OP, read 'The Evidence that Demands a Verdict' by Josh McDowell.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those who have prayed and felt a divine presence - that's great. It doesn't mean that Divinity = human child born of a virgin mother in a manger and later tried as a criminal, hung on a cross, killed, buried, rose again.

In other words, Divinity there may be. We humans have dressed it up in all these myths. Maybe Christianity is just one more set of myths, like Zeus or Isis or Mithra or Kronos, and so on....

You clearly don't know what you're talking about.

It's not just "praying and feeling a presence", dude!

Okay, dude, if that's not it, let us know what "it" is then. Otherwise, lay off the paternalism.

We're talking about personal spiritual experience here. Are you honestly curious or you want to read my testimony to throw something back at me?

I don't thin you're the OP, anyway. OP came here all honest asking about personal experiences and I'm willing to share mine. Now, to have people poking and mocking me, I get that enough in real life. I don't need this from the pretend world of DCUM.

Sorry, you got up in OP's face with "you clearly don't know what you're talking about" and exclamations. If you want to contribute something, do it respectfully, otherwise, you'll get back in the spirit of what you contribute. (i.e. being un-Christian will get you disrespectful responses).

I'm the OP and I just want to clarify that I was not involved in this part of the discussion. I'm still interested in responses. I understand that some people have a sense of faith that Christianity is just the right way. I respect that for you. I'm just looking for something a little more historical, even if it is a lot of circumstantial pieces of info. If you've questioned if Christianity is "real" and you've come to some conclusions, then I'd like to hear it. As I said, I do respect those who have a sincere belief that isn't really attached to "evidence." That's fine. But, I'm assuming there have been curious, questioning people like me before who have needed more, and perhaps they came up with some points that I haven't.

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure Jesus would be impressed with your quick capitulation and microscopically thin skin. Don't think things would have gone very far in the early days of the Church if the apostles had taken a similar tack. How are non-believers supposed to take this stuff seriously when even its most comitted adherents don't?

No capitulation. I just don't care to discuss religion with someone who chooses mockery as their debate tactic. If one has a willingness and openness to discuss the issue, I'm all for it. But to hear "says your bible" and that my belief is "laughable". That's not suggestive of someone willing to be open-minded enough to have a discussion.

Something to note:

Luke 9:5 "And whoever will not receive you, when you go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet as a testimony against them."

Arguing with those who don't believe is pointless. Maybe you are right and I am wrong about God. But the Scripture teaches that you aren't to continue to minster to those who don't want to hear it. If you have an open mind and we can converse without insults and snide remarks, great. I'm just not interested in engaging in a petty and pointless argument when it's clear that the object of the exercise is just to argue, not to learn/understand.

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure Jesus would be impressed with your quick capitulation and microscopically thin skin. Don't think things would have gone very far in the early days of the Church if the apostles had taken a similar tack. How are non-believers supposed to take this stuff seriously when even its most comitted adherents don't?

But I have yet to see a single PP who does not have faith in Jesus actually take him on directly. That's the difficulty. Instantly, there is talk of Poseidon and the FSM (ad nauseum), but not Jesus. Lord, liar, lunatic, guru, myth? Rise from the dead or not? Specifics? Never.

If Christ did not begin Christianity, who did? Paul knew the stakes. He knew everything rested on the truth of the divinity of Christ:

"if Christ has not been raised, our proclamation has been in vain, and your faith has been in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that He raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised...If Christ has not been raised, then your faith is futile, and you are still in your sins. Then those who also have died in Christ have perished. If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.". (1 Cor 15:14-19)

And doubters need to drop the red herring that "if Christ, heaven for Christians, everyone else is screwed!". Quite the opposite. If Christ, then heaven is POSSIBLE for everyone, and those with the most knowledge of him will have the most responsibility for their actions. (Watch out, unrepentant heretical/abusive priests.) Again, Jesus was a Jew in the Roman empire, and IF Christ, then he was ALSO God, the Creator of all, Who wrote His Word on our hearts. So without ever hearing the name "Jesus," we can love Him or reject Him.

Ok, really one last thing, I was commenting on Pascal's Wager, not your beliefs:

The idea that there are two possibilities: either there is no God, or the NIV bible is literally The Truth is laughable.

