I'm pro-busing since I think it's much more doable than long term tinkering with housing policy.

1. What are you pro-busing folks actually hoping to accomplish?
- Lessening the concentration of poverty in any 1 given school to make it easier to deal with the needs of those kids by "diluting the neediness" so to speak. FARMs rate for the county on avg is 40%. That means 60% of the school would be non-poor which leaves a good chunk of critical mass re: peer groups, pressure for high achievement, PTA support.

2. Is the goal diversity in schools as an end to itself?
- no. it's because spreading out the SES diversity to a greater extent would go a long way to helping address the problems in the schools that currently have an over concentration of low SES kids. SES diversity is a much bigger deal than racial diversity.

3. So you think LES kids will get a better education if mixed in with wealthier kids?
- I'm not sure what LES means. I'm guessing it's Low Economic Status? If so, then yes I do.

4. Do you think wealthier kids need the "reality check" of a more diverse -- economically and racially -- school?
- It is not essential but could be helpful for them. This is not the primary reason busing should be considered though.

5. Does it just bother you on some gut level that there is a disparity of income in MoCo?
- No. There will always be income disparities - but government services should not hinge on income levels. Should the trash be picked up daily in CC and only every other week in Wheaton? Should the firehouses ensure they can make it to fires in 5 minutes in Bethesda but only in 20 minutes in Aspen Hill? Government services normally aim at being delivered in equitable ways, regardless of income level - that's the ideal at least. When it's clearly doable to improve towards this goal with respect to schools I think it's wrong to disregard the most realistic path to get there (busing) simply so that kids in schools with less than 10% FARMs rates can preserve that while others are at schools with 80%+ rates.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:those who complain about not being treated equal in terms of schools, housing etc. never mentioned the inequality in tax paying.

What about the inequality in tax paying? Are people who pay more in taxes entitled to a better public-school education for their children than people who pay less in taxes? What else are they entitled to? Better roads? Better fire and ambulance service? Jumping to the head of the line for in-demand books at the public library?

talking about entitlement. Those who never paid tax whose 4, 5 kids getting free food, free health care and free education feel that they are entitle to more. What else are they entitled to? good schools, better housing, shorter work hours, higher payment, and automatic citizenship?

you tell me why a "good" school provides better public school education with same or worse teacher:student ratio, equal or lower per student funding from county.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:those who complain about not being treated equal in terms of schools, housing etc. never mentioned the inequality in tax paying.

What about the inequality in tax paying? Are people who pay more in taxes entitled to a better public-school education for their children than people who pay less in taxes? What else are they entitled to? Better roads? Better fire and ambulance service? Jumping to the head of the line for in-demand books at the public library?

Liberal whites will always protect their children from the consequences of their politics . The reason whites in the south are conservative is that they actually live and educate together with the natural friction. But at least they integrate, the northern whites have the worst character on earth meticulously separating themselves but preaching inclusion to raise themselves up and receive adulation. It's so gross.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:those who complain about not being treated equal in terms of schools, housing etc. never mentioned the inequality in tax paying.

What about the inequality in tax paying? Are people who pay more in taxes entitled to a better public-school education for their children than people who pay less in taxes? What else are they entitled to? Better roads? Better fire and ambulance service? Jumping to the head of the line for in-demand books at the public library?

Like it or not, money talks and makes the world go 'round.

You didn't answer the questions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:those who complain about not being treated equal in terms of schools, housing etc. never mentioned the inequality in tax paying.

What about the inequality in tax paying? Are people who pay more in taxes entitled to a better public-school education for their children than people who pay less in taxes? What else are they entitled to? Better roads? Better fire and ambulance service? Jumping to the head of the line for in-demand books at the public library?

Like it or not, money talks and makes the world go 'round.

Anonymous wrote:What are you pro-busing folks actually hoping to accomplish?

Is the goal diversity in schools as an end to itself?

So you think LES kids will get a better education if mixed in with wealthier kids?

Do you think wealthier kids need the "reality check" of a more diverse -- economically and racially -- school?

Does it just bother you on some gut level that there is a disparity of income in MoCo?

Genuine question.

MCPS is ALREADY busing for socioeconomic diversity. This is something that MCPS is ALREADY doing. MCPS is doing that, right now.

And yes, it's a well-established fact that poor kids do better in low-poverty schools than in high-poverty schools.

Anonymous wrote:those who complain about not being treated equal in terms of schools, housing etc. never mentioned the inequality in tax paying.

