Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only sensible person in the thread says....

Anonymous wrote:As a doula, I've had women literally sobbing in my arms because they allowed their sons to be circumcised (against their better judgement). I think there is quite a difference between a mom who "would rather not but is okay with doing it" and the mom who truly does not want it done, but agrees to, only to try to keep peace in the house. A close friend of mine is SO bitter and resentful and it has nearly caused a divorce for them; she cannot forgive her husband or herself, and her son is five. In her case, the healing process was difficult and her son needed revision surgeries, which is rare but definitely fueled her anger.

The only path that does not force spouses to choose between two opposing viewpoints is to agree to let the boy decide for himself. Accept that you and your husband have dramatically different beliefs and allow each one to share that perspective as the boy matures, and encourage him to make a decision for himself when he reaches adulthood.

I realize there is a lot talk about how much easier it is to do as a baby, but that is not actually medically true. In reality, an adult (or even older child) circumcision is easier because 1. the boy/man receives general anesthesia during the procedure and can fully self-medicate as needed afterwards; and 2. in an adult, because the penis is fully grown and the foreskin is already retractable, there is no "guessing" as to the correct amount to be removed, thus reducing complications such as tight erections or skin bridges. It also removes the need to forcibly separate the foreskin from the penis, which in an infant circumcision can sometimes cause scarring or other damage such as metal stenosis. Yes, a grown man does have to face the psychological and cultural drama of (potentially) having penile surgery, but at least he can be fully informed, get proper pain relief, and make the decision for himself. Perhaps your husband would be willing to approach the matter in this way?

Um, anyone who thinks that a procedure requiring general anesthesia is "medically" easier than one that doesn't is not sensible. They're dangerously uninformed. There are plenty of arguments against circumcision, sure, but that's not one of them.

It's amazing how otherwise intelligent people can so easily accept that a surgery which requires general anesthesia for an adult, magically "doesn't hurt that much" for a baby. Since, as you correctly point out, general anesthesia brings certain (albeit quite rare) medical risks, wouldn't the safest thing by far be to just give an adult the same simple numbing cream we give babies? If it works for the pain, it works for the pain! (yes, I'm being sarcastic here.)

At any rate, aside from the potential risk of the anesthesia, the surgery itself is easier in an adult for the reasons I stated. There is far less of a chance of an accident of the glans, far less of a chance of taking off too much or too little of the skin, and no damage due to the forced separation of foreskin (as an adult it is already retractable). Additionally, an adult can properly medicate afterwards as well as provide feedback regarding any developing infection. Last but not least, an adult would already know if they have a blood clotting disorder. Unfortunately for some babies, their circumcision is the first time they've been cut, and at one or two days old, even loosing an ounce of blood equals a life-threatening hemorrhage. Babies can and do die every year in our country as a result of their non-medically indicated circumcision. But hey, what's a little death-risk in order to make sure his penis looks pretty?!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only sensible person in the thread says....

Anonymous wrote:As a doula, I've had women literally sobbing in my arms because they allowed their sons to be circumcised (against their better judgement). I think there is quite a difference between a mom who "would rather not but is okay with doing it" and the mom who truly does not want it done, but agrees to, only to try to keep peace in the house. A close friend of mine is SO bitter and resentful and it has nearly caused a divorce for them; she cannot forgive her husband or herself, and her son is five. In her case, the healing process was difficult and her son needed revision surgeries, which is rare but definitely fueled her anger.

The only path that does not force spouses to choose between two opposing viewpoints is to agree to let the boy decide for himself. Accept that you and your husband have dramatically different beliefs and allow each one to share that perspective as the boy matures, and encourage him to make a decision for himself when he reaches adulthood.

I realize there is a lot talk about how much easier it is to do as a baby, but that is not actually medically true. In reality, an adult (or even older child) circumcision is easier because 1. the boy/man receives general anesthesia during the procedure and can fully self-medicate as needed afterwards; and 2. in an adult, because the penis is fully grown and the foreskin is already retractable, there is no "guessing" as to the correct amount to be removed, thus reducing complications such as tight erections or skin bridges. It also removes the need to forcibly separate the foreskin from the penis, which in an infant circumcision can sometimes cause scarring or other damage such as metal stenosis. Yes, a grown man does have to face the psychological and cultural drama of (potentially) having penile surgery, but at least he can be fully informed, get proper pain relief, and make the decision for himself. Perhaps your husband would be willing to approach the matter in this way?

Um, anyone who thinks that a procedure requiring general anesthesia is "medically" easier than one that doesn't is not sensible. They're dangerously uninformed. There are plenty of arguments against circumcision, sure, but that's not one of them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If rates of circumcision among infant boys continue to drop in the U.S., it could lead to billions of dollars in added health care costs and increases in sexually transmitted infections among men, according to a recent study by Johns Hopkins researchers.

