These liberal tax policies kill the productive middle class folks who make 150-500k.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:$350-400K in this area *is* middle class.

Call it "upper middle class" if you like. It's not upper class.

We have doubled our income in the past 5 years. From just under $200K to just under $400K. How has life changed for us?
- regular expenses are covered as a matter of course (don't have to be constantly checking the bank balance to make sure there's enough to cover)
- we are now saving for college (on track to cover in-state tuition for our 2 kids)
- our cleaner comes every week instead of every other week
- we are taking more vacations (long weekends here and there in addition to longer August vacation)
- unexpected expenses can be handled fairly easily (the new roof gets paid for out of savings and we don't feel the pinch)

Seriously, that's about it. We are still driving the same cars. Kids still in public school. We are endlessly debating whether to move up from our 2200sq ft house but afraid to double the size of our mortgage (that's what it would take to stay inbounds for our current schools). We pay mega amounts of taxes (federal and state). We do NOT anticipate retiring at 55 with $5m in the bank. Definitely not on track for that.

+1. It's not enough to send your kids to private school, it's not to fully fund retirement and college (perhaps in-state), it's not enough for luxury cars or other high-end items, it's not enough for lavish vacations. It's middle class, albeit, on the upper end of middle class.

I agree with this. We have been in the 350-400 range for a few years and with child care, private pre-school, mortgage, 401k, 529 savings, etc., definitely felt like we had to budget and watch expenses. To me, that is upper middle class. We are now in the 500-600 range and feeling like we can splurge more on trips and not have to watch expenses so closely. Also, we have one kid in public now and our child care costs are decreasing. So I think the line between middle (albeit upper middle) and upper is around the $500k mark.

OP, we're going to hit 350-400 range for the first time this year. I haven't read the prior posts, but we feel like we have NO MONEY. Childcare for two kids, plus student loan debt over 400K. That's right, $400,000. So it is possible to not have much every month when you're making that kind of money.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is this so difficult for people to understand? If you live in a big expensive city like DC, middle class is from $50-$500K a year. The numbers are easily available by using the google unction. If you live in a smaller city or town, adjust downward. Both are middle class. The middle class is large with a wide range. the upper class begins with a net worth of over $10M and is very different than shopping at DSW.

That is so insane and out-of-touch it is not even funny. You think a family living in this area on 50k and another family living on 500k are both middle class?

Income is not the same as class.
Income is not the same as class.
Income is not the same as class.

What's so hard to understand?

In this country, it actually is.

$400K is not a lot of money AFTER YOU'VE SPENT IT ALL.

Think of all you've consumed before being left with "nothing" each month: expensive educations, excellent child care and health care, outstanding public schools, housing in one of the most desirable markets in the country, etc, etc. Nevermind your food, clothing, cars, retirement and college savings, etc. Most people can't fathom having even a few of these things, let alone all of them.

So stop whining. You've purchased a premium lifestyle with your spending power.

"Folks, it is time to pack things up and move elsewhere -- we did, and are much happier for it. I think that we need to accept the fact that some cities (NY, SF, now DC) are becoming so expensive that it is difficult for the upper-middle class/upper class to achieve the kind of life they "dream" of. Two ways around that problem. Adjust your expectations and "dreams" of the type of life (great schools, big house, luxury car) an upper-middle/upper-class salary should afford you, and enjoy living in the DC metropolitan area for other reasons. Or, move to a place in this country (and there are still many, many places like this if you are not a "DC"-centric snob) where your healthy salary (or even much less) will buy you that big house, great schools, and luxury car. Take it or leave it, but that is my advice for happiness. "

I agree.

Either you like living here so much - for other reasons - that you can accept the fact that your income here does not go as far as you would like it to;

OR

You make the mature and rationale decision to live in another part of the country - and don't let your DC bias hold you back - where your income (I am tired of the argument that you cannot find the jobs or close-to the income in other places, plenty of other educated people who live in those places do manage to) will earn you the kind of life you desire.

I had friends move to California last year, and they found the money trade-off to be almost a wash, but the better climate and outdoor lifestyle to suit them much better. The point is that people make tradeoffs for reasons other than purchasing power and earnings all the time - and are much happier for it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Go away trolly polly!!!

No troll. Everyone in that income range on here understands.

It's not a lot of money. Especially in DC/NoVa.

I think our society considers people like the Kardashians as the epitome of "rich," trashy as they may be. So if you're not constantly flying around in private planes, jetting off to places like Florence for destination weddings, cruising around on a private yacht for your family vacay, strutting your stuff in 600 shoes on a regular basis, then you think you you're middle class.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep. We're over $300K and have a lot in college and retirement savings (and a nice cash pas in the bank) but I don't feel I could throw $60K at a kitchen Reno without batting an eye, I don't buy expensive clothes, we drive an $11k car, and only own one! We do not live extravagantly and I feel comfortable but I can't fathom how people afford to save when they make less $. My brother makes $250k a year and confessed he doesn't have any $ saved for his 12 year olds college! I think keeping up w/ the joneses is half the problem.

