13:33, most of us who left Alexandria (regretfully, I might add -- it's a nicer place to live than Arlington or Fairfax) have had a similar moment like the one you describe where the things you had been told repeatedly by people who had BTDT seemed too hard to believe.

For me, it was one of those moments when Mort Sherman told parents seeking more for their high-achieving children that "private school is a good option for some people."

For you, it may be this meeting. I can't say I'm surprised. But that is entirely consistent with the paradigm of ACPS culture for about two decades now.

I thought long before making this post yet I feel this video is very relevant to discussion of the OP's original question.

As an ACPS parent, I watched the 12/18/14 Alexandria City School Board meeting, where board member Kelly Booz introduced an amendment to add a single Honors Class by fall of 2015 during Agenda #9 discussion of "2015-2016 Program of Studies". It turns out a good number of ACPS students themselves are asking the school board for more choice between academic "standard classes" and "AP classes".

An hour of board discussion ensued. Repetitive back and forth between the Superintendent and amongst Board Members on if enough time exists between now, mid December 2014, and September 2015 to allow even a single Honors class be added to at least address student's request for a more rigorous class than standard. The Superintendent said it was possible, but also thought more lead time was preferable, to this viewer urging the following academic year 2016-2017.

I didn't believe some who wrote on this thread that ACPS shorts the above average students and gifted students. I just thought that ethically impossible. Watch the video discussion starting at 1:22 and make your own judgement.

Listen where a Board member addresses the request: "it's a matter of priorities". Multiple times the word "priorities" is said, code, one might deduce, for not on the agenda for the great majority of students. I almost had to turn the ACPS Board meeting off, it broke my heart how some students are higher "priorities" in ACPS.

Ms. Booz earnest amendment for a single new Honor's class in 2015-2016 was vetoed 5to 4.

If a single new ACPS Honors class for 2015-2016, urged by Alexandria students themselves for more rigor can't get passed and completed over 9 months, then there is a big problem in ACPS.

If ACPS Board refers to the majority of students as "priorities" and these exclude honors and gifted students, then it appears the Alexandria City Public Schools may indeed be lopsided. Strong words, yes? Remember, I didn't believe you initially. It is now less hard for me at least to believe, after watching and listening to this sad, prolonged, beat-around-the-priority-bush hour of the ACPS Board Meeting this week.

I post this not to rankle ACPS School Board members, but to facilitate further discussion amongst Alexandrian's and as commentary to the OP's original question.

http://acpsk12va.granicus.com/ViewPublisher.php?view_id=2
(1:22 for board discussion, preceded by staff presentation)

Anonymous wrote:Alexandria schools will improve over the next decade(s) but that will be a result of the less affluent being forced to move. The Beauregard plan will displace many of the families of at risk kids. If the city ever cracked down on multiple families living in the apartments in the West End, that would have an impact too. Of course the affordable housing advocates will rage against the inevitable, but the poorer parts of Alexandria will naturally gentrify over time. There will be fewer famiies with school age kids as well. Alexandria is becoming a city of younger childless couple and the number of kids in the older, established single family home neighborhoods is dwindling. Some of the older low rise buildings will be replaced - the land is just too valuable. After Beauregad, I think we'll see big changes coming to Arlandria (it's already happening - just drive down Mt. Vernon Avenue in that area.) Last, a lot of people worked very hard to get rid of former Superintendant Mort Sherman and elect a new school board. The new superintendent is a vast improvement. If I had school aged children in Alexandria now, I'd gladly send them to George Mason or MacArthur Elementary, maybe Maury, then private school for middle school (no way in hell should any parent send their kids to GW or Hammond or Minnie Howard) then I might give TC Williams a try, and if the first year didn't go well, send my kid to private school, or just stay with private schools. TCW can be good for a small subset.

Quite the ringing endorsement. You go first...no you, please!

