Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I want my children to love God. I want them to be faithful Christian boys and faithful Christian men one day. I want this because I have very sincere beliefs that cause me to know that a strong faith has enriched my life in countless ways. I want them to be similarly enriched. So you may think it is weird that I want my kids to love God, but that is just a normal thing for people who truly believe. We want to share that belief. That belief brings us joy that we would never want to keep to ourselves.

Change this a little and see if it stands:
"I want my children to love the violin. I want them to be faithful violin students and faithful violinists one day. I want this because I have very sincere dsire to play the violin that cause me to know that a strong interest in violin music has enriched my life in countless ways. I want them to be similarly enriched. So you may think it is weird that I want my kids to love the ciolin, but that is just a normal thing for people who truly feel that way. We want to share that feeling. That feeling brings us joy that we would never want to keep to ourselves."

I bet if you exposed both your kids to the violin and one or neither of them wanted to continue playing, that you wouldn't force them. You might notice, sadly, that they didn't have an ear for it, and would look for another musical instrument for them or let them choose a non-musical pursuit that they had expressed an interest in. You wouldn't expect them to be just like each other or just like you when it came to talent for or love of the violin.

You compared the violin to God -- brilliant -- 'cause you know it is the same thing. Geez, if you don't believe in God, that is your choice. But, what is the point of getting on a thread to knock down those of us who do? do your thing and others will do theirs.

I take it that you think that God, being God, can't be compared to anything. If so, that's a position of extreme privilege that I don't share.

I AM doing my own thing. I'm expressing my opinion and sharing my thoughts. Usually, when people disagree about things, it's not perceived as "knocking down" others beliefs.

If you want to discuss your beliefs only with people who agree, perhaps you should avoid a public forum. That's what this is -- not a house of worship and not your house of worship.

LOL!
Arrogant much?

I'm lost. Who's arrogant and about what?

I take it that you think that God, being God, can't be compared to anything. If so, that's a position of extreme privilege that I don't share.

I AM doing my own thing. I'm expressing my opinion and sharing my thoughts. Usually, when people disagree about things, it's not perceived as "knocking down" others beliefs.

If you want to discuss your beliefs only with people who agree, perhaps you should avoid a public forum. That's what this is -- not a house of worship and not your house of worship.

LOL!
Arrogant much?

I'm not the PP, but I'm perplexed. How is what he/she wrote arrogant?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The greatest thing you can do, IMO, is keep strong the domestic church in your home. Live by example be open to talking with your children and taking an interest in them, not just religiously. Build strong connections, create a foundation of love. Pray for them regularly. Keep God in their world so He doesn't seem like a foreign concept if they find themselves seeking Him or wondering more about Him.

THIS! Make the Love of the Lord the broad context and foundation of your family. Each person has to develop a PERSONAL relationship with God. Stop trying to "make it" happen. Make it something they see or you will end up driving them away.

And keep in mind that your children may never develop a personal relationship with God, because they simply can't fathom such a being and the society they are growing up in is not as god-centered.

Did you hear that the humanist mayor-elect of Boston had a humanist chaplain (as well as various clergy) say a few words at a city event? The humanists were shut out ofter the Boston Marathon killings and the new mayor didn't want it to happen again.

This is the kind of thing that is going to happen more often in your kids' lives. They will see that people who do not not invoke god are part of mainstream society.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I want my children to love God. I want them to be faithful Christian boys and faithful Christian men one day. I want this because I have very sincere beliefs that cause me to know that a strong faith has enriched my life in countless ways. I want them to be similarly enriched. So you may think it is weird that I want my kids to love God, but that is just a normal thing for people who truly believe. We want to share that belief. That belief brings us joy that we would never want to keep to ourselves.

Change this a little and see if it stands:
"I want my children to love the violin. I want them to be faithful violin students and faithful violinists one day. I want this because I have very sincere dsire to play the violin that cause me to know that a strong interest in violin music has enriched my life in countless ways. I want them to be similarly enriched. So you may think it is weird that I want my kids to love the ciolin, but that is just a normal thing for people who truly feel that way. We want to share that feeling. That feeling brings us joy that we would never want to keep to ourselves."

I bet if you exposed both your kids to the violin and one or neither of them wanted to continue playing, that you wouldn't force them. You might notice, sadly, that they didn't have an ear for it, and would look for another musical instrument for them or let them choose a non-musical pursuit that they had expressed an interest in. You wouldn't expect them to be just like each other or just like you when it came to talent for or love of the violin.

