Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We're more efficient at treating each other more compassionately too -- consider the end of slavery, the advent of minority rights, advances in medical science. We humans are a strange species, but overall, we are getting better, not worse

You are making your claims based upon a very small sample. Not a good approach.

No, it's based on a book by cognitive psychologist, Steven pinker. The better angels of our nature

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]To the OP, that empty feeling you have is the spirit God gave you that was made for a relationship with him. Please don't listen to all on this board who say it gets better with time. That feeling is a deadened spirit that atrophies without God. It might feel OK, but it is not OK. True freedom comes through the forgiveness of Christ and a relationship with him. I can tell you this from personal experience, of 40 years ignoring the things of God, and then the immense joy, peace and contentment, as well as sense of purpose, that God filled me with when I put my trust in Christ. I suspect you have "come to terms with the possibility" that you're an atheist because you have some questions about God that you find intractable. They are not intractable, but they appear so to an unbelieving heart. I have prayed that you will be able to find a kind and loving Christian person who will talk to you patiently about your thoughts and that God will help you with them. Jesus said all we need is faith the size of a mustard seed (meaning really small) to find him, which means you can even pray with just the slightest hope of their being a God if you are open to him revealing himself to you, and he will. God calls all of us to himself. Some ignore the call, and some heed it. Those who heed it will find how great he is. Please ask one of these people before you come to any more terms with disbelief. God bless.[/quote]

Not OP but I can tell you that I spent probably a good 4 years praying for my faith to strengthen, to not become an agnostic or atheist. And going to church well past the poInt of believing hoping for something to strike me and rejuvenate my faith. But all that praying did nothing as any belief I had slipped away bit by bit until I could no longer go to church without feeling like a complete hypocrite. And then I pretty much came to a sense of peace at being an agnostic who leans toward atheism, a state I've been in these last 15 or so years. Oh and when my kids were born I went back to church for a few years just in case, but nope, nothing there. [/quote]

Perhaps the problem was that you were praying for your faith to strengthen --- what were you actually DOING to strengthen your faith? You were just waiting and hoping for something to strike you, to rejuvenate your faith? I don't think that's how it works at all. A relationship with God and Christ is just that -- a relationship. If I told my DS that I wasn't sure how I felt about him any more and that I was going to sit around and wait for him to impress me so that my love and faith in him would be restored -- and he'd better get to work on it -- what do you think would happen?[/quote]

In other words, PP was doing it wrong

Anonymous wrote:

We're more efficient at treating each other more compassionately too -- consider the end of slavery, the advent of minority rights, advances in medical science. We humans are a strange species, but overall, we are getting better, not worse

You are making your claims based upon a very small sample. Not a good approach.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My understanding of "God's will" vs "bad things" is that God gave us free will even though, in His omniscience he knew all the bad things that would come from it, because He knew it was better for us (all of humanity) to endure these bad things than to be puppets.

Our free will allows us to make choices. He knows what choices we will make because the past and the future are all one to Him, but they are our choices.

For the record, I'm an atheist (NP), but I try to understand how an intelligent believer would make sense of the issue of free will vs predetermination.

There is free will and then there is God's will - two different things, both biblical concepts which I do not pretend to understand in any depth, except to know they are not the same thing. It seems that NP atheist directly above is conflating them

I didn't read it that way. I thought it was a pretty good explanation.

Anonymous wrote:

The evidence is that no one has been able to prove the existence of God, or any other gods.

And no one has proved that there is no God. Both sides are operating on a set of beliefs.

Anonymous wrote:I stopped believing when I was around 12 or 13 and realized that there was no higher power to help me out of my miserable situation. It made me self reliant and stronger.

What ever works.

Anonymous wrote:I get that. I came to terms that I was an atheist about 10 years ago (was raised with religion/god).

After a bit, it actually felt really liberating. It gave me greater appreciation for the "now" and present, instead of focusing on death. It made me realize how much more important it is to make things count now. Do good, be kind, for its own sake - not a reward. Make it matter today. I felt more powerful, and more capable when I admitted to myself that I didn't believe in god, religion, etc.

