You do realize that charter schools serve a higher percentage of low income and African American students than DCPS?

Look, the charter my kid goes to is not majority low income & pretty white, considering. But it's hardly representative of charters in all of DC.

Anonymous wrote:^ No, you stop YOUR strawman arguments, because as has already been pointed out, the low SES families have no problem whatsoever getting signed up for every benefit under the sun, so there should be no issue getting signed up for the lottery either.

Also, the transportation argument is a red herring. Anybody sufficiently motivated can get to a charter. Latin has the 60, 62, 63, 64 Metrobuses along with several others within a couple of blocks. I used to walk 2 miles for middle and high school, so what the fuck is this notion of yours that if kids aren't chauffeured from door to door that it's "exclusion"?

Again, your arguments are BULLSHIT.

Why are you scared of the facts? I'm not accusing your or any charters of doing anything wrong.

Your presumption that "low-SES families have no problem whatsoever getting signed up for every benefit under the sun" is transparently false. Just to give you one example, enrollment rates for Medicaid are well below 100% of eligible familes. (see here: http://aspe.hhs.gov/health/reports/2012/medicaidtakeup/ib.shtml#t1). Same goes for food stamp enrollment. (http://www.nber.org/papers/w19363). So wherever you wanted to go with this argument, you can lay it to rest.

And I get it that buses can get to Latin. But if you think that there is no difference between 1. a kid having to get themselves from Ward 8 to downtown and then having to take a 45 minute bus ride from downtown to Latin; and 2. a kid walking to and catching a bus that takes half an hour to get from Glover Park to Latin, then you are obtuse.

I get it that you walked two miles to school. I congratulate you for that - you obviously were motivated and came from motivated family. But not all kids do. And those are the kids that are not getting into or attending charter schools.

There is no reason for you to be so angry about this set of facts.

^ No, you stop YOUR strawman arguments, because as has already been pointed out, the low SES families have no problem whatsoever getting signed up for every benefit under the sun, so there should be no issue getting signed up for the lottery either.

Also, the transportation argument is a red herring. Anybody sufficiently motivated can get to a charter. Latin has the 60, 62, 63, 64 Metrobuses along with several others within a couple of blocks. I used to walk 2 miles for middle and high school, so what the fuck is this notion of yours that if kids aren't chauffeured from door to door that it's "exclusion"?

Again, your arguments are BULLSHIT.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:he issue isn't that charter schools **exclude** every low income kid

Complete falsehood, as has already been proven here several times over. Charters throw their doors open to all who come, they have no control over the lottery or who applies.

Nobody is arguing that charters exclude every low income kid. Stop beating that strawman argument.

What people are saying is that there are systematic issues with charters that result in them being morel likely to have a student body that contains high SES families and less less likely to take low SES families. This happens even if charters follow all the rules - it is built into the system. I want to be clear - in making this point, I am not accusing anyone of any wrongdoing. I am saying the system has problems, though there are some steps that can be taken to mitigate this impact

For example, what if every kid was automatically entered into the lottery for middle school charters, with teachers or counselors making choices for students whose parents are unwilling or unable to navigate the lottery system? All parents would be presented with a choice: your child can either attend [Charter they got into via the lottery] or [inbooundary middle school]. This mitigates all the problems of low-SES families being given access to the lottery.

Again, a middle school issue, but what if we required schools like Latin to either provide no bus service or consistent citywide bus service, and make it available free to low-income families? That way Latin could not cherrypick by sending a bus to NW DC, but no bus to Wards 7 and 8.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The "magic" is that it is a lot easier and more frequently expel students for various undesirable attributes at a rate of 71:1 as compared to public schools.

Source?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/dc-charter-schools-expel-students-at-far-higher-rates-than-traditional-public-schools/2013/01/05/e155e4bc-44a9-11e2-8061-253bccfc7532_story.html

D.C. charter schools expelled 676 students in the past three years, while the city’s traditional public schools expelled 24, according to a Washington Post review of school data. During the 2011-12 school year, when charters enrolled 41 percent of the city’s students, they removed 227 children for discipline violations and had an expulsion rate of 72 per 10,000 students; the District school system removed three and had an expulsion rate of less than 1 per 10,000 students.

I don't think the expulsions are from the HRCS that people in this forum are aiming for. KIPP is mentioned in the article. Also from it:
"YouthBuild, a school that targets high school dropouts and students older than 16, expelled 30 that year, nearly one-third of its enrollment. Friendship’s Collegiate Academy expelled 56 students, or 5 percent of its student body."

So it's not really a reason to rail on LAMB or whatever.

+100 The overwhelming majority of charter expulsions come from just a handful of charters, what is cited is not applicable to the majority of other DC charters - in fact most of the HRCs had very few, if any at all.

Anonymous wrote:he issue isn't that charter schools **exclude** every low income kid

Complete falsehood, as has already been proven here several times over. Charters throw their doors open to all who come, they have no control over the lottery or who applies.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The "magic" is that it is a lot easier and more frequently expel students for various undesirable attributes at a rate of 71:1 as compared to public schools.

Source?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/dc-charter-schools-expel-students-at-far-higher-rates-than-traditional-public-schools/2013/01/05/e155e4bc-44a9-11e2-8061-253bccfc7532_story.html

D.C. charter schools expelled 676 students in the past three years, while the city’s traditional public schools expelled 24, according to a Washington Post review of school data. During the 2011-12 school year, when charters enrolled 41 percent of the city’s students, they removed 227 children for discipline violations and had an expulsion rate of 72 per 10,000 students; the District school system removed three and had an expulsion rate of less than 1 per 10,000 students.