Studies link circumcision with numerous health benefits: the procedure is associated with lower risks of urinary tract infections in babies and young boys, and reductions in men’s risk of contracting HIV, genital herpes and human papillomavirus (HPV); it may also help reduce the odds of penile and prostate cancers. By reducing the burden of sexually transmitted infections among men, it may also help keep more women infection-free as well.

If circumcision rates were to drop from the current 55% to 10%, urinary tract infections in baby boys may rise a whopping 212%, and in men, HIV infections could increase by 12%, HPV infections by 29% and herpes simplex virus type 2 by 20%. In women, dropping rates of male circumcision could increase cases of bacterial vaginosis by 18% and low-risk HPV by 13%.

Read more: If Circumcision Rates Keep Falling, Health Costs and Infections Will Spike | TIME.com http://healthland.time.com/2012/08/21/if-circumcision-rates-keep-falling-health-costs-and-infections-will-spike/#ixzz2u1ZPmBbm

Fascinating, considering that the vast majority of the US adult male population already IS circumcised, yet we have one of the highest rates of HIV and other STDs in the developed world. Where oh where has this supposed protective benefit of circumcision gotten us?

Compared to Europe, which is mostly intact, and has much lower rates of STDs and HIV.

These studies are extremely biased and used only to support the practice of more circumcision.

Anonymous wrote:The only sensible person in the thread says....

Anonymous wrote:As a doula, I've had women literally sobbing in my arms because they allowed their sons to be circumcised (against their better judgement). I think there is quite a difference between a mom who "would rather not but is okay with doing it" and the mom who truly does not want it done, but agrees to, only to try to keep peace in the house. A close friend of mine is SO bitter and resentful and it has nearly caused a divorce for them; she cannot forgive her husband or herself, and her son is five. In her case, the healing process was difficult and her son needed revision surgeries, which is rare but definitely fueled her anger.

The only path that does not force spouses to choose between two opposing viewpoints is to agree to let the boy decide for himself. Accept that you and your husband have dramatically different beliefs and allow each one to share that perspective as the boy matures, and encourage him to make a decision for himself when he reaches adulthood.

I realize there is a lot talk about how much easier it is to do as a baby, but that is not actually medically true. In reality, an adult (or even older child) circumcision is easier because 1. the boy/man receives general anesthesia during the procedure and can fully self-medicate as needed afterwards; and 2. in an adult, because the penis is fully grown and the foreskin is already retractable, there is no "guessing" as to the correct amount to be removed, thus reducing complications such as tight erections or skin bridges. It also removes the need to forcibly separate the foreskin from the penis, which in an infant circumcision can sometimes cause scarring or other damage such as metal stenosis. Yes, a grown man does have to face the psychological and cultural drama of (potentially) having penile surgery, but at least he can be fully informed, get proper pain relief, and make the decision for himself. Perhaps your husband would be willing to approach the matter in this way?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We're Jewish and it was VERY important to DH we do it to DS. I insisted it be done in the hospital before we were discharged, that he not be strapped down, that he be given topical anesthetic. I also decided to be present for it, so down the road when DS asked how I could do that to him, I could explain what I saw or something (not quite exactly sure what I was thinking, but felt it was important I be willing to be there).

I was so convinced he would scream and carry on for hours. It turned out that the mohel was well aware of my worries (Thanks, DH!) and he promised to go quickly, and suggested I nurse immediately afterwards. He made sure to get me a comfortable chair, and a blanket, etc. Once he started, he moved quickly. The truth is, DS cried for less than 30 seconds. Possibly less than 20, but I'll round up.

A circumcision on any but the eighth day is not in accord with halacha. (An Israeli court would demand that it be done again, at least tokenisticaly.)
Topical anaesthetic is not very effective, especially when they don't wait long enough for it to take effect. He stops crying so quickly because he goes into shock. (Nelson Mandela compared the sensation with molten lead in his veins.)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Didn't let them chop off his penis and don't regret it! We were asked about it 5 times- was going to throw the 6th person out of the room.

You're not very smart are you? Chop off his penis? How did you even get pregnant? Idiot.

+1. A circumcision cuts off a piece of skin. The penis is left intact.

Anonymous wrote:We're Jewish and it was VERY important to DH we do it to DS. I insisted it be done in the hospital before we were discharged, that he not be strapped down, that he be given topical anesthetic. I also decided to be present for it, so down the road when DS asked how I could do that to him, I could explain what I saw or something (not quite exactly sure what I was thinking, but felt it was important I be willing to be there).