If you were in a church that focused on death, you were in the wrong church. It is good that you got out.

I have issues with all the major religions that I have studied, but I could never be an atheist, agnostic yes. I am a physicist. I have been around too long and seen too many experts be wrong to think we really know much about the universe. It takes a lot of hubris to think you know all there is to know about any subject, let alone the creation of the universe. We can't even agree on how many dimensions there are.

I don't know what it takes to have a happy and fulfilling life, but I suspect there are more religious people that feel that way than none religious.

I know many people that attend Christian churches, that are non-believers, because they believe that the teaching of Christ are a good model for how to live your live.

I know too many wealthy people to think that materialism is the answer. I think giving is part of the answer to a happy and fulfilling life.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]To the OP, that empty feeling you have is the spirit God gave you that was made for a relationship with him. Please don't listen to all on this board who say it gets better with time. That feeling is a deadened spirit that atrophies without God. It might feel OK, but it is not OK. True freedom comes through the forgiveness of Christ and a relationship with him. I can tell you this from personal experience, of 40 years ignoring the things of God, and then the immense joy, peace and contentment, as well as sense of purpose, that God filled me with when I put my trust in Christ. I suspect you have "come to terms with the possibility" that you're an atheist because you have some questions about God that you find intractable. They are not intractable, but they appear so to an unbelieving heart. I have prayed that you will be able to find a kind and loving Christian person who will talk to you patiently about your thoughts and that God will help you with them. Jesus said all we need is faith the size of a mustard seed (meaning really small) to find him, which means you can even pray with just the slightest hope of their being a God if you are open to him revealing himself to you, and he will. God calls all of us to himself. Some ignore the call, and some heed it. Those who heed it will find how great he is. Please ask one of these people before you come to any more terms with disbelief. God bless.[/quote]

Not OP but I can tell you that I spent probably a good 4 years praying for my faith to strengthen, to not become an agnostic or atheist. And going to church well past the poInt of believing hoping for something to strike me and rejuvenate my faith. But all that praying did nothing as any belief I had slipped away bit by bit until I could no longer go to church without feeling like a complete hypocrite. And then I pretty much came to a sense of peace at being an agnostic who leans toward atheism, a state I've been in these last 15 or so years. Oh and when my kids were born I went back to church for a few years just in case, but nope, nothing there. [/quote]

Perhaps the problem was that you were praying for your faith to strengthen --- what were you actually DOING to strengthen your faith? You were just waiting and hoping for something to strike you, to rejuvenate your faith? I don't think that's how it works at all. A relationship with God and Christ is just that -- a relationship. If I told my DS that I wasn't sure how I felt about him any more and that I was going to sit around and wait for him to impress me so that my love and faith in him would be restored -- and he'd better get to work on it -- what do you think would happen?[/quote]

Sorry, meant DH, not DS!

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]To the OP, that empty feeling you have is the spirit God gave you that was made for a relationship with him. Please don't listen to all on this board who say it gets better with time. That feeling is a deadened spirit that atrophies without God. It might feel OK, but it is not OK. True freedom comes through the forgiveness of Christ and a relationship with him. I can tell you this from personal experience, of 40 years ignoring the things of God, and then the immense joy, peace and contentment, as well as sense of purpose, that God filled me with when I put my trust in Christ. I suspect you have "come to terms with the possibility" that you're an atheist because you have some questions about God that you find intractable. They are not intractable, but they appear so to an unbelieving heart. I have prayed that you will be able to find a kind and loving Christian person who will talk to you patiently about your thoughts and that God will help you with them. Jesus said all we need is faith the size of a mustard seed (meaning really small) to find him, which means you can even pray with just the slightest hope of their being a God if you are open to him revealing himself to you, and he will. God calls all of us to himself. Some ignore the call, and some heed it. Those who heed it will find how great he is. Please ask one of these people before you come to any more terms with disbelief. God bless.[/quote]

