Anonymous wrote:
Whoah. Let's get this conversation aimed back toward reality.

High-IQ is probably a very tiny part genetics, and more a function of random deviation, no different than, say a child's height. Siblings in the same family may have very different IQs. The other aspect of it is if the raw intelligence capability that a child is born with is able to be developed and matured to a point where it can be advantageous where it comes to IQ scores or academics - and there, genetics and race probably have far less to do with it than culture and environment. Witness, for example, the Asian "tiger mom" driving achievement and performance or the competetive, A-type WASPy "keeping up with the Joneses" phenomenon. There are certainly many high-performing AAs out there as well - who likewise typically came from a very motivated and driven household. That's the culture piece - for the environment piece, look to studies on environmental justice, where often you will find polluting industries situated on cheaper, less-desirable real-estate - which is often also where low-income residences are located, and there are many industrial pollutants that can impact development, cause birth defects, neurological problems, et cetera.

That's far closer to reality. So please, let's get off this track of screaming racism or suggestions that people here are saying abhorrent things, like that blacks genetically have low IQ.

Are you assuming that race equals genetics, and culture is something different from race? In reality race is the intersection of genetics, culture, environment, perception, etc.

No-one in this thread has argued that AAs have lower IQs due to genetics. The book referenced above suggests that genetics do not play much of a factor.

However, it is established that AAs have lower IQ test scores, for whatever (non-genetic) reasons.

So the point is: if DC were to have a gifted and talented magnet school or program, and if that magnet school or program were to use IQ scores to determine who gets in, then proportionally few AAs would get in, based on what we know about IQ test results.

That may be how it shakes out in school districts that have G&T programs (AAs under-represented in G&T programs). But in DC, unlike a lot of other cities, AAs are the vast majority of the public school system and almost the majority overall in the population. So this would be a major political issue in DC. That is the point the PPs are trying to make.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here...thank you--but somewhat discouraging news.

OP, I'd say half the kids at our JKLM school are "gifted," so I wouldn't sweat it. Just because DCPS doesn't haven't a program doesn't mean that he won't be in school with kids at the same level. You'll be surprised.

Gifted by what measure?

Not PP, but many parents have their kids take the IQ tests just in case they decide on private school instead; so they know whether the child tests in the gifted ranges. Others have educational batteries done for learning disabilities, which also gives IQ scores. Also many at least look into CTY even if they decide not to pay for any of the programming, so that is another measure for parents. I certainly have not asked what other kids IQs are, but knowing my child's scores and comparing DCs work to classmates, DC is not alone by a long shot. Also I do know some who are doing CTY because the child has a particular interest, so that is another way to know.

When you're dealing with one of the worst school districts in the country overall, what does gifted mean? If all schools were as good as those West of the Park, would we be saying we have all these gifted students, I don't know? Difficult to tell without objective measures and again what does "gifted" really mean, in relation to your peers or are we referring to a cut-score?

I believe most of us are refering to the standard definition of gifted based on tested IQ scores -- school has nothing to do with it; it's the same test everybody takes. Here is a chart of the cut-scores: http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/highly_profoundly.htm Of course, this definition is narrow and much debated, but it is pretty standard.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: It would probably skew asian here in DC too. But, the important thing to note is that the fact that IQ tests skew to favor asians (and often kids of asian immigrants) - which actually shoots holes in the notion that it's all rigged to favor whites or rigged to favor high-SES, establishment insiders or white culture - rendering the political arguments about IQ tests being a function of "white privilege" rather unsound and irrelevant.

So, throwing that political argument out the door, we are back at the point of there not really being any legitimate argument why DCPS can't support better options for G&T students.

I generally agree with your argument against those who argue that there is a bias in IQ tests (if you'll excuse the double negative).

But perhaps you are using the phrase "political argument" differently?

A political argument is as follows: "I support policy X because it benefits 'my people' and I don't care about 'your people'".

'my people' could be democrats, republicans, blacks, whites.

The reason DC doesn't have G&T programs is because those programs are not anticipated to benefit the constituencies of those currently in power.