I was so convinced he would scream and carry on for hours. It turned out that the mohel was well aware of my worries (Thanks, DH!) and he promised to go quickly, and suggested I nurse immediately afterwards. He made sure to get me a comfortable chair, and a blanket, etc. Once he started, he moved quickly. The truth is, DS cried for less than 30 seconds. Possibly less than 20, but I'll round up.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Didn't let them chop off his penis and don't regret it! We were asked about it 5 times- was going to throw the 6th person out of the room.

You're not very smart are you? Chop off his penis? How did you even get pregnant? Idiot.

+1. A circumcision cuts off a piece of skin. The penis is left intact.

Anonymous wrote:If rates of circumcision among infant boys continue to drop in the U.S., it could lead to billions of dollars in added health care costs and increases in sexually transmitted infections among men, according to a recent study by Johns Hopkins researchers.

Studies link circumcision with numerous health benefits: the procedure is associated with lower risks of urinary tract infections in babies and young boys, and reductions in men’s risk of contracting HIV, genital herpes and human papillomavirus (HPV); it may also help reduce the odds of penile and prostate cancers. By reducing the burden of sexually transmitted infections among men, it may also help keep more women infection-free as well.

If circumcision rates were to drop from the current 55% to 10%, urinary tract infections in baby boys may rise a whopping 212%, and in men, HIV infections could increase by 12%, HPV infections by 29% and herpes simplex virus type 2 by 20%. In women, dropping rates of male circumcision could increase cases of bacterial vaginosis by 18% and low-risk HPV by 13%.

Read more: If Circumcision Rates Keep Falling, Health Costs and Infections Will Spike | TIME.com http://healthland.time.com/2012/08/21/if-circumcision-rates-keep-falling-health-costs-and-infections-will-spike/#ixzz2u1ZPmBbm

Anonymous wrote:The only sensible person in the thread says....

Anonymous wrote:As a doula, I've had women literally sobbing in my arms because they allowed their sons to be circumcised (against their better judgement). I think there is quite a difference between a mom who "would rather not but is okay with doing it" and the mom who truly does not want it done, but agrees to, only to try to keep peace in the house. A close friend of mine is SO bitter and resentful and it has nearly caused a divorce for them; she cannot forgive her husband or herself, and her son is five. In her case, the healing process was difficult and her son needed revision surgeries, which is rare but definitely fueled her anger.

The only path that does not force spouses to choose between two opposing viewpoints is to agree to let the boy decide for himself. Accept that you and your husband have dramatically different beliefs and allow each one to share that perspective as the boy matures, and encourage him to make a decision for himself when he reaches adulthood.

I realize there is a lot talk about how much easier it is to do as a baby, but that is not actually medically true. In reality, an adult (or even older child) circumcision is easier because 1. the boy/man receives general anesthesia during the procedure and can fully self-medicate as needed afterwards; and 2. in an adult, because the penis is fully grown and the foreskin is already retractable, there is no "guessing" as to the correct amount to be removed, thus reducing complications such as tight erections or skin bridges. It also removes the need to forcibly separate the foreskin from the penis, which in an infant circumcision can sometimes cause scarring or other damage such as metal stenosis. Yes, a grown man does have to face the psychological and cultural drama of (potentially) having penile surgery, but at least he can be fully informed, get proper pain relief, and make the decision for himself. Perhaps your husband would be willing to approach the matter in this way?

Anonymous wrote:As a doula, I've had women literally sobbing in my arms because they allowed their sons to be circumcised (against their better judgement). I think there is quite a difference between a mom who "would rather not but is okay with doing it" and the mom who truly does not want it done, but agrees to, only to try to keep peace in the house. A close friend of mine is SO bitter and resentful and it has nearly caused a divorce for them; she cannot forgive her husband or herself, and her son is five. In her case, the healing process was difficult and her son needed revision surgeries, which is rare but definitely fueled her anger.

The only path that does not force spouses to choose between two opposing viewpoints is to agree to let the boy decide for himself. Accept that you and your husband have dramatically different beliefs and allow each one to share that perspective as the boy matures, and encourage him to make a decision for himself when he reaches adulthood.

I realize there is a lot talk about how much easier it is to do as a baby, but that is not actually medically true. In reality, an adult (or even older child) circumcision is easier because 1. the boy/man receives general anesthesia during the procedure and can fully self-medicate as needed afterwards; and 2. in an adult, because the penis is fully grown and the foreskin is already retractable, there is no "guessing" as to the correct amount to be removed, thus reducing complications such as tight erections or skin bridges. It also removes the need to forcibly separate the foreskin from the penis, which in an infant circumcision can sometimes cause scarring or other damage such as metal stenosis. Yes, a grown man does have to face the psychological and cultural drama of (potentially) having penile surgery, but at least he can be fully informed, get proper pain relief, and make the decision for himself. Perhaps your husband would be willing to approach the matter in this way?