Agree with much of what you said PP, but it only takes one selfish person who didn't find family life all that rewarding to break a marriage. My divorce was driven by ex's mental health issues and poor parenting. Divorce hasn't changed that, just pushed me and the kids close to the poverty level. My request that he do something about his issues (which were causing the kids to have anxiety and sadness due to his disconnection) led him to have an affair and then move in with a "new" family. My kids haven't had any good options since whatever his problems are kicked off in his early 30's.

I think the cases where people divorce just because of their adult relationship but otherwise are healthy, stable, mature adults is the minority. Most divorced families I know do not have 2 super involved parents or enough money, and often there are mental health issues (depression, ADHD, personality disorders, problems with intimacy, addiciton) in one spouse. Obviously 2 involved stable parents would be the next best choice. But when one parent is unstable and unpredictable and self absorbed the ideal is for that person to get effective treatment.

My ex has brought questionable people in and out of the kids' lives, none of whom has shown a genuine interest in them. The ideal of 2 loving blended families is nice, but not the reality for many kids from divorced homes.

Divorce has serious consequences for moms and kids that are way less trivial than tennis and volunteering. The financial and social consquences tend to hit them the hardest. Men tend to do BETTER economically after a divorce. The divorce rate for second marriages is very high, higher still for blended families. That a few have had a different experience trivializes the reality for most.

Hey OP, you still out there? What do the economics look like for your bitch of an ex? Your kids?

People are acting like the only choice is a miserable marriage or a divorce.

There is a third choice, and that is a functional, more stable, happier marriage. That takes work though. A PP mentioned people are afraid of divorce. With a 50% divorce rate, I'm thinking that is not the case. I think people are afraid to do the work required to get to a happier marriage.

People post a lot about needs not being met, but what have you done to empower your spouse to meet your needs? Getting your needs met is your responsiblty. It requires putting someone else first at times, even when you don't want to. It requires communicating in a mature way. It requires not be selfish. It requires opening yourself up when it's really, really hard, because you could get really, really hurt, or rejected, abandoned, all those core emotions that are at the root of every petty argument, eye roll, sarcastic remark.

I've been there. I'm there now. I didn't get here because I know it all, but the pain got so bad, I am learning. I am being forced after hitting rock bottom, to realize that it takes two people to make or break a marriage, and I'm one of those two.

OP, so is/was your wife expecting you to file for divorce? Was is agreed that was the course of action that needed to be taken next or was this a surprise to her?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP here. I wanted to add that my parents separated/divorced when I was 8 and I never felt abandoned by my dad moving out. So don't let the fearmongers convince you that your children will feel unloved. I knew that my parents were unhappily married. Once he moved out, the fighting/tension ended!

But you had a golden opportunity to be promiscuous, take drugs, and generally fuck up your life!

Not PP but an adult with divorced parents. My parents divorced when I was 3 so I don't remember what it was like when they were together. However, I must say they did do a fairly good job respecting each other and were usually on the same page parenting wise. I was an honor student in school, graduated college at the top of my class, did not do drugs, did not smoke, did not drink underage, only had 1 sex partner (my DH), and generally have had a pretty successful life as an adult. I have been married over 20 years so I think they still taught me how to have successful relationships even though they were not compatible as husband and wife. I think for me the key was that both my parents did a good job tuning in for what was going on in my life and they both set high expectations for me.
For example, during my teen years if I went out at night, whom ever I was staying with would stay up till I got home. Just a rule both my parents followed. Knowing I would have to face a parent when I walked in made me keep reasonably close to my curfew and I knew I would get busted if I came in high, drunk, or smelled like smoke. They both came to parent teacher conferences, they both reviewed my report card and test grades, they both came to my sports games, and they both volunteered at school. I had friends whose parents were married that did not have both parents as involved as mine were. I knew people in high school (not the crowd I hung out with though) that had married parents that were into parties, drugs, smoking, and sex.

