Anonymous
Post 01/23/2014 16:59     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why are you so concerned with "measuring" your kids? What are you "measuring" them against?

What are you so afraid will happen if they don't "measure" up, either temporarilily or permanently?
And why are you so convinced that they will only "measure" up if you force them to?



Accusing me of "measuring" my kids is complete distortion of what I just said. I'll thank you for stopping that.

My point was, I actually agree that grades shouldn't be the measure. I never, ever said we should "force" kids to get As.

However, I do heartily believe that we should encourage effort (the bold is for your own, private benefit). Without encouraging effort we end up with a nation of entitled slackers who are still living with Mom and Dad in their 30s, and Mom and Dad are still paying the cable bill and shopping for the chips. Is that really what you want? So I asked you how you measure effort since we agree that we shouldn't be measuring grades. So why don't you go back and try again to answer the question.


I' m not the PP to whom you are directing your aggressive question, but I'll offer an idea.

How do you measure effort? You don't.

Instead, you talk with your child in a way that helps THEM learn to notice, measure and assess their effort. Because ultimately, that's what it's all about. Not doing it for Mommy, but doing it for themselves.

What does this look like in reality?

It's a dialogue where the focus is on THEM, not you.

For example, you ask them how they went about preparing for something. You ask them how they feel about the effort they put in. You ask them what they think of the outcome. You ask them what they think about the relationship between their effort and the outcome.

Do you ask these questions all at once? Of course not. It's not an inquisition.

Do you you ask them after every assignment or grade? Again, no.

Instead, you integrate the questions in small bits into the many other conversations you have over time time with your DC. You ask sometimes when they do well (to hear them describe to you and to themselves what was effective). And you ask sometimes when they didn't do well. It's just a normal "sometimes" topic of conversation among many others.

But here's the key:

You need to have the right motive and intent in asking these questions.

You don't ask about their efforts (or their feelings about their efforts or results) as a test or a quiz to see if they come up with the "right" answer according to you.

You ask because you're curious and eager to understand your child as he is right now, to hold his hand as he figures things out and develops over time. You ask in order to listen, and you listen to understand. Not necessarily to correct. Help your kid slow down enough to notice and evaluate his own choices, and give him space and cheer him on as he learns to make choices that work.

Again, you need to honest with yourself up front. if you're going to ask your kid questions like this with judgment (or worse, with "corrective action" in mind if he's not yet where you think he should be), please hold your tongue. You will only do further damage, and it's best to steer clear.


I happen to agree with you that the point is internal motivation. I asked a reasonable question.

Your post speaks more to what's going on in your own warped, manipulative mind. I NEVER SAID the things you attribute to me. Instead, you've twisted my post into some sort of fascist inquisition focussed on the parent not the child, by putting a whole bunch of words into my mouth and assuming things that nobody sane or rationale could read in my post. This says a whole lot more about you than about me. You're psychotic, and your own post is incredibly aggressive and manipulative.

Goodbye.
Anonymous
Post 01/23/2014 16:46     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why are you so concerned with "measuring" your kids? What are you "measuring" them against?

What are you so afraid will happen if they don't "measure" up, either temporarilily or permanently?
And why are you so convinced that they will only "measure" up if you force them to?



Accusing me of "measuring" my kids is complete distortion of what I just said. I'll thank you for stopping that.

My point was, I actually agree that grades shouldn't be the measure. I never, ever said we should "force" kids to get As.

However, I do heartily believe that we should encourage effort (the bold is for your own, private benefit). Without encouraging effort we end up with a nation of entitled slackers who are still living with Mom and Dad in their 30s, and Mom and Dad are still paying the cable bill and shopping for the chips. Is that really what you want? So I asked you how you measure effort since we agree that we shouldn't be measuring grades. So why don't you go back and try again to answer the question.


I' m not the PP to whom you are directing your aggressive question, but I'll offer an idea.

How do you measure effort? You don't.

Instead, you talk with your child in a way that helps THEM learn to notice, measure and assess their effort. Because ultimately, that's what it's all about. Not doing it for Mommy, but doing it for themselves.

What does this look like in reality?

It's a dialogue where the focus is on THEM, not you.

For example, you ask them how they went about preparing for something. You ask them how they feel about the effort they put in. You ask them what they think of the outcome. You ask them what they think about the relationship between their effort and the outcome.