Alexandria schools will improve over the next decade(s) but that will be a result of the less affluent being forced to move. The Beauregard plan will displace many of the families of at risk kids. If the city ever cracked down on multiple families living in the apartments in the West End, that would have an impact too. Of course the affordable housing advocates will rage against the inevitable, but the poorer parts of Alexandria will naturally gentrify over time. There will be fewer famiies with school age kids as well. Alexandria is becoming a city of younger childless couple and the number of kids in the older, established single family home neighborhoods is dwindling. Some of the older low rise buildings will be replaced - the land is just too valuable. After Beauregad, I think we'll see big changes coming to Arlandria (it's already happening - just drive down Mt. Vernon Avenue in that area.) Last, a lot of people worked very hard to get rid of former Superintendant Mort Sherman and elect a new school board. The new superintendent is a vast improvement. If I had school aged children in Alexandria now, I'd gladly send them to George Mason or MacArthur Elementary, maybe Maury, then private school for middle school (no way in hell should any parent send their kids to GW or Hammond or Minnie Howard) then I might give TC Williams a try, and if the first year didn't go well, send my kid to private school, or just stay with private schools. TCW can be good for a small subset.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"I don't know that having people move to Alexandria specifically for the schools is a worthwhile goal - certainly not in the short to medium term."

"You seem more troubled that Alexandria wants to educate the poor."

Boggles one's mind to read this, but shows the OP and others what your up against in Alexandria City when standing up for your gifted kid by questioning ACPS and TJ attendance.

Merry Christmas.

I would like to see Alexandria feed to TJ eventually. I support that. I think the way to accomplish that is to address the financial and transportation issues. (at some point TCS will hit capacity and the economics of sending kids to TJ will look different) I also think that is a different issue from attempting to make Alexandria like Arlington. People do not move to Arlington for TJ access, as far as I can tell. They go for Arlington's - or more specifcally, North Arlington's, highly rated schools, with their high test scores and more affluent demographics. To achieve that in Alexandria would require not merely better management of schools, it would likely involve an increase in RE prices that would price out not only poor but many middle class people (as has happened to a considerable extent in North Arlington) I am not sure there are even policies that could achieve that if it were desired. And I think Alexandria has alternative ways to develop and improve.

And you know this how? It's easier to get to TJ from Arlington than it is from many parts of Fairfax, Prince William, or Loudoun.

How is it easier to get into TJ from Arlington than elsewhere?

Admission stats aren't easier, but there is less competition--I think APS is allowed to send 75 (?) kids total, but only about 40 have gotten in and chosen to attend. In theory, if more kids got in, more kids could go.

You have no idea what you're talking about. The Arlington cap is about 25 students admitted per year and the cap hasn't been exceeded in a few years. Altogether about 80 kids from Arlington attend TJ each year. The Arlington applicants compete against those from the other counties, not each other. It actually may be harder for Arlington kids to get into TJ because their middle schools don't have the specialized math and science instruction and activities that are offered at the Fairfax AAP centers. On average, about 6 kids out of >300 8th graders from Williamsburg MS in Arlington are admitted to TJ each year. The AAP center middle schools in Fairfax County each have dozens of kids going to TJ.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"I don't know that having people move to Alexandria specifically for the schools is a worthwhile goal - certainly not in the short to medium term."

"You seem more troubled that Alexandria wants to educate the poor."

Boggles one's mind to read this, but shows the OP and others what your up against in Alexandria City when standing up for your gifted kid by questioning ACPS and TJ attendance.

Merry Christmas.

I would like to see Alexandria feed to TJ eventually. I support that. I think the way to accomplish that is to address the financial and transportation issues. (at some point TCS will hit capacity and the economics of sending kids to TJ will look different) I also think that is a different issue from attempting to make Alexandria like Arlington. People do not move to Arlington for TJ access, as far as I can tell. They go for Arlington's - or more specifcally, North Arlington's, highly rated schools, with their high test scores and more affluent demographics. To achieve that in Alexandria would require not merely better management of schools, it would likely involve an increase in RE prices that would price out not only poor but many middle class people (as has happened to a considerable extent in North Arlington) I am not sure there are even policies that could achieve that if it were desired. And I think Alexandria has alternative ways to develop and improve.

And you know this how? It's easier to get to TJ from Arlington than it is from many parts of Fairfax, Prince William, or Loudoun.

