Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just because your guests/ILs say grace before they eat, doesn't mean you have to. You can keep your head up and remain silent = totally respectful and accommodating but also role models to your children that *you* don't say grace and they don't have to either. I don't see how you can host some one and not let them say grace - they're not allowed to eat otherwise. What kind of hospitality would that role model?

What religion prohibits its adherents from eating if they don't first pray out loud and obtrusively? I don't know of any religion that won't accept silent internal prayer as a substitute. What am I missing?

I hadn't read the full 6 pages where OP clarified that it's the out loud part she objects to. I get that to some extent. If I felt uncomfortable, I might clasp my hands or sit on them before grace started so they couldn't be grabbed, but I can't imagine telling a guest "please don't pray out loud." What kind of hospitality is that? I mean, what if MIL wants to say prayers before bed? I am going to tell her she can only do that in the bathroom so that my kid doesn't witness it?

Anonymous wrote:All of you defending the MIL in this scenario are basically saying that the wants of religious people come before the wants of non-religious people, even in the non-religious person's own home.

OP might not look all that great standing up for herself because it seems like this preferential treatment of religion is so common. MIL would do well to respect the traditions of the house she's in, even if they don't match up with hers, even if the traditions are non-religious. That's just common courtesy.

I was under the impression that agnosticism gets deference - when there's religious diversity, all the religious people are expected to keep it to themselves, but it's not that way everywhere in the world. In India, where my ILs are from, the approach is that we all celebrate everything and the guest is god-like. So if we, a Catholic-Baha'i couple, were hosting Hindus in our home, we would first let the Hindus say what they have to say before the meal, if anything, then my husband would say his Catholic grace, and I, the Baha'i without an grace-like customs, would just politely observe and then we'd all eat. I think it's really inhospitable to ask a guest to not say their grace out loud. I mean, if we were to host a Muslim friend, would I say "you can only say your prayers if you do it over there, where no one can see"?

Anonymous wrote:Just because your guests/ILs say grace before they eat, doesn't mean you have to. You can keep your head up and remain silent = totally respectful and accommodating but also role models to your children that *you* don't say grace and they don't have to either. I don't see how you can host some one and not let them say grace - they're not allowed to eat otherwise. What kind of hospitality would that role model?

What religion prohibits its adherents from eating if they don't first pray out loud and obtrusively? I don't know of any religion that won't accept silent internal prayer as a substitute. What am I missing?

OP, what if you nipped this in the bud by announcing a moment of silence before dinner for people to pray or reflect on how lucky they are, as they see fit? Bonus points if DH lets MIL know what's coming in advance.

If MIL still throws down after that, then she's really drawing a line in the sand, and it becomes how much it means to you: how far are you willing to go? Because there is no magic set of words that will make her understand how inappropriate she is behaving if she doesn't want to see it.

Just because your guests/ILs say grace before they eat, doesn't mean you have to. You can keep your head up and remain silent = totally respectful and accommodating but also role models to your children that *you* don't say grace and they don't have to either. I don't see how you can host some one and not let them say grace - they're not allowed to eat otherwise. What kind of hospitality would that role model?

Wow. No wonder so many of you hate your mils. It wouldn't matter who your mother in law is if you are this immature, you'd find a reason to hate her.

Your DH should speak up to his mother about this. People should be respectful when they are a guest.

For example, my daughter just asked me why "this day is 'Good Friday'" on her calendar. You can't get away from this Christian dogma. You think I'm going to tell my 6 year old that Jesus was beaten and nailed to a cross to die? Very violent and disturbing, like to give her nightmares. Do not want her exposed to this. Keep all of it out of my home.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can't "rope" other people into praying. They can just sit there quietly for 30 seconds. OP just resents her MIL.

Except it sounds like her MIL isn't asking everyone to just sit there quietly. By expecting OP and her family to hold hands and bow their heads while MIL or FIL says grace out loud is asking for active participation.

I posted at 10:28 and am a practicing Catholic. At our house we say grace before meals, and appreciate that our guests quietly sit, or if they share our faith, join in. In someone else's home, I might quietly bow my own head and say a 5-second thank you, but wouldn't expect everyone to participate either passively or actively.

I understand that distinction, but I don't see how that's important enough for OP to turn this into a battle or even bring it up with her MIL. The cost is not worth the relative annoyance. To me this is the equivalent of paying $200 for a candy bar. Sometimes it's ok if you don't get your way, even in your own house. That's another good lesson for her dc to see, as well.

