Anonymous
03/18/2015 14:31
Subject: How to talk race and diversity with a preschooler?
OP, do you live in DC?
I took my (white) son to the Woolworth's lunch counter, and we talked about how people had been mean to people with black and brown skin, and had not let them sit there, and in other places. And we talked about how there were people who didn't think that was okay, and how they were very brave and stood up for their rights. So not just a message about "everyone is the same inside, all people are equal" -- which is important, but *also* a specific message about how people are not always treated equally, and that it's specifically black and brown people who've had bad treatment.
And we've had other opportunities to have that conversation -- e.g. his school did a bunch of activities for Black history month, which allowed us to have conversations about *why* there is Black history month.
To the PP who made the analogy about hitting with a stick (and also, I'm thinking maybe you are the same person who was concerned that white parents weren't being emphatic? serious? enough about this) (aarrgh, not sure if I'm talking to one person or more here, anyway, here goes); I think what you said about this being an emphatic and serious discussion is definitely how I'd handle it.
But I think I wouldn't discipline my child in the same way I would if he hit someone, and here's my thinking. My kid knows it's not okay to hit someone, and pretty much our who society is on board with that. If grown-ups do it, they go to prison. It's reinforced really well, everywhere.
But I think it's maybe easier for kids to make mistakes about racism, or to not know that what they are doing is wrong -- because we're really *not* clear, as a society, that it's not okay to be racist. People get sent to jail for hurting people, oh, except if those people are black men. There's socially condoned racism all around us. So when my kid makes that kind of mistake, I see my job as teaching more than disciplining, if that makes sense? I hate to punish a kid *when the kid doesn't understand they are doing something wrong* -- but it doesn't mean I don't think it warrants a serious and emphatic (and immediate) conversation.
I took my (white) son to the Woolworth's lunch counter, and we talked about how people had been mean to people with black and brown skin, and had not let them sit there, and in other places. And we talked about how there were people who didn't think that was okay, and how they were very brave and stood up for their rights. So not just a message about "everyone is the same inside, all people are equal" -- which is important, but *also* a specific message about how people are not always treated equally, and that it's specifically black and brown people who've had bad treatment.
And we've had other opportunities to have that conversation -- e.g. his school did a bunch of activities for Black history month, which allowed us to have conversations about *why* there is Black history month.
To the PP who made the analogy about hitting with a stick (and also, I'm thinking maybe you are the same person who was concerned that white parents weren't being emphatic? serious? enough about this) (aarrgh, not sure if I'm talking to one person or more here, anyway, here goes); I think what you said about this being an emphatic and serious discussion is definitely how I'd handle it.
But I think I wouldn't discipline my child in the same way I would if he hit someone, and here's my thinking. My kid knows it's not okay to hit someone, and pretty much our who society is on board with that. If grown-ups do it, they go to prison. It's reinforced really well, everywhere.
But I think it's maybe easier for kids to make mistakes about racism, or to not know that what they are doing is wrong -- because we're really *not* clear, as a society, that it's not okay to be racist. People get sent to jail for hurting people, oh, except if those people are black men. There's socially condoned racism all around us. So when my kid makes that kind of mistake, I see my job as teaching more than disciplining, if that makes sense? I hate to punish a kid *when the kid doesn't understand they are doing something wrong* -- but it doesn't mean I don't think it warrants a serious and emphatic (and immediate) conversation.
Anonymous
03/18/2015 13:40
Subject: How to talk race and diversity with a preschooler?
OP here. Wow, wow, wow--what a thread to come back to! 
First, thanks to all who offered context and/or specific suggestions, and thanks to those who validated that I should indeed be concerned about this. Not to worry--we have absolutely addressed it head-on when it's come up, in no uncertain terms (but potentially not in terms that our child fully grasps--the conversation has largely been in the vein that a few PPs suggested, talking about how we are all the same inside [I appreciate the perspectives that this is a white privilege response, PPs, and think shifting the conversation to being about how everyone is unique vs. how everyone is the same makes a lot of sense--thank you] and reminding him of all of his (and our) friends of different colors. The note about his best friend being black was not intended to mean "so clearly he's not racist," but rather to note that we're not talking about a kid in a white community who has never personally encountered anyone of color. In fact, we live in one of the most diverse cities in the country in one of its more integrated middle (and mixed)-income neighborhoods, so his daily life involves interacting with people of all colors and creeds and means. I will think about ways to make sure he understands that this is a bigger deal, though. We do want to address the source of the ideas vs. just shaming him into not speaking these thoughts, though. That's my much bigger concern.