Do you ask these questions all at once? Of course not. It's not an inquisition.

Do you you ask them after every assignment or grade? Again, no.

Instead, you integrate the questions in small bits into the many other conversations you have over time time with your DC. You ask sometimes when they do well (to hear them describe to you and to themselves what was effective). And you ask sometimes when they didn't do well. It's just a normal "sometimes" topic of conversation among many others.

But here's the key:

You need to have the right motive and intent in asking these questions.

You don't ask about their efforts (or their feelings about their efforts or results) as a test or a quiz to see if they come up with the "right" answer according to you.

You ask because you're curious and eager to understand your child as he is right now, to hold his hand as he figures things out and develops over time. You ask in order to listen, and you listen to understand. Not necessarily to correct. Help your kid slow down enough to notice and evaluate his own choices, and give him space and cheer him on as he learns to make choices that work.

Again, you need to honest with yourself up front. if you're going to ask your kid questions like this with judgment (or worse, with "corrective action" in mind if he's not yet where you think he should be), please hold your tongue. You will only do further damage, and it's best to steer clear.
Anonymous
Post 01/23/2014 14:33     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Anonymous wrote:Why are you so concerned with "measuring" your kids? What are you "measuring" them against?

What are you so afraid will happen if they don't "measure" up, either temporarilily or permanently?
And why are you so convinced that they will only "measure" up if you force them to?



Accusing me of "measuring" my kids is complete distortion of what I just said. I'll thank you for stopping that.

My point was, I actually agree that grades shouldn't be the measure. I never, ever said we should "force" kids to get As.

However, I do heartily believe that we should encourage effort (the bold is for your own, private benefit). Without encouraging effort we end up with a nation of entitled slackers who are still living with Mom and Dad in their 30s, and Mom and Dad are still paying the cable bill and shopping for the chips. Is that really what you want? So I asked you how you measure effort since we agree that we shouldn't be measuring grades. So why don't you go back and try again to answer the question.
Anonymous
Post 01/23/2014 14:27     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Anonymous wrote:Also, exaggerate? We're talking about parents who literally are using corporate jargon like "corrective action plans" and "performance reviews" to manage their children.

Yes, I'm the one who needs a rebuke.


You're the one who apparently hasn't read any parenting books within the last 2 decades. It's not like people are making these phrases up. It's also not like these books are promoting do-it-yourself fascist regimes in the comfort of your home. The jargon is just shorthand for various actions that are much more reasonable than (admittedly) they sound.

You wouldn't know because you clearly haven't read any modern parenting books, but this isn't your parents' "spare the rod, spoil the child" stuff. My take on it is, most of the books these days are strongly (very strongly!) eschewing punishment for bad behavior and instead they are promoting rewards for good behaviors.

(And I must have missed the stuff about "performance reviews" because that's a new one on me, although admittedly I haven't read the whole thread. Must be a parenting book I never read.)
Anonymous
Post 01/23/2014 14:20     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Also, exaggerate? We're talking about parents who literally are using corporate jargon like "corrective action plans" and "performance reviews" to manage their children.

Yes, I'm the one who needs a rebuke.
Anonymous
Post 01/23/2014 14:16     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Why are you so concerned with "measuring" your kids? What are you "measuring" them against?

What are you so afraid will happen if they don't "measure" up, either temporarilily or permanently?
And why are you so convinced that they will only "measure" up if you force them to?
Anonymous
Post 01/23/2014 14:08     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Anonymous wrote:Jesus, good luck to you people. I had hands-off parents who praised outcomes rather than process, and turned out incredibly risk-averse but still pretty successful in a profession I could do in my sleep. I'll try to raise my daughters differently because I think I understand better what the pressure of accomplishment can do to sensitive kids.

But there's a bigger point to be made here. Beyond what "reward" system your child develops or becomes accustomed to, I really hope you all have elastic kids that just shrug off the fact that their parents so obviously value them, in part, based on how they perform ACADEMICALLY.

No, you say? You're posting in an anonymous forum hoping for support from other overbearing parents regarding the fact that you yell at your kid all the time to do better in school! You sit your child down after they perform badly to work with them on how they can perform better (read: please YOU) better in the future! Your child is 10 YEARS OLD!