Not the PP you're responding to but I agree with her. Just because you don't see the distinction as important doesn't mean everyone does. I think it's a very important distinction. When I'm in my mother's house, I show respect to her by holding hands when they pray before a meal but I don't participate in saying the prayer. When it's my house, my mother bows her head and prays silently for a few moments before eating. When we have Thanksgiving at our house, we do as PP suggested and express our appreciation that our guests could share the meal with us and then start the meal. Everyone's needs are met and my kids see how we handle different customs without anyone getting offended or feeling imposed upon.

What is the difference between bowing your head in your own house vs. someone else's house? It's OP's choice. If she doesn't want to bow her head and hold hands for 30 seconds to avoid a battle with her MIL, that's fine. But she's going to come out of it looking petty and pathetic. I don't think this is a principle thing, I think she just dislikes her MIL and doesn't want her to get her way.

The big difference between the two is that I respect the traditions of the home in which I am a guest and I expect my mother to respect my traditions. I’ll join hands because it’s part of her custom that I can participate in but I won’t bow my head and I won’t participate in her prayer.

I’ve seen anyone other than my mother try to impose their religious rituals in places where they are a guest. If it’s not okay to do in the home of someone who’s not a family member (or in a restaurant), then why is it okay to try and impose it on a family member who doesn’t subscribe to those rituals? This sounds a lot like ‘you wouldn’t tolerate it in a friend but you have to for family’. I don’t believe in that either. I also don’t respect someone just because they’re old. It doesn’t matter what age someone is, they should be treated civilly and politely but that doesn’t extend to allowing them to impose their religious rituals on me in my home.

I’m sure some will never understand why this is a big deal to some of us that has nothing to do with power. But it should be enough for you to know that we find it highly offensive. Perhaps it might help for you to brush up on your history. There’s an excellent recent biography of Roger Williams that may help you understand http://www.amazon.com/Roger-Williams-Creation-American-Soul/dp/0670023051 .

NP here. Haven't really read the responses to date but wanted to post my own experience.

My MIL is pretty religious, my DH and I are not. However, when she comes to our house for a celebration we always say grace. I just stare at the sky and don't say Amen but I don't disallow it. If it gives her comfort and peace, I'm OK with that (kids are too young to know the difference at this point).

As an aside, our DD turned three this Spring and my MIL likes to sing in addition to Happy Birthday "god loves you always"

Well, at DD's bday I initiated the God loves you refrain which seemed to surprise my MIL but hey, it's OK. Like I said, kids are young and I'm not necessarily anti-religious and I knew it would make her happy.

We'll see how how it goes when they get older. ; )

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess I don't see why it's a problem to say grace before a meal. It's not an exclusively Catholic thing. Many religions or even some non-religious folks give thanks to some higher power for the gift of the food. Even if you are just thanking the Earth for its bounty. So I do not see grace before a meal as overtly prosthelytizing.

I agree.

I assume your inlaws are not eating every meal at your house. At the most, maybe once a week?

OP, this is likely an important family tradition for your in laws. It is what, 1 minute? There are far more demanding and annoying family traditions that in laws provide. Just be polite and let her do this the handful of times she eats at your house. What harm is that?

Plus, on the scale of graces, the Catholic grace is one of the most innocuous, right behind "God is great, God is good, thank you God, for this food". I would assume they are doing the standard 30 second "Bless us o Lord and these thy gifts that we are about to receive, by thy bounty through Christ our Lord, Amen."

That 30 seconds is really not worth a fight with your mil.

+1 on all accounts. I don't see this as a big deal at all and my religious beliefs and my parents align perfectly with the OP's. it is really not worth hurting my parents over or offending their beliefs while a guest in my house. Similarly, if a friend of another orthodox religion was invited to my house I would take no offense to starting my meal with a prayer. I respect their beliefs as a guest at my table.

This.

They are guests in your home. They have particular religious beliefs. You don't have to participate, but it unbelievably rude to tell a guest not to pray the way they usually do. You should accommodate this. It's the polite thing to do.

I am an atheist. My husband had a Muslim classmate in his grad program. They studied here. He prayed in my house, often. We accommodated him, because he was a guest.

The difference is your husbands classmate wasn't pushing his practice on you and looking to convert you in the process. It's different with family, especially when the religious person can't stomach that there are nonreligious people who are comfortable with themselves.