How is it easier to get into TJ from Arlington than elsewhere?

Admission stats aren't easier, but there is less competition--I think APS is allowed to send 75 (?) kids total, but only about 40 have gotten in and chosen to attend. In theory, if more kids got in, more kids could go.

Two separate things - ease of getting into TJ and ease of getting to TJ.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"I don't know that having people move to Alexandria specifically for the schools is a worthwhile goal - certainly not in the short to medium term."

"You seem more troubled that Alexandria wants to educate the poor."

Boggles one's mind to read this, but shows the OP and others what your up against in Alexandria City when standing up for your gifted kid by questioning ACPS and TJ attendance.

Merry Christmas.

I would like to see Alexandria feed to TJ eventually. I support that. I think the way to accomplish that is to address the financial and transportation issues. (at some point TCS will hit capacity and the economics of sending kids to TJ will look different) I also think that is a different issue from attempting to make Alexandria like Arlington. People do not move to Arlington for TJ access, as far as I can tell. They go for Arlington's - or more specifcally, North Arlington's, highly rated schools, with their high test scores and more affluent demographics. To achieve that in Alexandria would require not merely better management of schools, it would likely involve an increase in RE prices that would price out not only poor but many middle class people (as has happened to a considerable extent in North Arlington) I am not sure there are even policies that could achieve that if it were desired. And I think Alexandria has alternative ways to develop and improve.

And you know this how? It's easier to get to TJ from Arlington than it is from many parts of Fairfax, Prince William, or Loudoun.

How is it easier to get into TJ from Arlington than elsewhere?

Admission stats aren't easier, but there is less competition--I think APS is allowed to send 75 (?) kids total, but only about 40 have gotten in and chosen to attend. In theory, if more kids got in, more kids could go.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"I don't know that having people move to Alexandria specifically for the schools is a worthwhile goal - certainly not in the short to medium term."

"You seem more troubled that Alexandria wants to educate the poor."

Boggles one's mind to read this, but shows the OP and others what your up against in Alexandria City when standing up for your gifted kid by questioning ACPS and TJ attendance.

Merry Christmas.

I would like to see Alexandria feed to TJ eventually. I support that. I think the way to accomplish that is to address the financial and transportation issues. (at some point TCS will hit capacity and the economics of sending kids to TJ will look different) I also think that is a different issue from attempting to make Alexandria like Arlington. People do not move to Arlington for TJ access, as far as I can tell. They go for Arlington's - or more specifcally, North Arlington's, highly rated schools, with their high test scores and more affluent demographics. To achieve that in Alexandria would require not merely better management of schools, it would likely involve an increase in RE prices that would price out not only poor but many middle class people (as has happened to a considerable extent in North Arlington) I am not sure there are even policies that could achieve that if it were desired. And I think Alexandria has alternative ways to develop and improve.

And you know this how? It's easier to get to TJ from Arlington than it is from many parts of Fairfax, Prince William, or Loudoun.

How is it easier to get into TJ from Arlington than elsewhere?

"Data commissioned by Newsweek, based both on student achievement and college readiness indicators, placed Thomas Jefferson as the highest-performing high school in the United States. Nor is that the first such declaration; administrative offices in the school are adorned with several U.S. News and World Report covers crowning Thomas Jefferson at the top of “America’s Best High Schools."

http://www.newsweek.com/2014/09/19/number-1-high-school-america-offers-real-head-start-268693.html

"Rankings / Awards

This details how this school compares with others based on U.S. News ranking criteria.

Medal Awarded Gold
National Rank
#4
State Rank
#1
STEM Rank
#1"

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/virginia/districts/fairfax-county-public-schools/thomas-jefferson-high-school-for-science-and-technology-20461

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"I don't know that having people move to Alexandria specifically for the schools is a worthwhile goal - certainly not in the short to medium term."

"You seem more troubled that Alexandria wants to educate the poor."

Boggles one's mind to read this, but shows the OP and others what your up against in Alexandria City when standing up for your gifted kid by questioning ACPS and TJ attendance.

Merry Christmas.

