^^^^^^^^^

A decent psychologist would also try to educate you without making you feel ignorant. Parasuicidal behavior is self-harm that does not result in death, otherwise known as a suicidal gesture. Self-harm can take the form of cutting, burning, banging one's head or wrist, or ingesting poison. Parasuicidal behavior is a very strong predictor of a future suicide.

Do you really think someone would cut themselves repeatedly, or burn themselves, or ingest bleach to try to "manipulate" someone? That's a pretty painful way to go about it.

I am amazed at the amount of hatred that is expressed towards the suicidal on this thread. I have never seen such ignorance of lack of education anywhere else on this board. You sound like a bunch of Christ-fearing hicks.

Anonymous wrote:Suicidal behaviors are used so often for attention-getting or other manipulative purposes that psychologists have a term of art ("parasuicidal")to differentiate manipulative suicidal behavior from true suicidal behavior.

A decent psychologist will not refer to people as attention seeking or manipulative. They look to understand why the person is trying to obtain attention or feel the need to control a situation. Someone who threatens suicide (when they aren't suicidal) as a way to obtain a measure of control or to get their needs for attention met it someone who is either not well at all or severely deprived of the childhood learning, nurturing environment and basic skills necessary to function as a competent adult

Additionally parasuicidal gestures are not about manipulative suicidal behaviors. There are many different reasons for suicidal gestures where the intended outcome isn't death. Parasuicide involves actually overdosing on meds/substance, cutting arms etc.. Parasuicide is related to socioeconomic factors, supports, access to resources and many other factors.

Suicidal behaviors are used so often for attention-getting or other manipulative purposes that psychologists have a term of art ("parasuicidal")to differentiate manipulative suicidal behavior from true suicidal behavior.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is it for me, too. But to answer your question: Were I ever in so much pain that I felt I needed to take my life, I would hope that my family would know me enough to understand that, in order to do that, I must have been in unimaginable pain. I would understand their missing me, wishing it hadn't happened, or that it could have been prevented. But I would not understand their being angry.

That being said, I do know how traumatizing it is for young children when a parent commits suicide. They are deprived of a parent, and they do tend to think that suicide is OK, as their parent did. I would hope that a parent would think of that before committing suicide, but that assumes that someone truly suicidal is capable of something that they may not, in that moment, be capable of.

Finally, I disagree with your curt dismissal of what I had to say. Just as I am not the expert here, neither are you (no matter what experience you may have in the area of domestic violence). You are free to disagree, but not to dismiss my ideas as outdated. It's really quite simple: If you are a person who, (as one of our posters does) believes that suicidal people are selfish and nasty, leave them alone. There is no law, moral or ethic requiring anything of you. If you believe you are being manipulated by someone who likes to, as you described "play suicide", again, leave them alone. Because even if such a person happened to be wrong, they cannot help the person. They can only do damage. It's really very simple: If you don't like or feel compassion for people who seem suicidal or make suicidal gestures (which you call "threats") then, by all means, leave them alone. Give them room to look for someone else who may be able and willing to reach them.

You are truly unwell. Seriously. Only really emotionally stunted people think like this.

You are truly unwell. Seriously. Only really narrow-minded people who lack empathy call someone pathological simply because they disagree with their point of view on one issue.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is it for me, too. But to answer your question: Were I ever in so much pain that I felt I needed to take my life, I would hope that my family would know me enough to understand that, in order to do that, I must have been in unimaginable pain. I would understand their missing me, wishing it hadn't happened, or that it could have been prevented. But I would not understand their being angry.

That being said, I do know how traumatizing it is for young children when a parent commits suicide. They are deprived of a parent, and they do tend to think that suicide is OK, as their parent did. I would hope that a parent would think of that before committing suicide, but that assumes that someone truly suicidal is capable of something that they may not, in that moment, be capable of.

Finally, I disagree with your curt dismissal of what I had to say. Just as I am not the expert here, neither are you (no matter what experience you may have in the area of domestic violence). You are free to disagree, but not to dismiss my ideas as outdated. It's really quite simple: If you are a person who, (as one of our posters does) believes that suicidal people are selfish and nasty, leave them alone. There is no law, moral or ethic requiring anything of you. If you believe you are being manipulated by someone who likes to, as you described "play suicide", again, leave them alone. Because even if such a person happened to be wrong, they cannot help the person. They can only do damage. It's really very simple: If you don't like or feel compassion for people who seem suicidal or make suicidal gestures (which you call "threats") then, by all means, leave them alone. Give them room to look for someone else who may be able and willing to reach them.

You are truly unwell. Seriously. Only really emotionally stunted people think like this.

I disagree. And I'm a therapist and deal with suicidal people often.

With whom do you disagree?

Anonymous wrote:OP here - wow, amazing how this site has been hijacked. The threats have been implicit, not explicit, so my friend cannot have her husband involuntarily committed. She's looked into it. He refuses to get treatment. Does she give him an ultimatum, and if he still refuses, does she leave? That's the question. The current situation is very unhealthy for her, her kids, and of course her husband, so something has to change.