If the mayor thinks his political base is Ward 7 and 8, and he believes that students in those wards likely won't gain acceptance to a magnet program, then he won't support one unless he thinks he needs to take a more moderate stance to attract voters outside of his core wards.

This has everything to do with votes. The best we can do is advocate for this, and make it into a vocal issue, and then we might see politicians come out in favor.

It's one thing to support and help a group of constituents, but it's entirely a different thing to willfully neglect and underserve another group of constituents... Particularly so in this case, as these G&T kids are far more likely to grow up to be the influencers and game changers of the future.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those confused on the math or caught up in obfuscating the numbers, let's simplify. There are 76,000 students enrolled in DCPS and DC charters. The top 2% would be 1,500 students. Now, consider that there are entire DCPS schools which enroll fewer kids than that. Yet the argument is that there aren't enough kids to support it? That argument is completely laughable.

Well, the issue is how many of those kids would be AA? If you placed by IQ or something similar it would probably be 95+% white which would be political suicide.

Are you saying that Black people have low IQs? Damn, all these closet bigots come out in full force behind a computer screen.

That's not actually even open for debate; blacks score lower on IQ tests by about 1 standard deviation when compared to whites. I.e. the average IQ of blacks in the US is ~85 compared to ~100 for whites. What's often debated is whether the tests are biased towards/against certain groups and whether these differences stem from cultural differences, historical racism or are driven mostly by genetics.

Whoah. Let's get this conversation aimed back toward reality.

High-IQ is probably a very tiny part genetics, and more a function of random deviation, no different than, say a child's height. Siblings in the same family may have very different IQs. The other aspect of it is if the raw intelligence capability that a child is born with is able to be developed and matured to a point where it can be advantageous where it comes to IQ scores or academics - and there, genetics and race probably have far less to do with it than culture and environment. Witness, for example, the Asian "tiger mom" driving achievement and performance or the competetive, A-type WASPy "keeping up with the Joneses" phenomenon. There are certainly many high-performing AAs out there as well - who likewise typically came from a very motivated and driven household. That's the culture piece - for the environment piece, look to studies on environmental justice, where often you will find polluting industries situated on cheaper, less-desirable real-estate - which is often also where low-income residences are located, and there are many industrial pollutants that can impact development, cause birth defects, neurological problems, et cetera.

That's far closer to reality. So please, let's get off this track of screaming racism or suggestions that people here are saying abhorrent things, like that blacks genetically have low IQ.

I googled this issue of race and IQ, and found this. I don't know where it falls into the literature, but it is fascinating:

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/j/jencks-gap.html

Appears to be from 1998 - anyone know if there is something more authoritative since then, written in a popular style like this?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those confused on the math or caught up in obfuscating the numbers, let's simplify. There are 76,000 students enrolled in DCPS and DC charters. The top 2% would be 1,500 students. Now, consider that there are entire DCPS schools which enroll fewer kids than that. Yet the argument is that there aren't enough kids to support it? That argument is completely laughable.

Well, the issue is how many of those kids would be AA? If you placed by IQ or something similar it would probably be 95+% white which would be political suicide.

Bingo. This is why a targeted GT program is going to be unlikely here. Besides, 100% differentiation (a la the W.I.N. program) is about the only hope for real progress. Pull-outs and tracking will always miss kids, even with testing (studies are showing between 40-60% capture rates).

+1 NYC takes the top 3% - much MUCH bigger population - and even though the testing is blind on race, gender, SE status, etc. and purely based on test results, there are still complaints that the majority of kids at the magnets like Stuy and Bronx Science are Asian.

A gifted school like TJ and Stuy will not happen in DC b/c here it will be filled to brim with high SES, white kids.

It would probably skew asian here in DC too. But, the important thing to note is that the fact that IQ tests skew to favor asians (and often kids of asian immigrants) - which actually shoots holes in the notion that it's all rigged to favor whites or rigged to favor high-SES, establishment insiders or white culture - rendering the political arguments about IQ tests being a function of "white privilege" rather unsound and irrelevant.

