let her stand on the arm of your own couch, then maybe she was confused and that brings up issues of what is proper and what is not in someone else's home.

I would have stayed in the room with my child to understand what happened. Asked her questions to find out why she was crying (after all you had your back turned and could not see what was happening). I probably would have reminded her not to climb on the couch and that Uncle BIL was trying to make sure that she stays safe and did not mean to scare/upset her.

In the end you have taught both your kids that Uncle BIL is mean and scary.

What you taught your BIL is that you have no respect for him or his rules and when you don't like something you are just going to walk away.
If your child was in harms way, of course remove her, but some tears from being reprimanded by a family member is not a reason to flee.

You should have de-escalated the situation and if you really thought he crossed a line you should have spoken to him about it in private.

So I agree with the majority. Your child was in the wrong. BIL was right in addressing the situation but then you escalated as he did in return. So in the end you all exhibited poor behavior except only one of the three of you is 4.
It is nice that your SIL and BIL apologized but I think you and your child should also have apologized.

Your DD should have said "Uncle BIL, I am sorry I was standing on the couch. I won't do it again". In fact had you calmed your daughter down and asked her to do that in the moment your BIL might have apologized then and there as well.

You caused the drama, OP.

I do allow my kids to climb on the furniture. Of course if they are in danger of falling off/hurting themselves I don't allow it. But if they're playing around, getting boisterous it's all fine. These are just crappy ikea couches and it's no big deal to me. You're only young once!

Anonymous wrote:I am seriously amazed by the holier than thou posters who claim a 0 tolerance policy for kids on couches. That is nuts. My kids are allowed on the furniture and I'm not stupid enough to think that makes them rude and undisciplined.

Sitting on the couch is one thing. Laying down on the couch is acceptable. However Climbing all over, sitting or standing on the armrest or backside of the couch is not. Do you allow yours to climb all over the couch?

Anonymous wrote:OP you both sound like a couple freeloaders. Stay in a home where you know ahead of time difference in parenting, therefore they are not going to tolerate your snowflakes doing things their kids know not to do.

You run from the room instead of backing up the uncle

Daddy runs from the room after he is "yelled" at.

You both sound like children who need to grow up, not adults you should be

Simple: kids do not belong jumping on others furniture. if you allow it at home, thats great but they should be taught it doesnt happen in others homes. I will never forget the interview I had for childcare where the mom allowed all 3 of her kids to WALK, jump on and crawl all over my couch throughout the interview. I had to pick my jaw up from the ground and be thankful she found relatives who were going to watch those kids. no way, no how am I going to allow children to act like animals climbing all over the furniture. Ridiculous.

I suggest you not go and stay there again. If you cant handle your own family telling your child to stop doing something they dont allow, you have no business staying in their home.

You are a childcare provider? O. M. G.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a very relaxed parent. You have to be with a bunch of boys or you will be yelling all the time.

OP, you were way out of line. You over reacted. You escalated the situation. Your child's behavior was out of control. If that infraction resulted in BIL yelling then I am sure there was a lot of wildness by your kids prior to that point that really tried his patience.

I am guessing if he posted here his side would be very different than what you posted, particularly with regards to her getting off the couch arm. I am sure she did not compliantly step down when asked, and the grabbing for her legs leads me to believe there was likely some defiant response from her coupled with her launching herself or running across his couch on the way down.

My kids would have gotten scolded by me after that exchange and then made to help clean or something similar as an apology for being rude to someone else's house.

I kind of agree with this PP on some things. I feel like there must be more to the story. Even when my temper is at its shortest (and I think I have a fairly short temper relative to most people), I would not get angry that quickly at someone else's child unless there had been previous incidents that day that had worn me down.

I am having a hard time picturing what "grabbing at her legs" means. Was he trying to pick her up so he could put her on the floor? Was he using her legs to try to pull her off the couch? Was she kicking her legs or running away so that he couldn't get her? I'm just confused.

OTOH, IMO it was out of line for him to touch your child and certainly the yelling and what he said was way over the top. I guess I just have more of a sense of boundaries with my niece and nephews. For something as trivial as climbing up on a sofa arm, I would have said to you "hey, Jane, do you think Jamie should be standing on the arm of the sofa? I'm afraid she might fall" and then let you do the removing. If it was a toddler who wouldn't have understood (or couldn't be expected to comply with) a request to get down I might have picked her up and set her on the floor.