- What we did for MLK Day: nothing explicitly for the day itself, but I had forgotten a biggie: DS heard the end of an NPR piece on Claudette Colvin a few weeks ago and asked a lot of questions about that; we gave him our best approximation of the Rosa Parks story instead [the real one with the civil rights activism context] since I didn't know the Colvin story. At the time I thought it was a bit over his head--he kept referring to it as "that time when all the people on the bus were yelling and the police came." But possibly that factored in? (Maybe we totally screwed up our recounting of that story??) It's been on my to-do list to find a book on it for him so will bump that higher on the list. Our city has also been at the heart of a large number of protests and actions around the Brown and Garner murders so we have talked with him somewhat about that, although in very general terms (because of the violent nature of their deaths and his age).
- We do say black and white in our house and not light and dark skin, so that language must be coming from somewhere else. I had not planned to talk to school about it but have changed my mind after reading through this thread--particularly given that his best buddy is black and they are joined at the hip for most of the school day, I wonder if it is being directed at his friend (or at them both) from other kids during the day at some point? He's pretty supervised whenever he's with us, and I think we'd have picked up on a source there.
Thank you all--and feel free to continue passing along any particularly good resources that we or school could use to support this conversation.
First, thanks to all who offered context and/or specific suggestions, and thanks to those who validated that I should indeed be concerned about this. Not to worry--we have absolutely addressed it head-on when it's come up, in no uncertain terms (but potentially not in terms that our child fully grasps--the conversation has largely been in the vein that a few PPs suggested, talking about how we are all the same inside [I appreciate the perspectives that this is a white privilege response, PPs, and think shifting the conversation to being about how everyone is unique vs. how everyone is the same makes a lot of sense--thank you] and reminding him of all of his (and our) friends of different colors. The note about his best friend being black was not intended to mean "so clearly he's not racist," but rather to note that we're not talking about a kid in a white community who has never personally encountered anyone of color. In fact, we live in one of the most diverse cities in the country in one of its more integrated middle (and mixed)-income neighborhoods, so his daily life involves interacting with people of all colors and creeds and means. I will think about ways to make sure he understands that this is a bigger deal, though. We do want to address the source of the ideas vs. just shaming him into not speaking these thoughts, though. That's my much bigger concern.
- What we did for MLK Day: nothing explicitly for the day itself, but I had forgotten a biggie: DS heard the end of an NPR piece on Claudette Colvin a few weeks ago and asked a lot of questions about that; we gave him our best approximation of the Rosa Parks story instead [the real one with the civil rights activism context] since I didn't know the Colvin story. At the time I thought it was a bit over his head--he kept referring to it as "that time when all the people on the bus were yelling and the police came." But possibly that factored in? (Maybe we totally screwed up our recounting of that story??) It's been on my to-do list to find a book on it for him so will bump that higher on the list. Our city has also been at the heart of a large number of protests and actions around the Brown and Garner murders so we have talked with him somewhat about that, although in very general terms (because of the violent nature of their deaths and his age).
- We do say black and white in our house and not light and dark skin, so that language must be coming from somewhere else. I had not planned to talk to school about it but have changed my mind after reading through this thread--particularly given that his best buddy is black and they are joined at the hip for most of the school day, I wonder if it is being directed at his friend (or at them both) from other kids during the day at some point? He's pretty supervised whenever he's with us, and I think we'd have picked up on a source there.
Thank you all--and feel free to continue passing along any particularly good resources that we or school could use to support this conversation.
Anonymous
03/18/2015 13:37
Subject: How to talk race and diversity with a preschooler?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The all caps and VERY CLEAR RIGHT AWAY comment clearly gave many of is the impression of someone swooping in on their child with the kind of severe reaction that gets a kid's attention and lets the kid know they have done something very wrong. In addition, the fact that the other discussion we've suggested strike you as insufficient shows they you want the parent to be really emphatic. This is a 3.5 year old. Plenty of kids will do what it takes to avoid that kind of strong reaction from mom again, which means not saying anything racist to mom but doesn't mean not thinking it or saying it elsewhere.
Ok -- let me be clear, I do not believe that emphatic suggests yelling, shaming, screaming, or being mean.
By, emphatic I mean very clear, very straightforward, and that this is a very important topic.
To me, the subject of how we talk about and think about people is just as important as safety issues, does anyone think being emphatic about safety issues is wrong?