Honestly, it's not such a simple question. She needs to see an attorney first, describe the facts, understand what her chances are for different kinds of custody and child support and who would have to move out (her or him). Once she knows that she will better understand the leverage that she has to "give an ultimatum". The thing about ultimatums is that one has to be prepared to carry them out, otherwise giving an ultimatum and not following thru only makes the situation worse.

IME, with 3 kids, I was willing to give my mentally ill DH an "ultimatum" and some time to get help. Getting help is a process that doesn't happen overnight. Although I didn't have a fixed deadline, I knew that I personally couldn't live in the situation as it was long term, and that the situation was very unhealthy for the long term for my kids. I saw my "deadline" as a year or two at most. We ended up staying together about 2 1/2 years after the precipitating incident which really made it clear that my DH was ill and behaving in a way that put us in danger. During that time I facilitated various kinds of help -- meds, psychiatrist, AA, etc. Unfortunately, DH started some but did not follow thru or maintain treatment, and I finally had to ask him to leave the house. What was interesting was how shocked he appeared to be that it was finally over, even though I had made the terms of our continued relationship very clear for quite some time.

For your friend, it is best to think for herself about how she will or won't live. It is not possible to "force" someone into treatment. It is possible to give ultimatums like "see the psychiatrist and stay on any prescribed meds and do therapy once a week". But, often what happens is that the loved one only does some things but not others, or does some things for a short period and then stops. I thought really hard about what was my minimum bottom line in a relationship -- no drugs, no alcohol, no infidelity, no abuse (emotional or physical), see the psychiatrist and therapist regularly, stay on/use meds as prescribed. I didn't think that was unreasonable, but unfortunately it wasn't a regime DH could maintain. I was not wiling to live in an environment or put my kids in an environment that violated the above.

Also, the "after" the ultimatum isn't so black and white. Even when separated parents have to learn to deal with each other on custody/child issues. Plus, with a mentally ill ex, it's virtually assured that he/she will continue to call on the well spouse for various forms of support. I can honestly say that all of us are better off split than we were together (kids and each parent).

bump.

With whom do you disagree?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is it for me, too. But to answer your question: Were I ever in so much pain that I felt I needed to take my life, I would hope that my family would know me enough to understand that, in order to do that, I must have been in unimaginable pain. I would understand their missing me, wishing it hadn't happened, or that it could have been prevented. But I would not understand their being angry.

That being said, I do know how traumatizing it is for young children when a parent commits suicide. They are deprived of a parent, and they do tend to think that suicide is OK, as their parent did. I would hope that a parent would think of that before committing suicide, but that assumes that someone truly suicidal is capable of something that they may not, in that moment, be capable of.

Finally, I disagree with your curt dismissal of what I had to say. Just as I am not the expert here, neither are you (no matter what experience you may have in the area of domestic violence). You are free to disagree, but not to dismiss my ideas as outdated. It's really quite simple: If you are a person who, (as one of our posters does) believes that suicidal people are selfish and nasty, leave them alone. There is no law, moral or ethic requiring anything of you. If you believe you are being manipulated by someone who likes to, as you described "play suicide", again, leave them alone. Because even if such a person happened to be wrong, they cannot help the person. They can only do damage. It's really very simple: If you don't like or feel compassion for people who seem suicidal or make suicidal gestures (which you call "threats") then, by all means, leave them alone. Give them room to look for someone else who may be able and willing to reach them.

You are truly unwell. Seriously. Only really emotionally stunted people think like this.

I disagree. And I'm a therapist and deal with suicidal people often.

Anonymous wrote:This is it for me, too. But to answer your question: Were I ever in so much pain that I felt I needed to take my life, I would hope that my family would know me enough to understand that, in order to do that, I must have been in unimaginable pain. I would understand their missing me, wishing it hadn't happened, or that it could have been prevented. But I would not understand their being angry.

That being said, I do know how traumatizing it is for young children when a parent commits suicide. They are deprived of a parent, and they do tend to think that suicide is OK, as their parent did. I would hope that a parent would think of that before committing suicide, but that assumes that someone truly suicidal is capable of something that they may not, in that moment, be capable of.

Finally, I disagree with your curt dismissal of what I had to say. Just as I am not the expert here, neither are you (no matter what experience you may have in the area of domestic violence). You are free to disagree, but not to dismiss my ideas as outdated. It's really quite simple: If you are a person who, (as one of our posters does) believes that suicidal people are selfish and nasty, leave them alone. There is no law, moral or ethic requiring anything of you. If you believe you are being manipulated by someone who likes to, as you described "play suicide", again, leave them alone. Because even if such a person happened to be wrong, they cannot help the person. They can only do damage. It's really very simple: If you don't like or feel compassion for people who seem suicidal or make suicidal gestures (which you call "threats") then, by all means, leave them alone. Give them room to look for someone else who may be able and willing to reach them.