I think this says everything about the people responding that she had it coming. You're picturing yourself as the BIL and thinking, "well, she must be a little brat for him to have gotten so angry." I grew up with a father with a very short fuse. If you saw him in action, you would think that often his reactions to normal inconveniences were completely out of proportion and at times inappropriate. Please don't assume that every parent's reaction is going to be like yours. This sounds like OP encountered another parent who didn't just have a different parenting style, but who is just not in control of his emotions when dealing with a small child. OP, I think you did the right thing to accept his apology and stay and I might even stay again. But you need to make clear with him and your sister that, while you're fine with them correcting your children when they are misbehaving, you are not fine with them getting physical with them when they are angry.

You guys have very, very different ideas about discipline, obviously. Don't "ever" stay there with them again. Hotels from now on.

Anonymous wrote:I am seriously amazed by the holier than thou posters who claim a 0 tolerance policy for kids on couches. That is nuts. My kids are allowed on the furniture and I'm not stupid enough to think that makes them rude and undisciplined.

Kids are allowed on furniture. They just need to be seated. This is not a difficult concept for a neuro-typical 4 year old and if your kids have convinced you otherwise, they are totally pulling one over on you.

OP here again. To clarify about the leg-grabbing--I don't think that he removed her from the couch--I think she got herself down onto the seat part when she saw him moving toward her. She scrambled down, and he grabbed at her as she was scrambling down. By the time I turned around, she was on the seat part face-up with her legs facing him, and he was leaning over the arm rest trying to grab at her legs.

I am seriously amazed by the holier than thou posters who claim a 0 tolerance policy for kids on couches. That is nuts. My kids are allowed on the furniture and I'm not stupid enough to think that makes them rude and undisciplined.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a very relaxed parent. You have to be with a bunch of boys or you will be yelling all the time.

OP, you were way out of line. You over reacted. You escalated the situation. Your child's behavior was out of control. If that infraction resulted in BIL yelling then I am sure there was a lot of wildness by your kids prior to that point that really tried his patience.

I am guessing if he posted here his side would be very different than what you posted, particularly with regards to her getting off the couch arm. I am sure she did not compliantly step down when asked, and the grabbing for her legs leads me to believe there was likely some defiant response from her coupled with her launching herself or running across his couch on the way down.

My kids would have gotten scolded by me after that exchange and then made to help clean or something similar as an apology for being rude to someone else's house.

I kind of agree with this PP on some things. I feel like there must be more to the story. Even when my temper is at its shortest (and I think I have a fairly short temper relative to most people), I would not get angry that quickly at someone else's child unless there had been previous incidents that day that had worn me down.

I am having a hard time picturing what "grabbing at her legs" means. Was he trying to pick her up so he could put her on the floor? Was he using her legs to try to pull her off the couch? Was she kicking her legs or running away so that he couldn't get her? I'm just confused.

OTOH, IMO it was out of line for him to touch your child and certainly the yelling and what he said was way over the top. I guess I just have more of a sense of boundaries with my niece and nephews. For something as trivial as climbing up on a sofa arm, I would have said to you "hey, Jane, do you think Jamie should be standing on the arm of the sofa? I'm afraid she might fall" and then let you do the removing. If it was a toddler who wouldn't have understood (or couldn't be expected to comply with) a request to get down I might have picked her up and set her on the floor.

In my house I get to decide whether guests can stand on my furniture.

OP you both sound like a couple freeloaders. Stay in a home where you know ahead of time difference in parenting, therefore they are not going to tolerate your snowflakes doing things their kids know not to do.

You run from the room instead of backing up the uncle

Daddy runs from the room after he is "yelled" at.

You both sound like children who need to grow up, not adults you should be

Simple: kids do not belong jumping on others furniture. if you allow it at home, thats great but they should be taught it doesnt happen in others homes. I will never forget the interview I had for childcare where the mom allowed all 3 of her kids to WALK, jump on and crawl all over my couch throughout the interview. I had to pick my jaw up from the ground and be thankful she found relatives who were going to watch those kids. no way, no how am I going to allow children to act like animals climbing all over the furniture. Ridiculous.