I was emphatic with my child about this issue, and we have an open dialogue. It started when DC was a preschooler.
I truly do not understand your line of thinking -- it really baffles my mind.
You are emphatic about not running into the street because what you care about is action. With racism we care about thought, not just deeds. You can't force a person to have a particular thought. You have to teach it, show them, make sure they come back to you with doubts and fears.
Everything you said about running in the street applies to race. And I hate to break it to you, but racism is not just thoughts, it's also actions. Just like I teach that we don't play with fire and later talk about fire hurting and consequences of actions, same thing applies to race. Makes no sense to think that telling a kid not to identify people by race is going to prevent them from feeling comfortable talking to you about thoughts and fears, etc. related to race. it is an ongoing education and conversation....why is that hard to understand.
Anonymous
03/18/2015 13:31
Subject: How to talk race and diversity with a preschooler?
Anonymous wrote:I don't know if it is just semantics. Some parents believe you should tell your child what to think on certain issues and that is that.
I don't think that works and that to install the right values you have to lead the child there, not use force.
You are responding to me, and I agree with your approach, with the added caveat that in these instances, I am going to continue to lead until they where I want them to be. So, it's a more gentle approach, but the end result is the same. It isn't like I can say: some people like blue, some people like red, but it's all ok and you can choose which you like when you are ready to do so. This is the approach I take on religion, for example. But, with this type of racial statements (very normal for little kids, by the way!), there IS a right answer. Call it leading or call it forcing, but the job isn't done until they realize that we shouldn't treat people differently based on race and we should call it out when others do it and work on ourselves when we notice it happening inadvertently.
The important thing is that it be discussed.
Anonymous
03/18/2015 13:26
Subject: How to talk race and diversity with a preschooler?
I don't know if it is just semantics. Some parents believe you should tell your child what to think on certain issues and that is that.
I don't think that works and that to install the right values you have to lead the child there, not use force.
I don't think that works and that to install the right values you have to lead the child there, not use force.
Anonymous
03/18/2015 13:25
Subject: How to talk race and diversity with a preschooler?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Holy shit, if my kid said that her entire world would stop. "How would you feel if all the kids with the coolest toys wouldn't let you play because you're white? We are all the same on the inside. We all bleed red blood. Our own president is black. You really wouldn't play with his daughters because they have dark skin?"
I would make it VERY clear RIGHT AWAY that we don't treat people poorly or ignore them because of how they are born!
And your stridency and overreaction would be wildly inappropriate.
It's not uncommon for kids that age to express a dislike for someone with "dark skin" or "light skin." You don't shame them for feeling that way. It's normal. They're trying to articulate something but can't quite do it, and skin color is something they notice right away.
Wrong, wrong and wrong. Shame is a valuable emotion and this is something I would absolutely risk shaming them for. This is hate speech and needs to stop NOW. It is NOT normal to form a like or dislike to the color of a person's skin!!! I was a preschool teacher for ten years before I became a mother and I have NEVER heard this as a normal stage of development either in work or when I was getting my degree.
Children notice differences. Children are not naturally wired to form judgements based on physical differences.
I would stop this behavior immediately, OP, and make it clear to DC that his feelings/thoughts on this are incorrect.
WTF. Ingroup preferences are completely normal. Would you have the same reaction if he said he didn't like people with blue shirts? Because that's really the same thing. I would address it but not treat him as a budding Klansman or anything.
FWIW, I am a person of color who has been on the receiving end of not so nice remarks about race and I think your reaction is unwarranted.
Anonymous
03/18/2015 13:06
Subject: How to talk race and diversity with a preschooler?
Ok -- let me be clear, I do not believe that emphatic suggests yelling, shaming, screaming, or being mean.
By, emphatic I mean very clear, very straightforward, and that this is a very important topic.
To me, the subject of how we talk about and think about people is just as important as safety issues, does anyone think being emphatic about safety issues is wrong?
I was emphatic with my child about this issue, and we have an open dialogue. It started when DC was a preschooler.
I truly do not understand your line of thinking -- it really baffles my mind.
I think this group in this post is arguing over nothing. Or semantics. I don't think there is a group that is being wishy-washy with their kid about racism and promoting unacceptable behavior/thoughts, nor do I think there is a person browbeating about racism and promoting shaming. You are all probably doing about the same thing with your kids but using different words to describe it.
Anonymous
03/18/2015 13:03
Subject: How to talk race and diversity with a preschooler?