So, throwing that political argument out the door, we are back at the point of there not really being any legitimate argument why DCPS can't support better options for G&T students.

You realize that many of those Asian immigrants are highly educated professionals who would be considered upper middle class in their countries. So while high IQ is not a function of "white privilege", it is a function of class and SES no matter what your nationality.

Anonymous wrote:Oh no - see you can never call the people who say these patently racist things racists. Because "nobody was talking about race" blah blah blah. It is fascinating how people can rant about all this stuff, coding it with all these euphemisms (FARMS, etc. etc.) . And when they get called racist they are so offended. It is so repugnant. So tired of it.

Being constantly accused of racism is what is repugnant and tiresome. It's you who keeps accusing people of "talking in code" and putting words in their mouths. Give it a rest.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those confused on the math or caught up in obfuscating the numbers, let's simplify. There are 76,000 students enrolled in DCPS and DC charters. The top 2% would be 1,500 students. Now, consider that there are entire DCPS schools which enroll fewer kids than that. Yet the argument is that there aren't enough kids to support it? That argument is completely laughable.

Well, the issue is how many of those kids would be AA? If you placed by IQ or something similar it would probably be 95+% white which would be political suicide.

Are you saying that Black people have low IQs? Damn, all these closet bigots come out in full force behind a computer screen.

That's not actually even open for debate; blacks score lower on IQ tests by about 1 standard deviation when compared to whites. I.e. the average IQ of blacks in the US is ~85 compared to ~100 for whites. What's often debated is whether the tests are biased towards/against certain groups and whether these differences stem from cultural differences, historical racism or are driven mostly by genetics.

Oh no - see you can never call the people who say these patently racist things racists. Because "nobody was talking about race" blah blah blah. It is fascinating how people can rant about all this stuff, coding it with all these euphemisms (FARMS, etc. etc.) . And when they get called racist they are so offended. It is so repugnant. So tired of it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those confused on the math or caught up in obfuscating the numbers, let's simplify. There are 76,000 students enrolled in DCPS and DC charters. The top 2% would be 1,500 students. Now, consider that there are entire DCPS schools which enroll fewer kids than that. Yet the argument is that there aren't enough kids to support it? That argument is completely laughable.

Well, the issue is how many of those kids would be AA? If you placed by IQ or something similar it would probably be 95+% white which would be political suicide.

Are you saying that Black people have low IQs? Damn, all these closet bigots come out in full force behind a computer screen.

The IQ tests (variations of IQ tests) that other districts use in order to identify students for pull-out, separated, gifted and talented programs skew significantly towards whites and Asians. That is one of the controversies the NYC gifted program faces. Why is this the case that whites and Asians do so much better on IQ tests versus AAs or Hispanics? Who knows? (Yet another reason not to put too much stock in IQ.) However, this is the reason that DCPS doesn't want to have a rigid, GT-by-identification-only policy that rests on IQ tests (or a variation thereof.) That is why DCPS has instead chosen to invest in programs, resources, professional development for schools to differentiate (both inside and outside) of class.

Anonymous wrote: It would probably skew asian here in DC too. But, the important thing to note is that the fact that IQ tests skew to favor asians (and often kids of asian immigrants) - which actually shoots holes in the notion that it's all rigged to favor whites or rigged to favor high-SES, establishment insiders or white culture - rendering the political arguments about IQ tests being a function of "white privilege" rather unsound and irrelevant.

So, throwing that political argument out the door, we are back at the point of there not really being any legitimate argument why DCPS can't support better options for G&T students.

I generally agree with your argument against those who argue that there is a bias in IQ tests (if you'll excuse the double negative).

But perhaps you are using the phrase "political argument" differently?

A political argument is as follows: "I support policy X because it benefits 'my people' and I don't care about 'your people'".

'my people' could be democrats, republicans, blacks, whites.

The reason DC doesn't have G&T programs is because those programs are not anticipated to benefit the constituencies of those currently in power.

If the mayor thinks his political base is Ward 7 and 8, and he believes that students in those wards likely won't gain acceptance to a magnet program, then he won't support one unless he thinks he needs to take a more moderate stance to attract voters outside of his core wards.

