Anonymous wrote:op here - I think this thread neatly dekonstrates why we should have a community norm that termination threads by women wbi have already mads the decision are NOT the place to debate abortion. We can debate it elsewhere on dcum, but not where the woman has made up her mind and is not seeking counsel on that point.

But the OP WAS torn. She had concerns. She had not been offered perinatal hospice. She was worried about the expense and the risks.

A mother who held her child in her arms as she died was called a horrible person. THAT was a mean, brutal thing to say.

The anti-choice poster here is trying to pretend that she's just presenting the unbiased facts of how second-trimester abortions proceed. Well, I for one, don't consider the National Right to Life Campaign an unbiased source. The truth is that the medical community has no consensus about when a fetus feels pain. Different studies have shown everything from 18-29 weeks or later - for the release of stress hormones. Whether a fetus has the context to understand that as "pain" is a different question.

But, for instance, when my 22 week old had to undergo surgery while still in the womb - would you have suggested that she be offered anesthesia? Or that I should have forgone lifesaving surgery because she was being "torn apart" without anesthesia?

These questions are complicated, and believe me, women can get all the information they need from, for instance, their genetics counselor without turning to someone like you who is trying to promote an agenda.To pretend that women don't seek information (the information that THEY think is important for their family's decision making) and agonize over these situation shows a profound disrespect for women going through a traumatic event.

PP 15:56 here:

I think this thread neatly dekonstrates why we should have a community norm that termination threads by women wbi have already mads the decision are NOT the place to debate abortion. We can debate it elsewhere on dcum, but not where the woman has made up her mind and is not seeking counsel on that point.

Maybe so...but that's just not the way DCUM is set up at the moment. I wish people were nicer here too, and I wish for lots of different things. There's been some threads that I've found extremely hurtful because they're outrageously racist.

But basically, my choice is deal with it, or leave. I hate to say it but I agree that there's lots of difficult stuff in the world and at DCUM, you expose yourself to some wonderfully nice people, and some really terrible people. (not to say being against abortion makes you terrible...) Anyway, you take the good with the bad or find another internet home.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Joy and grace? I'm sure some people who bring a severely impaired child to term do experience that - witness the Santorum family.

But many suffer a terrible emotional, physical, and financial toll, the worst of which is watching their innocent child suffer while they stand by, unable to help.

That doesn't make sense. So you preempt that by causing the suffering yourself?

Yes, exactly. That is the point. An abortion is a quick and painless way to die for the fetus -- being born with a deadly birth defects is not.

This shows a lack of informed decision making. Many abortions are not quick or painless. Depending on the size of the 'fetus', some are dismembered limb by limb, others have a chemical / acid injected that burns them and that they swallow. Not exactly my definition of quick and painless.

Okay, fine, I give up. I tried for a few posts to discuss this on a reasonable level, but the NP is right -- the passions are too high apparently to talk about this rationally.

PP, calling a position irrational does not make it so.

Fact: extensive medical research has demonstrated that fetuses can feel pain.

Fact: D&E abortions dismember the fetus.

Fact: saline abortions replace amniotic fluid with a saline solution that burns the fetus' skin and is injested, causing convulsions and eventually death. These abortions are more rare now, due to large numbers of babies being born alive, but horribly disfigured.

Fact: some abortions simply involve induction of labor and withholding medical care. Or, the doctor will inject the fetus' heart with potassium chloride first, so the baby will definitely be born dead.

Fact: another term for TMR is eugenic abortion. The pregnancy does not threaten the mother's health. There is something wrong with the baby. Eugenic abortion is not rhetoric; it is a legal term.

None of this is pleasant. All of this is tragic. And so far, post-birth violent abortions are not allowed. But there are ethicists who argue for them, precisely because we are already doing these actions in the womb.

op here - I think this thread neatly dekonstrates why we should have a community norm that termination threads by women wbi have already mads the decision are NOT the place to debate abortion. We can debate it elsewhere on dcum, but not where the woman has made up her mind and is not seeking counsel on that point.

Pro-choice poster here: I agree with the OP that there is no real usefulness to engaging with pro-life posters...but I also am troubled by the idea that some people feel these posters must be "reported."

What usually drags these threads into pointless arguing is when people who are not the original poster feel like they have to fight. I'm pro-choice. That's not going to change. But I don't feel like I need to fight with every anti-abortion poster. Why should they change for me?

It's a free country, DCUM is lightly monitored, and some people feel like they have to witness to their faith in threads about abortion. That's their right (unless Jeff wants to make new rules) As long as the comments aren't abusive to the original poster -- and in the case of the T18 poster, they were not, last time I checked -- then what is the point in saying "no, you're wrong, shut up?" None of us will convince the other. So just let people say what they want to say (within the bounds of decency) and try to refrain from engaging.

Maybe the OP really didn't know about the existence of perinatal hospice. Maybe there's someone else who is reading who would be very helped by that information. I'm pro choice but I'm not afraid to hear from women who have made choices OTHER THAN abortion, and I'm not upset that such choices exist and that they are talked about (again, within the bounds of decent discourse)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Joy and grace? I'm sure some people who bring a severely impaired child to term do experience that - witness the Santorum family.