At 3.5, a child doesn't need a thesis-level discussion thrown at him. They do naturally categorize everything by similarities and differences. Including skin color. And I do think that needs to be addressed proactively at a young age. Most experts I've read say to emphasize similarity among people when the kids are this young. Talk about diversity and differences when they are a bit older. I didn't start talking about racism until my son was 5-6 and he seemed old enough to get the basics. He's 8 now and we've started talking about cultural racism and the role it takes in favoring whites, while either ignoring or actively hurting others.
For now, with a young preschooler, I'd first ask why he thinks a lighter color skin will make him like someone more. See what he says. And in response to some of the comments you've listed, I would have probably said, "skin color is just something someone is born with. It doesn't have any impact on fun. Like I have blue eyes and you have brown. I still like playing monster trucks with you. And I know Joey loves playing with matchbox cars as much as you do."
For now, with a young preschooler, I'd first ask why he thinks a lighter color skin will make him like someone more. See what he says. And in response to some of the comments you've listed, I would have probably said, "skin color is just something someone is born with. It doesn't have any impact on fun. Like I have blue eyes and you have brown. I still like playing monster trucks with you. And I know Joey loves playing with matchbox cars as much as you do."
Anonymous
03/18/2015 12:55
Subject: How to talk race and diversity with a preschooler?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The all caps and VERY CLEAR RIGHT AWAY comment clearly gave many of is the impression of someone swooping in on their child with the kind of severe reaction that gets a kid's attention and lets the kid know they have done something very wrong. In addition, the fact that the other discussion we've suggested strike you as insufficient shows they you want the parent to be really emphatic. This is a 3.5 year old. Plenty of kids will do what it takes to avoid that kind of strong reaction from mom again, which means not saying anything racist to mom but doesn't mean not thinking it or saying it elsewhere.
Ok -- let me be clear, I do not believe that emphatic suggests yelling, shaming, screaming, or being mean.
By, emphatic I mean very clear, very straightforward, and that this is a very important topic.
To me, the subject of how we talk about and think about people is just as important as safety issues, does anyone think being emphatic about safety issues is wrong?
I was emphatic with my child about this issue, and we have an open dialogue. It started when DC was a preschooler.
I truly do not understand your line of thinking -- it really baffles my mind.
You are emphatic about not running into the street because what you care about is action. With racism we care about thought, not just deeds. You can't force a person to have a particular thought. You have to teach it, show them, make sure they come back to you with doubts and fears.
Anonymous
03/18/2015 12:49
Subject: How to talk race and diversity with a preschooler?
Anonymous wrote:The all caps and VERY CLEAR RIGHT AWAY comment clearly gave many of is the impression of someone swooping in on their child with the kind of severe reaction that gets a kid's attention and lets the kid know they have done something very wrong. In addition, the fact that the other discussion we've suggested strike you as insufficient shows they you want the parent to be really emphatic. This is a 3.5 year old. Plenty of kids will do what it takes to avoid that kind of strong reaction from mom again, which means not saying anything racist to mom but doesn't mean not thinking it or saying it elsewhere.
Ok -- let me be clear, I do not believe that emphatic suggests yelling, shaming, screaming, or being mean.
By, emphatic I mean very clear, very straightforward, and that this is a very important topic.
To me, the subject of how we talk about and think about people is just as important as safety issues, does anyone think being emphatic about safety issues is wrong?
I was emphatic with my child about this issue, and we have an open dialogue. It started when DC was a preschooler.
I truly do not understand your line of thinking -- it really baffles my mind.
Anonymous
03/18/2015 12:43
Subject: How to talk race and diversity with a preschooler?
EXCLUSIVE: Michelle Obama's mother was worried about her daughter marrying a biracial man
BY CELESTE KATZ NEW YORK DAILY NEWS Wednesday, March 18, 2015, 2:30 AM
Long before Michelle Obama became First Lady, her mother had misgivings about her marrying a young man named Barack Obama — because he was biracial.
In a Chicago TV interview that aired during Obama’s 2004 U.S. Senate campaign — and newly resurrected by Michelle Obama biographer Peter Slevin in a book due out next month — Marion Robinson confessed to being “a little bit” wary about her future son-in-law being the product of a white mom and black dad.
But it could’ve been worse, according to Robinson.