Pascal's Wager posits that there are only two possibilities: a) no God; b) NIV is literally The Truth.

There are a million different religious creeds. Yours might well be "The Truth". That is not laughable, though the odds are vanishingly low. Setting up the Wager where you only look at "What I Believe" on the one hand and "Not What I Believe" on the other *is* laughable. And stunningly parochial for someone who claims to be interested in an "intellectual discussion."

Such a discussion would be grounded in *mutual* respect. Your model of respect seems to be decidedly one-way.

One last thing: it's supremely ironic that you would read a comment that says, essentially, "I may not believe, but I think if there is a God, all people of good will will go to Heaven", respond that, "No, no, according to the particular version of the Bible that *I* read, you are going to burn in Hell-fire for all eternity", then when someone expresses mild disbelief that you've got a direct line to the Big Guy, call *that* "a negative turn."

You really are a piece of work.

I'm not sure Jesus would be impressed with your quick capitulation and microscopically thin skin. Don't think things would have gone very far in the early days of the Church if the apostles had taken a similar tack. How are non-believers supposed to take this stuff seriously when even its most comitted adherents don't?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's all about faith. I'm the type of person who is curious and must have answers to questions. Being a Christian, it's very hard to let go of these questions and realize that we will never know the answer. While it might sound like a cop-out, it really is all about having faith.

I look at it like this: What if Christians have it all wrong? What is there is no God/Jesus/heaven? Well, I'm out nothing. I die and that's it. But if I'm right, wow......what a beautiful and glorious thing it will be!!!!!

I have nothing to lose if Jesus Christ/God turn out to be illusions, but *everything* to lose if they are real. In addition, believing in God has brought me peace and strength at difficult times.

Ha! That's pretty ironic: I'm an atheist, and live my life as though this were the only live we get. But I truly believe if there were some sort of omnipotent, omniscient being who shepherds us all that there's no way he'd allow people of goodwill to be "consigned to Hell" for the crime of not believing in Him without evidence. So while I don't believe, I have nothing to lose if such a God actually exists. Yay!

But you see, that's the crux of it all. Anyone can believe in something once they actually see it! It is all about believing, without any requirements for proof.

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Hebrews 11:6 (NIV)

Says your Bible. Of course, the odds that your particular Bible holds such legalistic insight into the rules of the universe (as opposed to Muslims, or Jews, or Hindu, or Shinto, etc, etc, etc...) is absurdly low. As PP said, Pascal's Wager involves adhering to some microscopic subset of possible religious beliefs, because "if I'm wrong, I lose nothing, but if I'm right? HEAVEN!" But that's not the odds. As a religious person, you're betting that there is some sort of religious rule that must be obeyed. As PP said, there are a hundred million such creeds that have evolved and collapsed over the last ten millennial. The idea that there are two possibilities: either there is no God, or the NIV bible is literally The Truth is laughable. Surely you can see that, right?

Hmmmm...my mistake. I thought I was having a conversation with someone willing to be open to intelligent dialogue. My mistake. I have no interest in engaging with someone whose motivation seems to include belittling another person's faith. Have a good night.

Why am I not surprised that a respectful, reasonable question that happens to probe uncomfortable ground would lead to a complete surrender. Seriously, if you don't have the strength of you convictions to engage in an honest and respectful debate, I can't imagine you've got much conviction anyway. We've fallen a long way from the time of Aquinas.

Good night to you to; sleep well.

You called my belief "laughable". You are obviously not coming from a place of wanting to learn/understand my POV. I mean, how much can be learned when you find it all ridiculous? You and I both know you weren't seeking true understanding and you definitely weren't asking in a respectful or reasonable way. And I just don't choose to "battle" with anyone about my belief. If you want an intellectual discussion where ideas can be shared without the need for ridicule and snide remarks, great. But, when it starts to take a negative turn, I'm just not interested.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's all about faith. I'm the type of person who is curious and must have answers to questions. Being a Christian, it's very hard to let go of these questions and realize that we will never know the answer. While it might sound like a cop-out, it really is all about having faith.

I look at it like this: What if Christians have it all wrong? What is there is no God/Jesus/heaven? Well, I'm out nothing. I die and that's it. But if I'm right, wow......what a beautiful and glorious thing it will be!!!!!