What about the inequality in tax paying? Are people who pay more in taxes entitled to a better public-school education for their children than people who pay less in taxes? What else are they entitled to? Better roads? Better fire and ambulance service? Jumping to the head of the line for in-demand books at the public library?

Anonymous wrote:those who complain about not being treated equal in terms of schools, housing etc. never mentioned the inequality in tax paying.

Could you be more specific please?

How is taxation unequal in MoCo, and if it is, what impact if any should that have (in your view) on the education of children?

What are you pro-busing folks actually hoping to accomplish?

Is the goal diversity in schools as an end to itself?

So you think LES kids will get a better education if mixed in with wealthier kids?

Do you think wealthier kids need the "reality check" of a more diverse -- economically and racially -- school?

Does it just bother you on some gut level that there is a disparity of income in MoCo?

Genuine question.

those who complain about not being treated equal in terms of schools, housing etc. never mentioned the inequality in tax paying.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Montgomery County is not diverse at all. There are a few communities with true diversity but most are pockets of different ethnic, religious and cultural groups. If you look at county gov't it is also heavily skewed. There is absolutely nothing diverse about the county.

That's weird because I know any number of schools that are truly diverse. As in no one majority race. Our school is diverse racially and socio-economically (I would say it does tend to be majority middle class though).

+1

I'm reposting a link that someone else posted on this thread. The graph on this link shows which schools are a good mix of SES and white, and which are extremes on either side.

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/19285/de-facto-segregation-threatens-montgomery-public-schools/

Anonymous wrote:Montgomery County is not diverse at all. There are a few communities with true diversity but most are pockets of different ethnic, religious and cultural groups. If you look at county gov't it is also heavily skewed. There is absolutely nothing diverse about the county.

That's weird because I know any number of schools that are truly diverse. As in no one majority race. Our school is diverse racially and socio-economically (I would say it does tend to be majority middle class though).

Anonymous wrote:"So what is the solution? Forced busing? Open all schools to lottery so that all kids might be bused 2-3 hours each day to school? ...I'm wondering what *specifically* MoCo and MCPS should do beyond what it's doing? "

uh, yeah. The county's schools that have highly concentrated high wealth populations of kids are not wildly far away from the areas with the highest concentrations of FARMS kids. I don't think a lottery is best though since that would send the buses every which way. But linking up larger sections of high FARMs areas as within the attendance zone for currently low FARMs areas so that you equalize a bit more the level of FARMs kids that any one school might have - sorry, I just don't see that as wildly insane especially when a really big chunk of both groups is in the southern portion of the county - it's not like we're talking about the need to bus from Clarksburg to CC.

+1M

The Haves are just a few miles from the Have-Nots. It would not be difficult to do.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"I guess it depends on what you think the main purpose of MCPS is -- maintaining property values, or educating children. "

nice point.

Just finished reading Savage Inequalities yesterday - right as OP posted this. The book is pretty old (released I think in the early 90s) but it's amazing how little has changed. The only benefit the poor schools in MoCo have over the defacto segregated schools the book spotlights is that MoCo funding levels are equitable across the county (w/ even a bit more poured into needy schools) so that it is not a slam dunk that the wealthy schools will have low class counts & great buildings while the poor schools have high kid counts & crappy buildings. And teacher pay is I think the same throughout the county. So on the plus side, MoCo already does do a number of things to help make the funding inequalities so stark; the problem is though that in addition you also need to dilute a bit the concentration levels of needy kids so that they are not overwhelming any given school. MoCo is not at all prepared to do that.

I don't know if MoCo is not prepared to do that, but through ongoing policy choices, it continually chooses not to do that.

So what is the solution? Forced busing? Open all schools to lottery so that all kids might be bused 2-3 hours each day to school? Force developers to build low-income housing projects in wealthy neighborhoods, or prohibit further development of expensive housing in W districts? I'm wondering what *specifically* MoCo and MCPS should do beyond what it's doing?

For starters, designate X% of new housing in wealthy areas as affordable housing.

Change zoning to allow for multi-family housing in wealthy areas, and designate X% of that housing as affordable housing.

Allow for accessory apartments in wealthy areas.

Those are off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more ways to do it (and without busing, not that I am opposed to busing).

RE busing: It already happens throughout the county. The nearest high school to us is 1.2 miles away - but our home HS is 5.5 miles away. My kids are bused to their high school, even though they could walk to the one that is closer. Why? Socioeconomic gerrymandering. That is busing.