“That didn’t concern me as much as had he been completely white,” Robinson laughed in the appearance on WTTW’s “Chicago Tonight,” which was scarcely noticed at the time.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/exclusive-michelle-obama-mom-biracial-marriage-worries-article-1.2153243
BY CELESTE KATZ NEW YORK DAILY NEWS Wednesday, March 18, 2015, 2:30 AM
Long before Michelle Obama became First Lady, her mother had misgivings about her marrying a young man named Barack Obama — because he was biracial.
In a Chicago TV interview that aired during Obama’s 2004 U.S. Senate campaign — and newly resurrected by Michelle Obama biographer Peter Slevin in a book due out next month — Marion Robinson confessed to being “a little bit” wary about her future son-in-law being the product of a white mom and black dad.
But it could’ve been worse, according to Robinson.
“That didn’t concern me as much as had he been completely white,” Robinson laughed in the appearance on WTTW’s “Chicago Tonight,” which was scarcely noticed at the time.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/exclusive-michelle-obama-mom-biracial-marriage-worries-article-1.2153243
Anonymous
03/18/2015 12:38
Subject: How to talk race and diversity with a preschooler?
The all caps and VERY CLEAR RIGHT AWAY comment clearly gave many of is the impression of someone swooping in on their child with the kind of severe reaction that gets a kid's attention and lets the kid know they have done something very wrong. In addition, the fact that the other discussion we've suggested strike you as insufficient shows they you want the parent to be really emphatic. This is a 3.5 year old. Plenty of kids will do what it takes to avoid that kind of strong reaction from mom again, which means not saying anything racist to mom but doesn't mean not thinking it or saying it elsewhere.
Anonymous
03/18/2015 12:33
Subject: How to talk race and diversity with a preschooler?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I would address it matter of factly and in terms he can understand. I would NOT shame him as he is too little to recognize what he is saying. I WOULD ask him where he got the idea. Kids do come up with crazy, inappropriate things on their own but that is very specific and he probably either heard or misunderstood something.
+1 to all of this. 9 times out of 10 when my child has said something like this it came from someone at school. These times serve as an opportunity to say "some people think X, but we do not, and it is wrong to judge people based on where they live, what they look like, their abilities, their religion, etc." We make it very clear that we will not abide such judgmental talk or discriminatory behavior in our house. You have to lead by example and you can do that by being matter of fact, not by shaming. You want your child to talk to you so you can share your values - not shut them down with shame or punishment.
OH MY GOOODNESS PEOPLE WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT SHAMING THEIR KIDS -- WHO - WHO SAID IT PLEASE -- WHO SAID IT??
You need to calm down before you have a heart attack. Seriously.
Anonymous
03/18/2015 12:32
Subject: How to talk race and diversity with a preschooler?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:White woman married 26 years to AA man with 4 kids.
First, I would ask my child where the whole light and dark skin issue is coming from. It is coming from someone, and your child is old enough to tell you.
Secondly, most white kids don't say "dark" or "light" skin color. They say "white" or "black."
AA people do use "light" and "dark" skin tone to make judgements on physical attractiveness and desirability. Have you thougt that perhaps AA children are using those words and your child is picking it up from them?
I would def ask my child where those judgements on skin color are coming from.
This is not true. I'm AA and I use light and dark simply as a physical descriptor. It has nothing to do with attractiveness or desirability. Some may think one is more desirable, but simply saying someone is dark or light has nothing to with any of what you said.
You know some AA think dark AA are inferior to light AA. I had no clue of the entire issue until I lived near my husband's extended family. It still blows my mind.
Anonymous
03/18/2015 12:31
Subject: How to talk race and diversity with a preschooler?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:White woman married 26 years to AA man with 4 kids.
First, I would ask my child where the whole light and dark skin issue is coming from. It is coming from someone, and your child is old enough to tell you.
Secondly, most white kids don't say "dark" or "light" skin color. They say "white" or "black."
AA people do use "light" and "dark" skin tone to make judgements on physical attractiveness and desirability. Have you thougt that perhaps AA children are using those words and your child is picking it up from them?
I would def ask my child where those judgements on skin color are coming from.
This is not true. I'm AA and I use light and dark simply as a physical descriptor. It has nothing to do with attractiveness or desirability. Some may think one is more desirable, but simply saying someone is dark or light has nothing to with any of what you said.
Black person here -- I think the poster to whom you are responding is talking about the very real issue of colorism that exists, not just among black folk but other people of color. Not all black people or other people of color are manifesting "colorism" when saying light and dark, but I understand what she was saying -- she was just a bit clumsy about it. Colorism is a whole 'nother subset of racism (the internalization thereof)!!