I suggest you not go and stay there again. If you cant handle your own family telling your child to stop doing something they dont allow, you have no business staying in their home.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I assume that everyone here responding would insist that their children use their words when confronting a peer, so why is it that so many of you are just fine with the BIL angrily grabbing at a four year old girl's legs to the point that she is in tears? He didn't say, "please don't stand on the couch" or "get off the couch" or even "get off the damn couch." He said "No, no!" and then grabbed her. Do all your kids hop to attention the instant you say "no!" and do exactly what you're asking them to read your mind about? Or are they lost in their own thoughts doing their own thing and it takes them a second to process? I'm guessing the latter. That's normal four YO behavior. Even when doing something that upon reflection they should know not to do.

If he had unemotionally picked her up and set her down, that's no problem. But getting worked up about a four year old on the arm of your sofa and then grabbing at her when she's clearly scared of you and trying to get away is completely unacceptable.

The fact that he CAME AND APOLOGIZED should tell everyone what they need to know about this interaction. He was clearly in the wrong or he wouldn't have done so.

This man is clearly not in control of his temper. I feel sorry for his kids.

If my 4 year old was standing on someone's couch, I would be fine if someone removed him. He absolutely knows that isn't the right way to act, so he doesn't get warnings to comply.

I'm the first PP here. And so would I. Except after removing her, he was angrily grabbing at her. That I would NOT be fine with.

I wouldn't be wild about it, but I also wouldn't freak out. The adults acted badly here. All of them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I assume that everyone here responding would insist that their children use their words when confronting a peer, so why is it that so many of you are just fine with the BIL angrily grabbing at a four year old girl's legs to the point that she is in tears? He didn't say, "please don't stand on the couch" or "get off the couch" or even "get off the damn couch." He said "No, no!" and then grabbed her. Do all your kids hop to attention the instant you say "no!" and do exactly what you're asking them to read your mind about? Or are they lost in their own thoughts doing their own thing and it takes them a second to process? I'm guessing the latter. That's normal four YO behavior. Even when doing something that upon reflection they should know not to do.

If he had unemotionally picked her up and set her down, that's no problem. But getting worked up about a four year old on the arm of your sofa and then grabbing at her when she's clearly scared of you and trying to get away is completely unacceptable.

The fact that he CAME AND APOLOGIZED should tell everyone what they need to know about this interaction. He was clearly in the wrong or he wouldn't have done so.

This man is clearly not in control of his temper. I feel sorry for his kids.

I would bet he apologized because they were packing up to leave. Drama all around.

If you read the OP it sounds like he didn't even know they were packing up. Just that they had retreated to the guest room because he had reduced two children to tears and screamed in his BIL's face.

OP here. That's right; he came right up to the room a few moments later and apologized. So it wasn't at my SIL's prompting (she wasn't home). And no, he didn't know we were packing; just that we had gone to the room. And we really weren't packing--I shouldn't have said that earlier. We were just discussing packing up and leaving. Although packing up would have meant just putting the bags in the car, because basically everything was still in the bags.

Anyway, I guess I did come here because I was hoping for support, for validation that what my BIL did was wrong. I get it that many of you don't seem to agree.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you're going to get a lot of responses on here in support of the BIL because frankly there are a lot of people on here like him. But in my opinion what he did was totally unacceptable. You don't get physical with someone else's kids. If she was on the couch and he didn't like it, and she didn't get down after he told her, he should have said to you or your DH (who were both right there, right??) "get your kid off the couch, i just told her to get down and she didn't listen"

I agree. Fine that he asked her to get down off the armrest. Not fine that after she was sitting on the sofa where she was supposed to, that he was grabbing at her legs. The need for physical correction was over and done once she was off the armrest. The rest is just punitive for no reason. The yelling is over the top.

She wasn't sitting on the sofa, she was at best crawling around on it.

Doesn't matter to me. Being on the armrest is a safety issue and possibly a damage issue. But being on the seat of a sofa is fine. No need to touch her after that point.