We are similar- We make around $350K, have a nice lifestyle (two vacations/year), go to nice events, live in nice house. We've saved over $2M and I still shop at TJMaxx because I know we have to pay for 2 college educations and our retirement.

Omg. You don't really believe that most middle class people have the wherewithal to save 2 million dollars?? You might not have expensive clothes lady but your savings makes you "rich." Sad to be the one to have to tell ya.

For all you people complaining, you have to consider how long you've been making this kind of money. 400k in one year? Nice but not rich because you haven't had time to amass any significant savings. 400k/yr for ten years plus? It's a different story. You just have to be patient.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is this so difficult for people to understand? If you live in a big expensive city like DC, middle class is from $50-$500K a year. The numbers are easily available by using the google unction. If you live in a smaller city or town, adjust downward. Both are middle class. The middle class is large with a wide range. the upper class begins with a net worth of over $10M and is very different than shopping at DSW.

I can buy that upper middle class is $350-400k here. But it isn't middle. Sociologists separate the two.

Completely agree. 500k doesn't scream "middle class" to me. Not its not RICH. but no way is it middle.

Wait, so the people arguing against calling $350K "middle class" are ok with saying its "upper middle class"????

If that's the case we've all been wasting our time. I'm happy to admit to "upper middle class" but as the name suggests, "upper middle class" is the upper part of the middle. So it's middle class, but subject to further subdivisions, presumably upper middle, lower middle, and ... middle middle.

Yes. Let the NYT be your teacher. http://www.nytimes.com/national/class/

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you want to feel like the upper, upper middle class family that you statistically are, then move to a less expensive area. You will be much happier.

Good advice, but do you deny the previous decades of washington area middle class is not the same as today's?

Two things:

1) 100K in 1985 buys the same as $220K today. http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=100%2C000.00&year1=1985&year2=2014

2) Your parents likely had more to spend because they did not have to contribute to their employer-provided health plan, and they also most likely spent less on retirement because they had a pension or a 401K match.

Inflation by itself makes most of the difference between your parents and you. Taking the stuff their employers paid for, adding it to your salary and making you pay for it explains the rest. So in fact you have the same standard of living as your parents because you make roughly the same amount they did. Sorry, you didn't move up.

If there's any left over, it's pretty easy to see where that's gone -- the price for a median-priced home in the DC area has gone from about $150K in 1987 to over $400K today. http://www.jparsons.net/housingbubble/washington.html

Thank you!

This post should be made sticky at the top of this page and required reading before anyone posts. FFS.

Anonymous wrote:$350-400K in this area *is* middle class.

Call it "upper middle class" if you like. It's not upper class.

We have doubled our income in the past 5 years. From just under $200K to just under $400K. How has life changed for us?
- regular expenses are covered as a matter of course (don't have to be constantly checking the bank balance to make sure there's enough to cover)
- we are now saving for college (on track to cover in-state tuition for our 2 kids)
- our cleaner comes every week instead of every other week
- we are taking more vacations (long weekends here and there in addition to longer August vacation)
- unexpected expenses can be handled fairly easily (the new roof gets paid for out of savings and we don't feel the pinch)

Seriously, that's about it. We are still driving the same cars. Kids still in public school. We are endlessly debating whether to move up from our 2200sq ft house but afraid to double the size of our mortgage (that's what it would take to stay inbounds for our current schools). We pay mega amounts of taxes (federal and state). We do NOT anticipate retiring at 55 with $5m in the bank. Definitely not on track for that.

+1. It's not enough to send your kids to private school, it's not to fully fund retirement and college (perhaps in-state), it's not enough for luxury cars or other high-end items, it's not enough for lavish vacations. It's middle class, albeit, on the upper end of middle class.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is this so difficult for people to understand? If you live in a big expensive city like DC, middle class is from $50-$500K a year. The numbers are easily available by using the google unction. If you live in a smaller city or town, adjust downward. Both are middle class. The middle class is large with a wide range. the upper class begins with a net worth of over $10M and is very different than shopping at DSW.

That is so insane and out-of-touch it is not even funny. You think a family living in this area on 50k and another family living on 500k are both middle class?

Income is not the same as class.
Income is not the same as class.
Income is not the same as class.

What's so hard to understand?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is this so difficult for people to understand? If you live in a big expensive city like DC, middle class is from $50-$500K a year. The numbers are easily available by using the google unction. If you live in a smaller city or town, adjust downward. Both are middle class. The middle class is large with a wide range. the upper class begins with a net worth of over $10M and is very different than shopping at DSW.

I can buy that upper middle class is $350-400k here. But it isn't middle. Sociologists separate the two.

Completely agree. 500k doesn't scream "middle class" to me. Not its not RICH. but no way is it middle.

Wait, so the people arguing against calling $350K "middle class" are ok with saying its "upper middle class"????

If that's the case we've all been wasting our time. I'm happy to admit to "upper middle class" but as the name suggests, "upper middle class" is the upper part of the middle. So it's middle class, but subject to further subdivisions, presumably upper middle, lower middle, and ... middle middle.