Being compatible spouses and being good parents are two different things.

This is what I try to do for my daughter.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP here. I wanted to add that my parents separated/divorced when I was 8 and I never felt abandoned by my dad moving out. So don't let the fearmongers convince you that your children will feel unloved. I knew that my parents were unhappily married. Once he moved out, the fighting/tension ended!

But you had a golden opportunity to be promiscuous, take drugs, and generally fuck up your life!

Not PP but an adult with divorced parents. My parents divorced when I was 3 so I don't remember what it was like when they were together. However, I must say they did do a fairly good job respecting each other and were usually on the same page parenting wise. I was an honor student in school, graduated college at the top of my class, did not do drugs, did not smoke, did not drink underage, only had 1 sex partner (my DH), and generally have had a pretty successful life as an adult. I have been married over 20 years so I think they still taught me how to have successful relationships even though they were not compatible as husband and wife. I think for me the key was that both my parents did a good job tuning in for what was going on in my life and they both set high expectations for me.

For example, during my teen years if I went out at night, whom ever I was staying with would stay up till I got home. Just a rule both my parents followed. Knowing I would have to face a parent when I walked in made me keep reasonably close to my curfew and I knew I would get busted if I came in high, drunk, or smelled like smoke. They both came to parent teacher conferences, they both reviewed my report card and test grades, they both came to my sports games, and they both volunteered at school. I had friends whose parents were married that did not have both parents as involved as mine were. I knew people in high school (not the crowd I hung out with though) that had married parents that were into parties, drugs, smoking, and sex.

Being compatible spouses and being good parents are two different things.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP here. I wanted to add that my parents separated/divorced when I was 8 and I never felt abandoned by my dad moving out. So don't let the fearmongers convince you that your children will feel unloved. I knew that my parents were unhappily married. Once he moved out, the fighting/tension ended!

But you had a golden opportunity to be promiscuous, take drugs, and generally fuck up your life!

I had that opportunity regardless. Fortunately, my dad raised me to value myself, even (gasp!) though he lived outside of the home!

This is what I say in many threads where people who are in TERRIBLE marriages post that they could never ever consider divorcing because of "what it would do to the kids." Your kids will only be harmed by your divorce if you are an asshole about your divorce. If you can be mature and co-parent with your ex in a healthy way, your kids will be FINE. I was so much better off after my parents divorced. They got along better because they were no longer trapped in a miserable marriage with one another. They went on to marry other people and we got new stepfamilies we loved. On the occasions my parents were around each other, it was no longer unbearable because they didn't have to argue or ignore one another because of the resentment. They could chat nicely, say goodbye, and we all went back to our homes.

I really think too many people stay in awful marriages because it's comfortable and easier for them and they convince themselves that a divorce would ruin their children for life. In reality, living in a home with parents who either visibly hate one another or have practically nothing to do with one another is a much worse model for kids than an amicable divorce. Kids KNOW. They know if you can't stand each other, they know if you avoid each other, they know their home is not happy. I think a lot of kids would prefer two happy homes to one miserable one.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:12:30, I fail to see why your not liking that idea would automatically disqualify OP and his wife from at least considering it. 12:40, THANK YOU. I would wager a large amount of money that those PP's are angry, and it shows, and the kids "catch" it. But as a followup reveals, that poster's ex isn't even trying to be a dad.

Either OP and his ex aren't a good match, or OP is a selfish twit.

OP, I really hope (assuming you're not postin' dirty) if your wife's done some bad things over the course of the marriage that you're not going to stay silent in some misguided attempt to "protect" your wife.

With that said -- how is wife better off staying married to a selfish twit? How is staying miserable in a marriage better for anyone involved?

I also hope these Defenders of Marriage put out, regularly, and otherwise live their lives like Proverbs 31 women (minus the God stuff if they're atheist, the rest is pretty much a Stepford wet dream.)