Not OP but I can tell you that I spent probably a good 4 years praying for my faith to strengthen, to not become an agnostic or atheist. And going to church well past the poInt of believing hoping for something to strike me and rejuvenate my faith. But all that praying did nothing as any belief I had slipped away bit by bit until I could no longer go to church without feeling like a complete hypocrite. And then I pretty much came to a sense of peace at being an agnostic who leans toward atheism, a state I've been in these last 15 or so years. Oh and when my kids were born I went back to church for a few years just in case, but nope, nothing there. [/quote]

Perhaps the problem was that you were praying for your faith to strengthen --- what were you actually DOING to strengthen your faith? You were just waiting and hoping for something to strike you, to rejuvenate your faith? I don't think that's how it works at all. A relationship with God and Christ is just that -- a relationship. If I told my DS that I wasn't sure how I felt about him any more and that I was going to sit around and wait for him to impress me so that my love and faith in him would be restored -- and he'd better get to work on it -- what do you think would happen?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bad things happen because we live in a fallen world, and because each one of us gives in to our sinful impulses, some more than others. Christian teaching is that Christ came, died and was resurrected to give us a perfect future for eternity after the time when God will bring into judgment every deed that is committed on this earth. This eternal future is open to all who will accept Christ and put their hope in him. You can be sure that God will judge everything that is done, and that he is a God of justice. The mistake is in thinking that this world is all there is or ever will be and that people can get away with things.

Perhaps you can meditate on 2 Corinthians 4 and decide whether you will accept the Christian answer on suffering:

"But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed. ... So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self his being renewed day by day. For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal."

I'm sorry, are you saying that the severe, disfiguring congenital defect that I've lived with every day of my life, and that will someday make me immobile and shorten my life, is a result of somebody's sin? Obviously I didn't ask to be conceived and yes, i know all about the concept of original sin but I gotta say that the idea that I have to live with this poor excuse for a body just because Adam accepted an apple from Eve (or because my parents did something bad, is that what you're suggesting?) is pretty disconcerting. Personally I don't want to be the pawn in some being's "plan" for me, nor to be associated with that being who could stop all suffering with the blink of an eye but chooses not to.

And as for some magical marvelous eternity that we'll all be floating around in after death, I don't understand how that makes up for the crappy years that so many people spend suffering here on earth through no fault of their own. Why put people through such misery, what in fact is the point of earth? And what about all those who get a relatively nice, cushy life here on earth and then get to go to heaven and bask in god's light just like those who suffered? Seems very unfair.

PP, I am truly sorry for your situation, but understand that No One skates through with a "relatively nice, cushy life here on earth," at least not in the whole. Of course, we may have periods that look pretty good (from the outside - you have no idea what others are going through), but if you live long enough, life will crush you. And that is true for literally everyone.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that atheism is just part of growing up. Of course, there is an empty feeling when you accept there is no Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy, but you move on. It's difficult to be an adult and know that you are responsible for your planet. To accept that there is no final justice, just the justice of your laws. To accept that, in the end, if you want the world to be a better place you need to WORK on it, not PRAY for it.

Atheism is the result of realizing and accepting that the only magic in the world is that fact that over 4 billion years we are where we are. And the only hope is that we will continue to evolve as a species to a more just society for all.

We haven't evolved. Just look at patterns in history. We've simply become more efficient at murdering each other.

We're more efficient at treating each other more compassionately too -- consider the end of slavery, the advent of minority rights, advances in medical science. We humans are a strange species, but overall, we are getting better, not worse

Very, very myopic view. In many parts of the world, things like slavery and minority rights are worse now than in the past.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bad things happen because we live in a fallen world, and because each one of us gives in to our sinful impulses, some more than others. Christian teaching is that Christ came, died and was resurrected to give us a perfect future for eternity after the time when God will bring into judgment every deed that is committed on this earth. This eternal future is open to all who will accept Christ and put their hope in him. You can be sure that God will judge everything that is done, and that he is a God of justice. The mistake is in thinking that this world is all there is or ever will be and that people can get away with things.