You are truly unwell. Seriously. Only really emotionally stunted people think like this.

Anonymous wrote:

You'll have to make allowances for me. No I don't work in the domestic violence field. I am not a chef, either. And, while I have been to the dark place many times, it has never occurred to me to "pretend" suicide. I cannot get my mind around the concept. If I wanted to manipulate some, or get revenge on someone, I could think of a variety of things I might do. "Playing" suicide is not one of them.

And, while I am not directing this at you specifically, the amount of disdain, contempt and pure hatred expressed on this thread towards those who were in so much pain that they killed themselves is really shocking to me. If I feel suicidal again, I guess I won't talk to anyone about it. Lest they think I am trying to threaten them or manipulate them or otherwise be a nasty human being with no love for anyone but myself. I certainly wouldn't want to have to deal with those feelings in addition to everything else.

This has been a real education.

Try counting the number of times you use "I" in this. You really are personalizing this way too much. It isn't about you.

Anonymous wrote:
Actually, suicide is often used as a punishment by abusers. They get off on making the thought that their spouse will suffer and be judged harshly as a result of their suicide. Sylvia Plath was punishing her husband with her death.

That story is apocryphal, but even if it weren't, is Sylvia Plath really who you are going to use as an example of someone who wasn't suffering from mental illness?

This is it for me, too. But to answer your question: Were I ever in so much pain that I felt I needed to take my life, I would hope that my family would know me enough to understand that, in order to do that, I must have been in unimaginable pain. I would understand their missing me, wishing it hadn't happened, or that it could have been prevented. But I would not understand their being angry.

That being said, I do know how traumatizing it is for young children when a parent commits suicide. They are deprived of a parent, and they do tend to think that suicide is OK, as their parent did. I would hope that a parent would think of that before committing suicide, but that assumes that someone truly suicidal is capable of something that they may not, in that moment, be capable of.

Finally, I disagree with your curt dismissal of what I had to say. Just as I am not the expert here, neither are you (no matter what experience you may have in the area of domestic violence). You are free to disagree, but not to dismiss my ideas as outdated. It's really quite simple: If you are a person who, (as one of our posters does) believes that suicidal people are selfish and nasty, leave them alone. There is no law, moral or ethic requiring anything of you. If you believe you are being manipulated by someone who likes to, as you described "play suicide", again, leave them alone. Because even if such a person happened to be wrong, they cannot help the person. They can only do damage. It's really very simple: If you don't like or feel compassion for people who seem suicidal or make suicidal gestures (which you call "threats") then, by all means, leave them alone. Give them room to look for someone else who may be able and willing to reach them.

Anonymous wrote:I understand and appreciate what you are saying, though I think you either have not read or are discounting posters who actually said that people who actually commit suicide are selfish and nasty, which is a point of view I cannot accept.

However, what you've said only confirms the conclusion I came to earlier: Someone who feels confronted by a manipulative suicide threat should just leave. It's better for the person, because they do not want to be bothered. And it's better for the one making the "threats" too. Because if they are just being manipulative and making threats, they do not deserve attention. On the other hand, if they are genuinely suicidal, someone who just feels burdened by someone they view as manipulative is not going to be able to help the person; they will only make it worse.

Either way, that is my conclusion. If you feel you are being made a victim of a "suicide threat" just leave. Walk away. Leave the person alone. But don't do anything to make it worse.

This is it for me but I'm going to ask you one question (not to be answered here obviously), and I ask it from the point of view of you now, not as you were during your worst time when you felt suicidal, but from today, during a time that I hope is one of health and happiness. Can you look at every one of your loved ones and say that your death and the damage it might have caused them doesn't concern you? That it doesn't matter? That your sadness and pain was the only perspective that mattered? I'm guessing the answer is no.

When people respond to suicide as a selfish act, that's what they're tapping into, and they have the right to that perspective just like you had the right to your pain. You will probably never know the perspective of someone as collateral damage, as someone left behind. They aren't attacking you, they are expressing THEIR pain. I hope you finally get that.

And please, "just leave" is the response from the 1970s. Seriously, we've come a long in the domestic violence community. Don't forget, you're not a chef.

I understand and appreciate what you are saying, though I think you either have not read or are discounting posters who actually said that people who actually commit suicide are selfish and nasty, which is a point of view I cannot accept.

However, what you've said only confirms the conclusion I came to earlier: Someone who feels confronted by a manipulative suicide threat should just leave. It's better for the person, because they do not want to be bothered. And it's better for the one making the "threats" too. Because if they are just being manipulative and making threats, they do not deserve attention. On the other hand, if they are genuinely suicidal, someone who just feels burdened by someone they view as manipulative is not going to be able to help the person; they will only make it worse.

Either way, that is my conclusion. If you feel you are being made a victim of a "suicide threat" just leave. Walk away. Leave the person alone. But don't do anything to make it worse.