This has everything to do with votes. The best we can do is advocate for this, and make it into a vocal issue, and then we might see politicians come out in favor.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those confused on the math or caught up in obfuscating the numbers, let's simplify. There are 76,000 students enrolled in DCPS and DC charters. The top 2% would be 1,500 students. Now, consider that there are entire DCPS schools which enroll fewer kids than that. Yet the argument is that there aren't enough kids to support it? That argument is completely laughable.

Well, the issue is how many of those kids would be AA? If you placed by IQ or something similar it would probably be 95+% white which would be political suicide.

Bingo. This is why a targeted GT program is going to be unlikely here. Besides, 100% differentiation (a la the W.I.N. program) is about the only hope for real progress. Pull-outs and tracking will always miss kids, even with testing (studies are showing between 40-60% capture rates).

+1 NYC takes the top 3% - much MUCH bigger population - and even though the testing is blind on race, gender, SE status, etc. and purely based on test results, there are still complaints that the majority of kids at the magnets like Stuy and Bronx Science are Asian.

A gifted school like TJ and Stuy will not happen in DC b/c here it will be filled to brim with high SES, white kids.

It would probably skew asian here in DC too. But, the important thing to note is that the fact that IQ tests skew to favor asians (and often kids of asian immigrants) - which actually shoots holes in the notion that it's all rigged to favor whites or rigged to favor high-SES, establishment insiders or white culture - rendering the political arguments about IQ tests being a function of "white privilege" rather unsound and irrelevant.

So, throwing that political argument out the door, we are back at the point of there not really being any legitimate argument why DCPS can't support better options for G&T students.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those confused on the math or caught up in obfuscating the numbers, let's simplify. There are 76,000 students enrolled in DCPS and DC charters. The top 2% would be 1,500 students. Now, consider that there are entire DCPS schools which enroll fewer kids than that. Yet the argument is that there aren't enough kids to support it? That argument is completely laughable.

Well, the issue is how many of those kids would be AA? If you placed by IQ or something similar it would probably be 95+% white which would be political suicide.

Bingo. This is why a targeted GT program is going to be unlikely here. Besides, 100% differentiation (a la the W.I.N. program) is about the only hope for real progress. Pull-outs and tracking will always miss kids, even with testing (studies are showing between 40-60% capture rates).

+1 NYC takes the top 3% - much MUCH bigger population - and even though the testing is blind on race, gender, SE status, etc. and purely based on test results, there are still complaints that the majority of kids at the magnets like Stuy and Bronx Science are Asian.

A gifted school like TJ and Stuy will not happen in DC b/c here it will be filled to brim with high SES, white kids.

different demographics , but TJ and Stuyvessant have white kids as a considerable minority. Both overwhelmingly east and south asian.

And even fewer AA and Hispanics than whites... Asians rule in test-in magnets even when they are less than 10% of the population.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those confused on the math or caught up in obfuscating the numbers, let's simplify. There are 76,000 students enrolled in DCPS and DC charters. The top 2% would be 1,500 students. Now, consider that there are entire DCPS schools which enroll fewer kids than that. Yet the argument is that there aren't enough kids to support it? That argument is completely laughable.

Well, the issue is how many of those kids would be AA? If you placed by IQ or something similar it would probably be 95+% white which would be political suicide.

Bingo. This is why a targeted GT program is going to be unlikely here. Besides, 100% differentiation (a la the W.I.N. program) is about the only hope for real progress. Pull-outs and tracking will always miss kids, even with testing (studies are showing between 40-60% capture rates).

+1 NYC takes the top 3% - much MUCH bigger population - and even though the testing is blind on race, gender, SE status, etc. and purely based on test results, there are still complaints that the majority of kids at the magnets like Stuy and Bronx Science are Asian.

A gifted school like TJ and Stuy will not happen in DC b/c here it will be filled to brim with high SES, white kids.

different demographics , but TJ and Stuyvessant have white kids as a considerable minority. Both overwhelmingly east and south asian.