You compared the violin to God -- brilliant -- 'cause you know it is the same thing. Geez, if you don't believe in God, that is your choice. But, what is the point of getting on a thread to knock down those of us who do? do your thing and others will do theirs.

I take it that you think that God, being God, can't be compared to anything. If so, that's a position of extreme privilege that I don't share.

I AM doing my own thing. I'm expressing my opinion and sharing my thoughts. Usually, when people disagree about things, it's not perceived as "knocking down" others beliefs.

If you want to discuss your beliefs only with people who agree, perhaps you should avoid a public forum. That's what this is -- not a house of worship and not your house of worship.

LOL!
Arrogant much?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I want my children to love God. I want them to be faithful Christian boys and faithful Christian men one day. I want this because I have very sincere beliefs that cause me to know that a strong faith has enriched my life in countless ways. I want them to be similarly enriched. So you may think it is weird that I want my kids to love God, but that is just a normal thing for people who truly believe. We want to share that belief. That belief brings us joy that we would never want to keep to ourselves.

Change this a little and see if it stands:
"I want my children to love the violin. I want them to be faithful violin students and faithful violinists one day. I want this because I have very sincere dsire to play the violin that cause me to know that a strong interest in violin music has enriched my life in countless ways. I want them to be similarly enriched. So you may think it is weird that I want my kids to love the ciolin, but that is just a normal thing for people who truly feel that way. We want to share that feeling. That feeling brings us joy that we would never want to keep to ourselves."

I bet if you exposed both your kids to the violin and one or neither of them wanted to continue playing, that you wouldn't force them. You might notice, sadly, that they didn't have an ear for it, and would look for another musical instrument for them or let them choose a non-musical pursuit that they had expressed an interest in. You wouldn't expect them to be just like each other or just like you when it came to talent for or love of the violin.

You compared the violin to God -- brilliant -- 'cause you know it is the same thing. Geez, if you don't believe in God, that is your choice. But, what is the point of getting on a thread to knock down those of us who do? do your thing and others will do theirs.

I take it that you think that God, being God, can't be compared to anything. If so, that's a position of extreme privilege that I don't share.

I AM doing my own thing. I'm expressing my opinion and sharing my thoughts. Usually, when people disagree about things, it's not perceived as "knocking down" others beliefs.

If you want to discuss your beliefs only with people who agree, perhaps you should avoid a public forum. That's what this is -- not a house of worship and not your house of worship.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am 10:01 and 10:07 and see both posters as indoctrinating their children, though one is much more mild than the other.

In fact, one is so mild that it almost doesn't seem like indoctrination, except for this one line: "Showing your kids that faith, and Gods love are all you really need in this world."

Your kids may find, as many good people have, that having a particular religious faith and believing in a God who provides love are totally unneccesary to their well-being.

Yes, but there is nothing wrong with telling your children, "this is a guiding principle in our family." They may grow up and away from these principles but the parents aren't misguided for creating a family around deeply held beliefs.

"This is a guiding principle" is different from "faith, and Gods love are all you really need in this world." (unless the guiding principle is that God's love is all that is needed in life.) If my comments here helped formulate a different view, I feel my time here has been well spent. If you're still referring to God's love, I suggest putting it in such a way that it applies to your own life - that's it's a guiding principle for you. The'll get the idea that's it's important and also that they are not expected to think the exact same thing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You sound nothing like my older kid. He says he is agnostic. He does not pray. He loves youth group but hates going to service. All of which is fine with me; I've given him the foundation and now it is up to him whether or not to do anything with it.

He is interested in spirituality and religion as academic matters, e.g. comparative religion and the role religion and religious beliefs play in politics.

So no, nothing like you.

Perhaps not. But that questing and searching feels very familiar to me and it's a stage I went through. In any case, all I'm saying is that it's possible that your son may walk away from religion entirely when he's older; his interest at this point does not necessarily translate to belief as an adult. It may, of course. I'm just saying that it may not, also.

My parents never rejected me, when, as an adult, I finally told them (years later!) that I didn't believe in god. I wish I could have told them earlier and I wish I'd understood that there was such a thing as atheism as a child rather than as an adult. But I feel in many ways I had a much easier path out of religion than a lot of people raised with religion, because I wasn't rejected by my parents.

I never said he was questing or searching.

He has told me from time to time that he doesn't think he believes in God. He knows about atheism, agnosticism, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism.