But many suffer a terrible emotional, physical, and financial toll, the worst of which is watching their innocent child suffer while they stand by, unable to help.

That doesn't make sense. So you preempt that by causing the suffering yourself?

Yes, exactly. That is the point. An abortion is a quick and painless way to die for the fetus -- being born with a deadly birth defects is not.

This shows a lack of informed decision making. Many abortions are not quick or painless. Depending on the size of the 'fetus', some are dismembered limb by limb, others have a chemical / acid injected that burns them and that they swallow. Not exactly my definition of quick and painless.

Okay, fine, I give up. I tried for a few posts to discuss this on a reasonable level, but the NP is right -- the passions are too high apparently to talk about this rationally.

Exactly. The pp you were responding to is a disgrace to women. Not because of her beliefs (thats her decision) but because of how she is doing it. She knows exactly what she is posting and why she is doing it in that way.

Anonymous wrote:
Okay, fine, I give up. I tried for a few posts to discuss this on a reasonable level, but the NP is right -- the passions are too high apparently to talk about this rationally.

Thank you. Because really, no one is getting worked up, or disrespectful besides the people who are flabbergasted that someone would spell out what happens during abortion. No one is being "irrational" besides those who think it's a no-no to tell the truth. There is nothing irrational about saying that many times abortion works by dismembering the child and piecing them back together, or by replacing the amniotic fluid with something else in order to poison them. You think it's irrational to say that, but you think it's rational to actually do it? How does that work?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Joy and grace? I'm sure some people who bring a severely impaired child to term do experience that - witness the Santorum family.

But many suffer a terrible emotional, physical, and financial toll, the worst of which is watching their innocent child suffer while they stand by, unable to help.

That doesn't make sense. So you preempt that by causing the suffering yourself?

Yes, exactly. That is the point. An abortion is a quick and painless way to die for the fetus -- being born with a deadly birth defects is not.

This shows a lack of informed decision making. Many abortions are not quick or painless. Depending on the size of the 'fetus', some are dismembered limb by limb, others have a chemical / acid injected that burns them and that they swallow. Not exactly my definition of quick and painless.

Okay, fine, I give up. I tried for a few posts to discuss this on a reasonable level, but the NP is right -- the passions are too high apparently to talk about this rationally.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here. There really just is no point in entertaining the anti-abortion zealot posters. They will never understand the other side and they do not want to.

They have no compassion for the mothers fears, emotions and decisions because they only want to argue. Thats all they are good for arguing and fear-mongering.

Do not waste your time entertaining them because they will never see, acknowledge or try and understand the pro-abortion side.

Pot meet kettle.

What a thoughtful and smart response pp. And since you are calling me a hypocrite... where did I fear monger or argue in my post? Did I say I had anything against pro-life...NO I have something againse posters who feel the need to try and harrass other women in an agressive way to make them fear a decison they have made. I see both sides and I am not going to make low blows against anyone for their decision. You do not see threads on here for people tearing down people for being pro-life. You only see women get attacked on DCUM for being pro-abortion for whatever circumstance and its disgusting.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Joy and grace? I'm sure some people who bring a severely impaired child to term do experience that - witness the Santorum family.

But many suffer a terrible emotional, physical, and financial toll, the worst of which is watching their innocent child suffer while they stand by, unable to help.

That doesn't make sense. So you preempt that by causing the suffering yourself?

Yes, exactly. That is the point. An abortion is a quick and painless way to die for the fetus -- being born with a deadly birth defects is not.

This shows a lack of informed decision making. Many abortions are not quick or painless. Depending on the size of the 'fetus', some are dismembered limb by limb, others have a chemical / acid injected that burns them and that they swallow. Not exactly my definition of quick and painless.

Anonymous wrote:NP here. There really just is no point in entertaining the anti-abortion zealot posters. They will never understand the other side and they do not want to.

They have no compassion for the mothers fears, emotions and decisions because they only want to argue. Thats all they are good for arguing and fear-mongering.

Do not waste your time entertaining them because they will never see, acknowledge or try and understand the pro-abortion side.

Pot meet kettle.

NP here. There really just is no point in entertaining the anti-abortion zealot posters. They will never understand the other side and they do not want to.

They have no compassion for the mothers fears, emotions and decisions because they only want to argue. Thats all they are good for arguing and fear-mongering.

Do not waste your time entertaining them because they will never see, acknowledge or try and understand the pro-abortion side.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Joy and grace? I'm sure some people who bring a severely impaired child to term do experience that - witness the Santorum family.

But many suffer a terrible emotional, physical, and financial toll, the worst of which is watching their innocent child suffer while they stand by, unable to help.

That doesn't make sense. So you preempt that by causing the suffering yourself?

Yes, exactly. That is the point. An abortion is a quick and painless way to die for the fetus -- being born with a deadly birth defects is not.

This is why these discussions are so important.

http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/Fetal_Pain/FetalPain091604.pdf

http://www.gargaro.com/fetalpain.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/magazine/10Fetal-t.html?_r=1

Yes, joy and grace.

Joy and grace for whom? It sounds like in some insteance, the symptoms of T18 would not provide a peaceful or painless death for the child.