They were expelling three year olds. I guess it was so bad that DC council member has proposed a bill prohibiting the expulsion of PS-K. DCPCB is opposing the legislation and is arguing that charters are not subject to DC laws.

While I agree this is an issue, the Charter board has become much more attentive to it. See this more recent Post article: http://wapo.st/1Aeb8sj
Rate was cut in half over two years.

For those citing the Washington Post story -- the comparison in expulsions is less than a complete apples to apples statistic. As the article says DCPS doesn't track or count OOB kids sent back to their IB schools or kids who are bounced out of application only schools for behavior or academic problems.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The "magic" is that it is a lot easier and more frequently expel students for various undesirable attributes at a rate of 71:1 as compared to public schools.

Source?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/dc-charter-schools-expel-students-at-far-higher-rates-than-traditional-public-schools/2013/01/05/e155e4bc-44a9-11e2-8061-253bccfc7532_story.html

D.C. charter schools expelled 676 students in the past three years, while the city’s traditional public schools expelled 24, according to a Washington Post review of school data. During the 2011-12 school year, when charters enrolled 41 percent of the city’s students, they removed 227 children for discipline violations and had an expulsion rate of 72 per 10,000 students; the District school system removed three and had an expulsion rate of less than 1 per 10,000 students.

I don't think the expulsions are from the HRCS that people in this forum are aiming for. KIPP is mentioned in the article. Also from it:
"YouthBuild, a school that targets high school dropouts and students older than 16, expelled 30 that year, nearly one-third of its enrollment. Friendship’s Collegiate Academy expelled 56 students, or 5 percent of its student body."

So it's not really a reason to rail on LAMB or whatever.

Who does anything more than cake and pizza?

he issue isn't that charter schools **exclude** every low income kid

Anonymous wrote:The barrier argument is just stupid.

We see all the students in our DC's class. They come to our home for birthday parties and we go to theirs. Huge differences sometimes in the family's income, but the kids don't care yet. (FYI, we are on the poorer side of most of these parties. Cake for the kids and pizza for the grownups.)

There are kids of different income levels at my kids birthday parties? What a stupid and non-responsive argument. The issue isn't that charter schools every low income kid - it is just harder for low-income kids to overcome the barriers of attendance at many charters. So yes, some low-income kids will be in your kids school - but maybe only 50% as many, or, 30% as many, or 70% as many - either way, less than would get into the schools otherwise. And that is at least part of the special sauce.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most HRCS have barriers to entry of one sort of another -- originally it was the individual lottery application process, now it's the siblings of those who got in initially -- that exclude the city's poor and disenfranchised.

Their absence makes everyone else feel better. It's called "creaming".

Exactly. Poaching the best students and wealthiest families from DCPS.

This is pure bullshit and will continue to be bullshit no matter how many times you try and repeat it. Every applicant to the lottery has an equal chance of getting into a charter.

Students SELF SELECT. Charters do not get to pick and choose.

This is nonsense. You don't view the lottery itself as a barrier - especially to those with poor computer skills, no computer access, or non-English speakers?

You don't think that schools that are far from mass transit present a barrier to those parents that don't have the luxury of time or money to drive their kids across town?

You don't think that - just to give one example - Washington Latin providing a bus for students in NW DC but no bus for students in Wards 7 and 8 might have some kind of impact on whether those students attend Latin or not?

What nonsense. Not a Latin parent, but from what I understand Latin is on the green line and offers a shuttle from the green line to the school. Plus I am pretty sure there has got to be buses that can take you there for free via metrobus.

As for the lottery, all of the DC libraries have computers and staff members more than happy to show people how to apply not to mention all of the social services in this city. These same services probably have access to translators too. Additionally any of these schools I am sure would be willing to walk a family through the process as well.

I am also willing to wager that these same disadvantaged folks you speak of have no problems applying for the various sorts of assistance available from our social safety nets so I call hogwash to your assertion about barriers.

Metro is not free. And bus service to Latin is terrible. So again, if you do not have the luxury of time and money to get your kid across town, you are not going to send them there. Or if you do not live in one the targeted communities in NW where Latin provides (costly) bus service, you are not going to go there.

Sure, people can get help with the lottery if they need it. But that's the point - getting help is a hassle. I bet you don't need help - you can probably apply in 15 minutes from the comfort of your living room.

The point isn't hat it is impossible for poor and disadvantaged kids to go to charter schools - but there are barriers that exist for poor and disadvantaged kids that don't exist for others.

Like not being prepared?

I sure hope that charter schools are not eliminating kids for not being prepared, since they - as public schools - are supposed to be able to educate every child who chooses to attend.

Anonymous wrote:That source should be posted to many threads.

I agree because it is the definitive rejoinder to the but but but but! defenders who say with a straight face that nobody in CharterWorld cherry picks anymore -- not since we all went to common lottery / myschoolDC. Sunshine and unicorns!



It's true that everyone can participate in the Common Lottery, so long as they have prior knowledge of the lottery process and the ability to get to a public library, get a library CARD using your gov't issued ID, and then log on to the free DC Public Library computers. Everyone in the city technically has the same chance now to win a spot at any school.

Reliably getting to that school? Not a level playing field and I'll never be convinced otherwise.

Staying in that school and not getting bounced back into DCPS? See data in the WaPo link.