I have nothing to lose if Jesus Christ/God turn out to be illusions, but *everything* to lose if they are real. In addition, believing in God has brought me peace and strength at difficult times.

Ha! That's pretty ironic: I'm an atheist, and live my life as though this were the only live we get. But I truly believe if there were some sort of omnipotent, omniscient being who shepherds us all that there's no way he'd allow people of goodwill to be "consigned to Hell" for the crime of not believing in Him without evidence. So while I don't believe, I have nothing to lose if such a God actually exists. Yay!

But you see, that's the crux of it all. Anyone can believe in something once they actually see it! It is all about believing, without any requirements for proof.

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Hebrews 11:6 (NIV)

Says your Bible. Of course, the odds that your particular Bible holds such legalistic insight into the rules of the universe (as opposed to Muslims, or Jews, or Hindu, or Shinto, etc, etc, etc...) is absurdly low. As PP said, Pascal's Wager involves adhering to some microscopic subset of possible religious beliefs, because "if I'm wrong, I lose nothing, but if I'm right? HEAVEN!" But that's not the odds. As a religious person, you're betting that there is some sort of religious rule that must be obeyed. As PP said, there are a hundred million such creeds that have evolved and collapsed over the last ten millennial. The idea that there are two possibilities: either there is no God, or the NIV bible is literally The Truth is laughable. Surely you can see that, right?

Hmmmm...my mistake. I thought I was having a conversation with someone willing to be open to intelligent dialogue. My mistake. I have no interest in engaging with someone whose motivation seems to include belittling another person's faith. Have a good night.

Why am I not surprised that a respectful, reasonable question that happens to probe uncomfortable ground would lead to a complete surrender. Seriously, if you don't have the strength of you convictions to engage in an honest and respectful debate, I can't imagine you've got much conviction anyway. We've fallen a long way from the time of Aquinas.

Good night to you to; sleep well.

Anonymous wrote:Exactly, the only way that Pascal's Wager makes any sense whatsoever is if you don't understand that there are other religions in existence other than mainstream Christianity. "You know, you may not believe in The Flying Spaghetti Monster, but it costs you nothing to pretend to believe. After all, if you die, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster *does* exist, you've lost nothing. If He doesn't, you lose nothing!"

Whether Jesus is divine or not, Pascal's Wager is just a worthless argument.

You know what's funny..I'm the one who posted about it being great if God actually does exists. And I haven't even heard of Pascal and his wager. LOL!!!! Not even joking. I just Googled it and see what you mean.

But in the end, do what feels comfortable for you. I feel comfortable and am very happy with my decision and, as such, feel no need to belittle and/or make fun of anyone else's choice. Do what is best for you. In the end, it's all just about being good moral people, no matter your position on religion.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's all about faith. I'm the type of person who is curious and must have answers to questions. Being a Christian, it's very hard to let go of these questions and realize that we will never know the answer. While it might sound like a cop-out, it really is all about having faith.

I look at it like this: What if Christians have it all wrong? What is there is no God/Jesus/heaven? Well, I'm out nothing. I die and that's it. But if I'm right, wow......what a beautiful and glorious thing it will be!!!!!

I have nothing to lose if Jesus Christ/God turn out to be illusions, but *everything* to lose if they are real. In addition, believing in God has brought me peace and strength at difficult times.

Ha! That's pretty ironic: I'm an atheist, and live my life as though this were the only live we get. But I truly believe if there were some sort of omnipotent, omniscient being who shepherds us all that there's no way he'd allow people of goodwill to be "consigned to Hell" for the crime of not believing in Him without evidence. So while I don't believe, I have nothing to lose if such a God actually exists. Yay!

But you see, that's the crux of it all. Anyone can believe in something once they actually see it! It is all about believing, without any requirements for proof.

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Hebrews 11:6 (NIV)

Says your Bible. Of course, the odds that your particular Bible holds such legalistic insight into the rules of the universe (as opposed to Muslims, or Jews, or Hindu, or Shinto, etc, etc, etc...) is absurdly low. As PP said, Pascal's Wager involves adhering to some microscopic subset of possible religious beliefs, because "if I'm wrong, I lose nothing, but if I'm right? HEAVEN!" But that's not the odds. As a religious person, you're betting that there is some sort of religious rule that must be obeyed. As PP said, there are a hundred million such creeds that have evolved and collapsed over the last ten millennial. The idea that there are two possibilities: either there is no God, or the NIV bible is literally The Truth is laughable. Surely you can see that, right?