I don't get it, I really don't. Some people on this site write as if they're strategizing how to win the Mommy Olympics. I hope that medal you get after 18 years when your child gets into a lesser Ivy is worth the 10 years of yelling, cajoling, and deprivation you put your child through. I mean, my word, the alternative is...a STATE SCHOOL [shudder]. Happy kid, schmappy kid, can't have a STATE SCHOOL.


Exaggerate much? Are histrionics like this something you learned from your parents?

Seriously though, I agree that the emphasis should be on efforts not grades. I'm not the helicopter OP or any of the Asian PPs. My only issue is, how do you measure "effort" without looking at results or, probably worse, standing behind them to see that they're reading the textbook instead of taking a break on Facebook. We've settled for keeping the door to the bedroom open so we can at least see that they are at their desks, but we don't walk over to investigate what's on the laptop screen. Others make their kids study in the kitchen. So tell us, oh wise one, how do you measure "effort" in your family?
Anonymous
Post 01/23/2014 13:43     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Jesus, good luck to you people. I had hands-off parents who praised outcomes rather than process, and turned out incredibly risk-averse but still pretty successful in a profession I could do in my sleep. I'll try to raise my daughters differently because I think I understand better what the pressure of accomplishment can do to sensitive kids.

But there's a bigger point to be made here. Beyond what "reward" system your child develops or becomes accustomed to, I really hope you all have elastic kids that just shrug off the fact that their parents so obviously value them, in part, based on how they perform ACADEMICALLY.

No, you say? You're posting in an anonymous forum hoping for support from other overbearing parents regarding the fact that you yell at your kid all the time to do better in school! You sit your child down after they perform badly to work with them on how they can perform better (read: please YOU) better in the future! Your child is 10 YEARS OLD!

I don't get it, I really don't. Some people on this site write as if they're strategizing how to win the Mommy Olympics. I hope that medal you get after 18 years when your child gets into a lesser Ivy is worth the 10 years of yelling, cajoling, and deprivation you put your child through. I mean, my word, the alternative is...a STATE SCHOOL [shudder]. Happy kid, schmappy kid, can't have a STATE SCHOOL.
Anonymous
Post 01/23/2014 13:05     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Anonymous wrote:I almost agreed with your almost agreement of me.

Then, I reflected that although I am not a tiger mom, I know full well (alas) that the helicopter mom shoe fits me quite well. I try to be a stealth mom (so that I hover in the background and make sure I know every little thing that is going on, even though I don't necessarily engage kid about every little "mistep" I notice).

If I could just get him to care about science like he cares about piano...

Sheesh, at least he cares about something. I only wish, for my kid. Maybe you could get your prodigy interested in the physics of sound.
Anonymous
Post 01/23/2014 10:54     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell

I have heard about "the pressure cooker" environment of NOVA and now seeing also MD parents from a very, very young age. It is important to set the positive atmosphere and rules for learning in your home right from the start when children are young. However, it is also very key NOT to put the child's self-worth in a parent's eye so focused on the grades earned. Here I am seeing folks who watch for a trend between even two or three assignments...really sad. A child "learns labels" ever so early. A friend has young twins turning five and one already is saying "She does not do XXX as well as or as fast as her sister." And it is true the innate intuitiveness and perception of one is ahead of her peers. BUT, the parent is very careful right from the start asking how to maintain the self-esteem of both.

Be sure to keep an eye out for what "distractions" might be in their studying environment at home such as in-room tvs, cds, phone, computers whatever that are natural distractions. Also, consider how your child can handle any outside activities that "you" may have them in or let them sign up for. Some kids can't be out and running to and from this and that before and after dinner all year long. Maybe have a talk right from the start in the early years about what is sensible to try considering closely a young child's need for sleep, time to chill after school, time to explore interests - arts, music, sports balanced against your focus on All A's every day. And most importantly, time to just be a child........

Otherwise, two things might happen - they will close your voice out on grades and/or on even other more important aspects/pressures of their lives. Or they will come to depend so much on Mommie and Daddy that they will never learn to be independent and be on your doorstep forever emotionally or otherwise. And children within a household can vary in their abilities and needs to reach goals AND this also needs to be balanced out as best as one can.
Anonymous
Post 01/23/2014 10:22     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
I almost agreed with your almost agreement of me.