I would like to see Alexandria feed to TJ eventually. I support that. I think the way to accomplish that is to address the financial and transportation issues. (at some point TCS will hit capacity and the economics of sending kids to TJ will look different) I also think that is a different issue from attempting to make Alexandria like Arlington. People do not move to Arlington for TJ access, as far as I can tell. They go for Arlington's - or more specifcally, North Arlington's, highly rated schools, with their high test scores and more affluent demographics. To achieve that in Alexandria would require not merely better management of schools, it would likely involve an increase in RE prices that would price out not only poor but many middle class people (as has happened to a considerable extent in North Arlington) I am not sure there are even policies that could achieve that if it were desired. And I think Alexandria has alternative ways to develop and improve.

And you know this how? It's easier to get to TJ from Arlington than it is from many parts of Fairfax, Prince William, or Loudoun.

I cannot say for certain that no one ever moved to Arlington for TJ. But I have never heard anyone say they did - compared to MANY times I have heard or read people say they are moving to Arlington for the quality of Arlington County Public Schools. Given the uncertainty of admission to TJ it would be odd indeed to move for that.

People move to both Arlington and Fairfax in part for the potential access to TJ. That's not an option in Alexandria.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"I don't know that having people move to Alexandria specifically for the schools is a worthwhile goal - certainly not in the short to medium term."

"You seem more troubled that Alexandria wants to educate the poor."

Boggles one's mind to read this, but shows the OP and others what your up against in Alexandria City when standing up for your gifted kid by questioning ACPS and TJ attendance.

Merry Christmas.

I would like to see Alexandria feed to TJ eventually. I support that. I think the way to accomplish that is to address the financial and transportation issues. (at some point TCS will hit capacity and the economics of sending kids to TJ will look different) I also think that is a different issue from attempting to make Alexandria like Arlington. People do not move to Arlington for TJ access, as far as I can tell. They go for Arlington's - or more specifcally, North Arlington's, highly rated schools, with their high test scores and more affluent demographics. To achieve that in Alexandria would require not merely better management of schools, it would likely involve an increase in RE prices that would price out not only poor but many middle class people (as has happened to a considerable extent in North Arlington) I am not sure there are even policies that could achieve that if it were desired. And I think Alexandria has alternative ways to develop and improve.

And you know this how? It's easier to get to TJ from Arlington than it is from many parts of Fairfax, Prince William, or Loudoun.

I cannot say for certain that no one ever moved to Arlington for TJ. But I have never heard anyone say they did - compared to MANY times I have heard or read people say they are moving to Arlington for the quality of Arlington County Public Schools. Given the uncertainty of admission to TJ it would be odd indeed to move for that.

I am not suggesting the relationship of spending per student and school outcomes or quality is linear. Clearly FARMs percentages play a role - FARMs kids have needs that are quite costly. Plus ACPS clearly has had a legacy of poor management. Plus of course high SES kids on average have higher test scores period.

My point about resources is that when ACPS has more resources it will be easier for them to both fund what they are doing now, and also add new items.

BTW Fairfax is farther out, and can probably attract teachers more cheaply (since they can commute more easily from cheaper middle class housing) Arlington might be more comparable. IIUC their spending per pupil is higher than in FFX. Or maybe DC would be a point of comparison.

You can't compare the spending per student for ACPS vs FCPS without comparing the number of students in each school system. Fairfax County is the largest school system in the state of VA with over 186,000 students. There is a significant economy of scale that comes with being such a large school system. Alexandria has just over 14,000 students. Fairfax has a budget of over $2.5 billion, versus ACPS's $250 million.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The general shift to living in the region's center was not happening in 1995, and certainly not the scale of development. 2005 it may have been but then change got tangled up with the economic crisis. I really do see the city on an upswing in ways I have not seen before (I have been in the region for the entire period you mention) You can see it in total population and other indicators.

As for people not moving to Alexandria for a MacArthur or LCTA or Mason, as I said above, Alexandria does not need to be Arlington. I don't know that having people move to Alexandria specifically for the schools is a worthwhile goal - certainly not in the short to medium term.