Clearly he doesn't feel pressured to conform to anything, as you apparently did.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
FYI, I do not emphasize "only the specific version of God (we) want (our) children to know about." I teach my children about the only God I know and the religion I practice and believe in. Which is no different from teaching them about anything else I believe in and practice.

And I do it in the context of the world at large, not in a cult bubble hidden away in the wilderness.

So how is this the "only god you know" if you haven't been deprived oof or shielded from knowledge of other perceptions of god (or no god). Maybe this is the god you chose after checking out other gods and religions and now want your children to be limited to this god, even those they aren't naturally taking to it, the way you did.

Would you teach your kids to only eat peas, saying that it was the only vegetable you knew about and/or believed was good for your child, based on your own love of peas? If one of them left the peas on his plate everytime, Would you put him in a peas-only environment to encourage him to eat peas and to shield him from other forms of vegatables?

Probably not. Perhaps the analogy seems extreme - but it's still indoctrination.

If your other kid loved peas and refused other vegatables, would you encourage him to try other vegetables and teach him the benefits of variety in his diet? Probably - and you might also be happy that he's picked up his Mom's love of peas, without ever implying that peas were superior to any other vegetable because Mom loved them so.

By "only God I know" I mean, "the God I believe in." I double-majored in religion and philosophy. I know all about other religions. My kids are learning about those, too. I haven't been deprived of any knowledge, or access to knowledge, and I do not so deprive or limit my kids' access either. I do, however, share my beliefs with them and teach them about my beliefs.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I want my children to love God. I want them to be faithful Christian boys and faithful Christian men one day. I want this because I have very sincere beliefs that cause me to know that a strong faith has enriched my life in countless ways. I want them to be similarly enriched. So you may think it is weird that I want my kids to love God, but that is just a normal thing for people who truly believe. We want to share that belief. That belief brings us joy that we would never want to keep to ourselves.

Change this a little and see if it stands:
"I want my children to love the violin. I want them to be faithful violin students and faithful violinists one day. I want this because I have very sincere dsire to play the violin that cause me to know that a strong interest in violin music has enriched my life in countless ways. I want them to be similarly enriched. So you may think it is weird that I want my kids to love the ciolin, but that is just a normal thing for people who truly feel that way. We want to share that feeling. That feeling brings us joy that we would never want to keep to ourselves."

I bet if you exposed both your kids to the violin and one or neither of them wanted to continue playing, that you wouldn't force them. You might notice, sadly, that they didn't have an ear for it, and would look for another musical instrument for them or let them choose a non-musical pursuit that they had expressed an interest in. You wouldn't expect them to be just like each other or just like you when it came to talent for or love of the violin.

You compared the violin to God -- brilliant -- 'cause you know it is the same thing. Geez, if you don't believe in God, that is your choice. But, what is the point of getting on a thread to knock down those of us who do? do your thing and others will do theirs.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I believe I read about that statistic in the Pew Foundation report on religion, which came out a year or two ago.

It is pretty much impossible for me to converse with you on this when you refer to raising children with certain beliefs and values using the inflammatory term "indoctrination," particularly when you (was it you at 14:28?) cited my parenting practices in this arena as "respecting your kids, teaching them, and allowing them to make their own choices."

It's your call, of course, to cut of conversation in you want to, but please know that I'm using indoctrination correctly -- nothing inlamatory about it -- it just describes immersion in belief with minimal or no access to other beliefs or fact or evidence to the contrary of the beliefs.

I was not 14:28 and I agree that your approach is better than the person (assuming it's someone else) who has put their kids in Catholic to shield them from other points of view. I say that any religious instruction that teaches that one interpretation of God is the correct one that must be "believed" is indoctrination.

I was mildly indoctrinated as a child - taught that the tenets of Catholism were true (in Sunday school) and taught by my parents that protestants were good people who wrongly broke away from Catholism and that Jews could be good people despite the fact that they didn't believe that Jesus was the son of God. Still, it was indoctrination - based strictly on religious beliefs.

Too bad for you. I was not indoctrinated as a child, nor do I indoctrinate my children (per your definition).

Do you actively teach your kids about other religions and humanism? Do you tell them that morals are separate from religion -- that morals exist with or without religion? Do you teach them that the beliefs in religions are from stories that may not have actually happened and that "supernatural" means things that take place outside of nature for which there is no evidence? If so -- good for you -- you are not indoctrinating your children.

Yes to all.

And I already told you that I'm not indoctrinating my children. Not that I need you to verify that.