The OP seems a bit selfish, but the Defenders of Marriage just seem angry. I wonder how much good that does their kids.

Yeah, that wouldn't be the first piece of advice I would give someone having trouble in their marriage. I find it a bit odd that you do.

It depends on the type of trouble they're having. If the two are just headed in somewhat different directions and can get along well as partners/co-parents, then an open marriage or marriage where the two lead largely separate existences shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. In the latter, each party does their own thing, occasionally coming together for family events (and optionally) the occasional date night. This can also work when one partner comes out as asexual or gay later in life, and can be terminated after the kids hit high school or college or continued until death do them part.

Now if OP was caught boning the 20 year old babysitter, an open marriage wouldn't really work out so well and would be more "OP's wife desperately trying to hold on to what she has." I wouldn't recommend an open marriage when the problems revolve around "one partner sneaking around with other people" but I don't know why it's a terrible idea when it's "the partners are just different people but still get along as friends."

Anonymous wrote:12:30, I fail to see why your not liking that idea would automatically disqualify OP and his wife from at least considering it. 12:40, THANK YOU. I would wager a large amount of money that those PP's are angry, and it shows, and the kids "catch" it. But as a followup reveals, that poster's ex isn't even trying to be a dad.

Either OP and his ex aren't a good match, or OP is a selfish twit.

OP, I really hope (assuming you're not postin' dirty) if your wife's done some bad things over the course of the marriage that you're not going to stay silent in some misguided attempt to "protect" your wife.

With that said -- how is wife better off staying married to a selfish twit? How is staying miserable in a marriage better for anyone involved?

I also hope these Defenders of Marriage put out, regularly, and otherwise live their lives like Proverbs 31 women (minus the God stuff if they're atheist, the rest is pretty much a Stepford wet dream.)

The OP seems a bit selfish, but the Defenders of Marriage just seem angry. I wonder how much good that does their kids.

Yeah, that wouldn't be the first piece of advice I would give someone having trouble in their marriage. I find it a bit odd that you do.

I have two dear friends (who are siblings to each other). They are now in their thirties. They have been SO traumatized by the unhappy relationship of their parents for four[b] decades. The parents are still married (although there have been separations and affairs, etc). If only the parents had divorced when these two siblings were little or at least in their teens. Four decades of rancor and fighting and silent treatment between the parents. It has utterly traumatized their adult children. It has affected the marriages of their adult children in such negative ways as well. In fact, it has affected their family friends and other relatives.

PLEASE do not stay married---any of you who are considering divorce--- if this is the kind of marriage you will have. The psychological damage of this is so heavy and will affect generations to come, far more than a divorce and co-parenting.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP here. I wanted to add that my parents separated/divorced when I was 8 and I never felt abandoned by my dad moving out. So don't let the fearmongers convince you that your children will feel unloved. I knew that my parents were unhappily married. Once he moved out, the fighting/tension ended!

But you had a golden opportunity to be promiscuous, take drugs, and generally fuck up your life!

I had that opportunity regardless. Fortunately, my dad raised me to value myself, even (gasp!) though he lived outside of the home!

Anonymous wrote:PP here. I wanted to add that my parents separated/divorced when I was 8 and I never felt abandoned by my dad moving out. So don't let the fearmongers convince you that your children will feel unloved. I knew that my parents were unhappily married. Once he moved out, the fighting/tension ended!

But you had a golden opportunity to be promiscuous, take drugs, and generally fuck up your life!

PP here. I wanted to add that my parents separated/divorced when I was 8 and I never felt abandoned by my dad moving out. So don't let the fearmongers convince you that your children will feel unloved. I knew that my parents were unhappily married. Once he moved out, the fighting/tension ended!

Sounds like a bunch of women in dead marriages.

Anonymous wrote:They are defenders of only a certain type of marriage...

Well they believe in gay marriage. Just not to other gays.

They are defenders of only a certain type of marriage...