Then, I reflected that although I am not a tiger mom, I know full well (alas) that the helicopter mom shoe fits me quite well. I try to be a stealth mom (so that I hover in the background and make sure I know every little thing that is going on, even though I don't necessarily engage kid about every little "mistep" I notice).

If I could just get him to care about science like he cares about piano...
Anonymous
Post 01/23/2014 09:29     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:OP - I worry about you two in middle school. Honestly, your response to my post shows you are micromanaging beyond micromanaging. You care about an A on every last assignment? That is not going to serve you well in middle school. I can promise you that.

When I said "clerical," I didn't mean "its stupid, you don't have to do it." I meant the assignment was probably done, possibly turned in, possibly misplaced during a period when there was a sub and my child wasn't going to push the teacher any further. His call. Not mine to make.

You should also know that a) blackboard won't tell you everything you need to know about turned in assignments with enough time to remedy every little stupid assignment, and b) teachers sometimes won't accept work after it is too late, and you can't force the teacher to take it. There are a lot of assignments.

Good luck.


PP Are you reading into this thread the type of mom that you think I am rather than what I wrote?

I specifically said I don't give my kid a hard time for every non-A assignment. That is too much pressure for any kid.

I never said that my DD would receive any credit for a late assignment. She would complete it and would try to turn it in regardless of whether she earned credit or not. If she had been rebuffed for trying to turn it in well that would be the consequence. In the teacher's mind, I have to believe he/she would remember the attempt.

In the hypothetical, I was talking about a multiday major assignment that my DD chose to complete the last day. I never said the blackboard told her everything she needed to know. If she had started it early though, she would have had the chance to ask the teacher a question.


Again, I see an excuse...the sub lost my sons work so he got a B-. Please- your son probably lied to you and never turned in the work. I have a hard time believing he would be okay with a B because of a clerical error on the part of the teacher.



You posted as if you wanted advice. Turns out you want validation. Good luck to you.


I almost agreed with this, but then I realized she does want advice. But only regarding a very narrow issue:

How to force her 10 year old DD to get straight A's without yelling at her?

Some fellow Helicopter Moms chimed in with advice on that issue, and OP gratefully accepted it.

OP also asked for some advice about how to help her DD dbecome more internally motivated.

On that issue, she seems to have rejected all advice, perhaps because it conflicts with the Helicopter Mom approach on issue one?

Anonymous
Post 01/22/2014 22:06     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:OP - I worry about you two in middle school. Honestly, your response to my post shows you are micromanaging beyond micromanaging. You care about an A on every last assignment? That is not going to serve you well in middle school. I can promise you that.

When I said "clerical," I didn't mean "its stupid, you don't have to do it." I meant the assignment was probably done, possibly turned in, possibly misplaced during a period when there was a sub and my child wasn't going to push the teacher any further. His call. Not mine to make.

You should also know that a) blackboard won't tell you everything you need to know about turned in assignments with enough time to remedy every little stupid assignment, and b) teachers sometimes won't accept work after it is too late, and you can't force the teacher to take it. There are a lot of assignments.

Good luck.


PP Are you reading into this thread the type of mom that you think I am rather than what I wrote?

I specifically said I don't give my kid a hard time for every non-A assignment. That is too much pressure for any kid.

I never said that my DD would receive any credit for a late assignment. She would complete it and would try to turn it in regardless of whether she earned credit or not. If she had been rebuffed for trying to turn it in well that would be the consequence. In the teacher's mind, I have to believe he/she would remember the attempt.

In the hypothetical, I was talking about a multiday major assignment that my DD chose to complete the last day. I never said the blackboard told her everything she needed to know. If she had started it early though, she would have had the chance to ask the teacher a question.


Again, I see an excuse...the sub lost my sons work so he got a B-. Please- your son probably lied to you and never turned in the work. I have a hard time believing he would be okay with a B because of a clerical error on the part of the teacher.



You posted as if you wanted advice. Turns out you want validation. Good luck to you.
Anonymous
Post 01/22/2014 22:00     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote: In any case, these parents are not casting dispersions on people like me as they know that much of being successful is working hard in whatever you focus on.

I think you mean aspersions, OP


Yes...oops!
Anonymous
Post 01/22/2014 21:45     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Your daughter will gradually start to reject your management, it's the nature of things. The habits may or may not stick, but it's probably worth the consistent reinforcement now, while she's still malleable.