And I find your use of the term masses quite confusing (as well as offputting) The middle class non-gifted folks in Fairfax County are the masses, really. You seem more troubled that Alexandria wants to educate the poor. You also seem to imply an undifferentiated elite - I think the differences between high SES families non gifted kids, ordinary gifted kids, and the profoundly gifted are all quite different. Appealing to the high SES is mostly a real estate and economics problem. Alexandria does well enough with the childless (and those who prefer private schools) that I do not see it as a huge issue. Ordinary gifted kids may not be served as well as they should be in ACPS, or as they are in FCPS, but that has little to do with TJHSST. And they may well manage among the AP course at TCW. For the profoundly gifted, the failure to provide adequate challenge, and an appropriate social environment, is in my opinion a serious issue - like failing to provide accommodations to the learning disabled. However I do not think any local county shines on that. And I do not think turning the focus from the poor to the middle class, or the generic upper middle class, will really address that.

Not the PP you are responding to, but yes, this is troubling and once your kids are in school you will understand why this is such a problem. The focus is almost solely on this population with little else left for average/above average kids and nothing for advanced kids. This isn't even about AAP level kids, it's about kids who do grade level or just above grade level. It's people like you in the City who have no kids in school who have all these lofty ideals about how we can raise children out of poverty instantly with school but it doesn't work like that. And guess who suffers? Your average and above average kids. Even the "best" elementary schools can do very little for these kids. They pass the test easily so they don't need much is pretty much the thinking.

The curriculum and standards in ACPS are just low. They are low to ensure that schools like John Adams and William Ramsay with 80%+ FARMS rates can get their kids to at least pass the state minimum SOL tests. They aren't concerned with much else.

My kid is in college. I am not new to this area. I have lived here for over 20 years, and have been familiar with the City of Alexandria for that entire time. Cameron Station is lovely but its small. Caryle as far as I can tell did contribute to the City's resources - it is continuiing to grow, and more new development is on its way. That is not so much about changing demographics as about more tax revenues. I do not think anything can be done instantly, but I don't think that means we should not attempt to do what we can for poor kids. As far as I am concerned Fairfax generally feels the same away. The difference is both the numbers - Alexandria has more FARMS kids - and resources - Fairfax has more money to do both. I do believe Alexandria's resources will grow.

As for demographics I cannot tell what changes will occur in the future (btw PWC still has lots of FARMs kids IIUC, the much ballyhooed expulsion of illegals did not change that) but I do know that in the area covered by the Beauregard Small Area plan many units now inhabited by low income families will be replaced by new units, more than 90% of which will be market rate. Whether that is a good idea or not, it will be happening.

And I do not expect ACPS to transform anytime in the near future. I do expect however that the issues ACPS has will not hold back the City's upward path, and I do expect that here and there some ACPS schools will improve. I also am not sure why people keep taking about this Mort Sherman, whom IIUC was fired.

You keep talking about tax revenues and resources. In 2014, Alexandria spent $16,880 per student, and Fairfax spent $13,472. Money is not the problem.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"I don't know that having people move to Alexandria specifically for the schools is a worthwhile goal - certainly not in the short to medium term."

"You seem more troubled that Alexandria wants to educate the poor."

Boggles one's mind to read this, but shows the OP and others what your up against in Alexandria City when standing up for your gifted kid by questioning ACPS and TJ attendance.

Merry Christmas.

I would like to see Alexandria feed to TJ eventually. I support that. I think the way to accomplish that is to address the financial and transportation issues. (at some point TCS will hit capacity and the economics of sending kids to TJ will look different) I also think that is a different issue from attempting to make Alexandria like Arlington. People do not move to Arlington for TJ access, as far as I can tell. They go for Arlington's - or more specifcally, North Arlington's, highly rated schools, with their high test scores and more affluent demographics. To achieve that in Alexandria would require not merely better management of schools, it would likely involve an increase in RE prices that would price out not only poor but many middle class people (as has happened to a considerable extent in North Arlington) I am not sure there are even policies that could achieve that if it were desired. And I think Alexandria has alternative ways to develop and improve.

And you know this how? It's easier to get to TJ from Arlington than it is from many parts of Fairfax, Prince William, or Loudoun.