Perhaps you can meditate on 2 Corinthians 4 and decide whether you will accept the Christian answer on suffering:

"But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed. ... So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self his being renewed day by day. For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal."

I'm sorry, are you saying that the severe, disfiguring congenital defect that I've lived with every day of my life, and that will someday make me immobile and shorten my life, is a result of somebody's sin? Obviously I didn't ask to be conceived and yes, i know all about the concept of original sin but I gotta say that the idea that I have to live with this poor excuse for a body just because Adam accepted an apple from Eve (or because my parents did something bad, is that what you're suggesting?) is pretty disconcerting. Personally I don't want to be the pawn in some being's "plan" for me, nor to be associated with that being who could stop all suffering with the blink of an eye but chooses not to.

And as for some magical marvelous eternity that we'll all be floating around in after death, I don't understand how that makes up for the crappy years that so many people spend suffering here on earth through no fault of their own. Why put people through such misery, what in fact is the point of earth? And what about all those who get a relatively nice, cushy life here on earth and then get to go to heaven and bask in god's light just like those who suffered? Seems very unfair.

It is, but there's a Christian platitude that explains it: The Lord works in mysterious ways.

and another one to try to make you feel better about it: It's your cross to bear.

I'm sorry for your unfortunate circumstances and I know you don't believe these things. I post them only in the hope that others reading here might see the wisdom of your words and the foolishness of these platitudes

Anonymous wrote:Bad things happen because we live in a fallen world, and because each one of us gives in to our sinful impulses, some more than others. Christian teaching is that Christ came, died and was resurrected to give us a perfect future for eternity after the time when God will bring into judgment every deed that is committed on this earth. This eternal future is open to all who will accept Christ and put their hope in him. You can be sure that God will judge everything that is done, and that he is a God of justice. The mistake is in thinking that this world is all there is or ever will be and that people can get away with things.

Perhaps you can meditate on 2 Corinthians 4 and decide whether you will accept the Christian answer on suffering:

"But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed. ... So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self his being renewed day by day. For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal."

in other words, when it seems like there couldn't possibly be a God who has any regard for you at all, because of all the horrible things that have befallen you, take heart that this same god promises you an eternal life after you're dead -- assuming humans are different from all other animals that die and return to the earth. Have faith in some verses in an ancient book of myths. Disregard common sense, logic and the rules of science.

Anonymous wrote:Bad things happen because we live in a fallen world, and because each one of us gives in to our sinful impulses, some more than others. Christian teaching is that Christ came, died and was resurrected to give us a perfect future for eternity after the time when God will bring into judgment every deed that is committed on this earth. This eternal future is open to all who will accept Christ and put their hope in him. You can be sure that God will judge everything that is done, and that he is a God of justice. The mistake is in thinking that this world is all there is or ever will be and that people can get away with things.

Perhaps you can meditate on 2 Corinthians 4 and decide whether you will accept the Christian answer on suffering:

"But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed. ... So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self his being renewed day by day. For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal."

I'm sorry, are you saying that the severe, disfiguring congenital defect that I've lived with every day of my life, and that will someday make me immobile and shorten my life, is a result of somebody's sin? Obviously I didn't ask to be conceived and yes, i know all about the concept of original sin but I gotta say that the idea that I have to live with this poor excuse for a body just because Adam accepted an apple from Eve (or because my parents did something bad, is that what you're suggesting?) is pretty disconcerting. Personally I don't want to be the pawn in some being's "plan" for me, nor to be associated with that being who could stop all suffering with the blink of an eye but chooses not to.

And as for some magical marvelous eternity that we'll all be floating around in after death, I don't understand how that makes up for the crappy years that so many people spend suffering here on earth through no fault of their own. Why put people through such misery, what in fact is the point of earth? And what about all those who get a relatively nice, cushy life here on earth and then get to go to heaven and bask in god's light just like those who suffered? Seems very unfair.