Hmmmm...my mistake. I thought I was having a conversation with someone willing to be open to intelligent dialogue. My mistake. I have no interest in engaging with someone whose motivation seems to include belittling another person's faith. Have a good night.

Exactly, the only way that Pascal's Wager makes any sense whatsoever is if you don't understand that there are other religions in existence other than mainstream Christianity. "You know, you may not believe in The Flying Spaghetti Monster, but it costs you nothing to pretend to believe. After all, if you die, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster *does* exist, you've lost nothing. If He doesn't, you lose nothing!"

Whether Jesus is divine or not, Pascal's Wager is just a worthless argument.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's all about faith. I'm the type of person who is curious and must have answers to questions. Being a Christian, it's very hard to let go of these questions and realize that we will never know the answer. While it might sound like a cop-out, it really is all about having faith.

I look at it like this: What if Christians have it all wrong? What is there is no God/Jesus/heaven? Well, I'm out nothing. I die and that's it. But if I'm right, wow......what a beautiful and glorious thing it will be!!!!!

I have nothing to lose if Jesus Christ/God turn out to be illusions, but *everything* to lose if they are real. In addition, believing in God has brought me peace and strength at difficult times.

Ha! That's pretty ironic: I'm an atheist, and live my life as though this were the only live we get. But I truly believe if there were some sort of omnipotent, omniscient being who shepherds us all that there's no way he'd allow people of goodwill to be "consigned to Hell" for the crime of not believing in Him without evidence. So while I don't believe, I have nothing to lose if such a God actually exists. Yay!

But you see, that's the crux of it all. Anyone can believe in something once they actually see it! It is all about believing, without any requirements for proof.

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Hebrews 11:6 (NIV)

Says your Bible. Of course, the odds that your particular Bible holds such legalistic insight into the rules of the universe (as opposed to Muslims, or Jews, or Hindu, or Shinto, etc, etc, etc...) is absurdly low. As PP said, Pascal's Wager involves adhering to some microscopic subset of possible religious beliefs, because "if I'm wrong, I lose nothing, but if I'm right? HEAVEN!" But that's not the odds. As a religious person, you're betting that there is some sort of religious rule that must be obeyed. As PP said, there are a hundred million such creeds that have evolved and collapsed over the last ten millennial. The idea that there are two possibilities: either there is no God, or the NIV bible is literally The Truth is laughable. Surely you can see that, right?

I find it fascinating that the PPs who did not answer the OP's question, but took a moment to take a swipe at belief in Jesus, cited such reasons as "it's just how they were raised" or "you believe whatever myths you learn as a child" or "it's all faith, no reason."

I think what's fascinating is that you can read comments by people of good faith who are discussing the issue in a straightforward and rational manner and attack them for "taking a swipe at belief in Jesus". You really need to think about why you need to cast yourself in the role of the victim here.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those who have prayed and felt a divine presence - that's great. It doesn't mean that Divinity = human child born of a virgin mother in a manger and later tried as a criminal, hung on a cross, killed, buried, rose again.

In other words, Divinity there may be. We humans have dressed it up in all these myths. Maybe Christianity is just one more set of myths, like Zeus or Isis or Mithra or Kronos, and so on....

You clearly don't know what you're talking about.

It's not just "praying and feeling a presence", dude!

Okay, dude, if that's not it, let us know what "it" is then. Otherwise, lay off the paternalism.

We're talking about personal spiritual experience here. Are you honestly curious or you want to read my testimony to throw something back at me?

I don't thin you're the OP, anyway. OP came here all honest asking about personal experiences and I'm willing to share mine. Now, to have people poking and mocking me, I get that enough in real life. I don't need this from the pretend world of DCUM.

Sorry, you got up in OP's face with "you clearly don't know what you're talking about" and exclamations. If you want to contribute something, do it respectfully, otherwise, you'll get back in the spirit of what you contribute. (i.e. being un-Christian will get you disrespectful responses).