Anonymous wrote:The greatest thing you can do, IMO, is keep strong the domestic church in your home. Live by example be open to talking with your children and taking an interest in them, not just religiously. Build strong connections, create a foundation of love. Pray for them regularly. Keep God in their world so He doesn't seem like a foreign concept if they find themselves seeking Him or wondering more about Him.

THIS! Make the Love of the Lord the broad context and foundation of your family. Each person has to develop a PERSONAL relationship with God. Stop trying to "make it" happen. Make it something they see or you will end up driving them away.

I submit that, for the most part, criticism about religion seems mean-spirited because religion has been put in a special category that doesn't allow for much open criticism.

Too often, in my opinion, religion is given a privileged place it does not deserve. Treating it like most other issues seems mean-spirited when it is just unusual.

Right now, in our society, people are scrutinizing beliefs and attitudes about religion in a way that hasn't been done before -- just as we've previously scrutinized beliefs and attitudes about women and gays and racial minorities. I believe our society has improved because of that scrutiny and I think and hope the same thing will happen with religion.

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand why posters who don't agree with organized religion feel the need to post and demonize those who do.

Are you trying to enlighten those of us who have a different approach to raising our children? Do you even have children? Why did you stop at the religion forum to make your stand in defense of the children? Why not find a food forum where you can tell people they are depriving their kids by not giving them gluten or how they should let children make their own dietary decisions.

I'm being a bit facetious but am also asking honestly.

Why is it so important to say something that is not only unproductive but, at times, mean-spirited? There are those who are genuinely offering thought-provoking positions and I appreciate your maturity, but some others ...

And I find it interesting that those who are self-proclaimed agnostic or atheist -- the ones who are often humanist by default -- are some here who are most belligerent to other people. Why is that? Aren't you supposed to put your faith in your fellow humans.

I am the PP who was raised in a very religious environment. I don't think I've said anything that could remotely be characterized as demonizing. But to answer your question generally, a lot of atheists are actively rejected and wounded by their religious families because they, at a fundamental level, can't believe. A lot of them had to go through enormous pain to come to grips with their lack of faith. Even those with loving parents (and mine were) go through periods where they think there is something fundamentally wrong with them because they can't believe what their parents clearly think is what's critically necessary to living a loving, peaceful, joy-filled life. I remember being scared at night that I was going to hell, and my parents never once said anything about hell to me. But I read enough and understood enough about religions to know that some did, and who was I to say I wouldn't go? As an adult I reject that, of course. But it was scary as a child. As adults, I can see how some would be motivated to try to protect other kids from what they went through. Of course, kindness is always the best way to teach, and I agree hostility isn't going to work. But as far as your question, that is my answer.

I have children. I raise them without religion, but we also teach them about religion and let them know it will be okay with us if they decide they believe in god or gods, so long as they're kind and compassionate about it. I feel comfortable rejecting religions that espouse cruelty; cruelty is not justified because of a belief in a god.

Anonymous wrote:
You sound nothing like my older kid. He says he is agnostic. He does not pray. He loves youth group but hates going to service. All of which is fine with me; I've given him the foundation and now it is up to him whether or not to do anything with it.

He is interested in spirituality and religion as academic matters, e.g. comparative religion and the role religion and religious beliefs play in politics.

So no, nothing like you.

Perhaps not. But that questing and searching feels very familiar to me and it's a stage I went through. In any case, all I'm saying is that it's possible that your son may walk away from religion entirely when he's older; his interest at this point does not necessarily translate to belief as an adult. It may, of course. I'm just saying that it may not, also.

My parents never rejected me, when, as an adult, I finally told them (years later!) that I didn't believe in god. I wish I could have told them earlier and I wish I'd understood that there was such a thing as atheism as a child rather than as an adult. But I feel in many ways I had a much easier path out of religion than a lot of people raised with religion, because I wasn't rejected by my parents.

Anonymous wrote:I am 10:01 and 10:07 and see both posters as indoctrinating their children, though one is much more mild than the other.

In fact, one is so mild that it almost doesn't seem like indoctrination, except for this one line: "Showing your kids that faith, and Gods love are all you really need in this world."

Your kids may find, as many good people have, that having a particular religious faith and believing in a God who provides love are totally unneccesary to their well-being.

Yes, but there is nothing wrong with telling your children, "this is a guiding principle in our family." They may grow up and away from these principles but the parents aren't misguided for creating a family around deeply held beliefs.