As I said, I am an atheist. My ILs are really, really, REALLY Catholic. My kids know that and know that we, their parents, don't agree. They understand that Grandma and Grandpa believe what they believe and are unhappy because we don't believe. The kids know the whole story. Praying at my table or a cousin having a Catholic mass wedding or a baptism for a new baby or First Communion is okay. Grace is okay. Tolerating the ILs believes and behavior is okay with the kids because they know we love them, even if we think they are wrong about the God thing. They thought First Communion was pretty silly, but they love their cousins anyway.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess I don't see why it's a problem to say grace before a meal. It's not an exclusively Catholic thing. Many religions or even some non-religious folks give thanks to some higher power for the gift of the food. Even if you are just thanking the Earth for its bounty. So I do not see grace before a meal as overtly prosthelytizing.

I agree.

I assume your inlaws are not eating every meal at your house. At the most, maybe once a week?

OP, this is likely an important family tradition for your in laws. It is what, 1 minute? There are far more demanding and annoying family traditions that in laws provide. Just be polite and let her do this the handful of times she eats at your house. What harm is that?

Plus, on the scale of graces, the Catholic grace is one of the most innocuous, right behind "God is great, God is good, thank you God, for this food". I would assume they are doing the standard 30 second "Bless us o Lord and these thy gifts that we are about to receive, by thy bounty through Christ our Lord, Amen."

That 30 seconds is really not worth a fight with your mil.

+1 on all accounts. I don't see this as a big deal at all and my religious beliefs and my parents align perfectly with the OP's. it is really not worth hurting my parents over or offending their beliefs while a guest in my house. Similarly, if a friend of another orthodox religion was invited to my house I would take no offense to starting my meal with a prayer. I respect their beliefs as a guest at my table.

This.

They are guests in your home. They have particular religious beliefs. You don't have to participate, but it unbelievably rude to tell a guest not to pray the way they usually do. You should accommodate this. It's the polite thing to do.

I am an atheist. My husband had a Muslim classmate in his grad program. They studied here. He prayed in my house, often. We accommodated him, because he was a guest.

The difference is your husbands classmate wasn't pushing his practice on you and looking to convert you in the process. It's different with family, especially when the religious person can't stomach that there are nonreligious people who are comfortable with themselves.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess I don't see why it's a problem to say grace before a meal. It's not an exclusively Catholic thing. Many religions or even some non-religious folks give thanks to some higher power for the gift of the food. Even if you are just thanking the Earth for its bounty. So I do not see grace before a meal as overtly prosthelytizing.

It's annoying. We don't do it and I personally don't want my kids exposed to this.

Sometimes, adults have to deal with things that annoy them. And it's not violence, or porn, or whatever else you wouldn't want a small child to be exposed to. It's saying grace. If you can't explain to your kids that other people have different beliefs and that that's fine, then you have a big problem.

Not in my house I don't. It's saying grace to, in my belief, an imaginary friend. I don't want my kid believing in that and I don't want it in my house. End of story.

Are your kids not allowed to have any imaginary friends or play pretend? Of course it's your house. That's why you're expected to be gracious. If you want to be a petty drama queen, that's your prerogative. You're only going to demean yourself in the process.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess I don't see why it's a problem to say grace before a meal. It's not an exclusively Catholic thing. Many religions or even some non-religious folks give thanks to some higher power for the gift of the food. Even if you are just thanking the Earth for its bounty. So I do not see grace before a meal as overtly prosthelytizing.

It's annoying. We don't do it and I personally don't want my kids exposed to this.

Sometimes, adults have to deal with things that annoy them. And it's not violence, or porn, or whatever else you wouldn't want a small child to be exposed to. It's saying grace. If you can't explain to your kids that other people have different beliefs and that that's fine, then you have a big problem.

Not in my house I don't. It's saying grace to, in my belief, an imaginary friend. I don't want my kid believing in that and I don't want it in my house. End of story.

"annoying. We don't do it and I personally don't want my kids exposed"

? don't want your kids 'exposed' to saying grace? come on OP...let your mil say grace, don't decide to be offended by it. good grief, if that's your big mil problem you are very lucky. your reaction makes you sound like the unreasonable angry drama queen, sorry



"Honestly, I think you should take a deep breath and let it go. "

++


pick your battles. I think you're in for a long unhappy drama-filled life with your mil and family if you choose to get angry and upset and annoyed about your mil saying grace before a meal.