OP here, thanks PP. I feel so torn between DW and the needs of the kids. It is really hard and overwhelming. I want everyone to do well and be happy.

P.S. myself happily married with sweet kids, good career, but my old therapist told me not having a mom around may have stuck me in a kind of eternal childhood, where I have felt independent since I was young but was not taught things that a young lady should know, and resist authority. My attitudes about some things - like housework! - lack a certain maturity. I pitied people who arrived at college and couldn't cook or do their own laundry as I had since I was young.

15:06 here. It affected us each differently. My oldest sister and brother have done well in life. Brother never had kids but is in a good relationship and did well in his career. Sis is a super hands-on WOHM hockey mom, happily married, whose kids are both in college on scholarships. She made an extra effort to support her kids in every activity they were interested in part because our Dad was pretty exhausted. We still have a great relationship with Dad and his love of fishing, camping, etc. rubbed off on us all.
My brother who was 12 when the divorce went through acted out a lot and was the black sheep - cut school, smoked dope, drinking problem, did the conservation corp, the Army...he ended up in the tech industry, and is happily married but no kids. He was always smart but he was just young enough to not be able to really deal with what was going on. I think it effected him the most.

Sorry for typos above.

Anonymous wrote:OP, you may someday find yourself in a situation where the best thing for the family is to separate from your DW. I hope that never happens. But you should keep it in the back of your mind as a possible future and have a plan.
My mom was great mom in the early years (or so I am told by my older siblings.) She had a college degree and was a SAHM, that house everybody's friends visit after school. My parents divorced when I was 5. As her grip on lucidity began slipping away, she did many things that put us all in danger (one small example would be she took up smoking, would light her cigarettes on the stove and leave the burner on all night.) My Dad tried everything, had to liquidate the house paying for different treatments, and part of the reason for the divorce was so my Mom could get state care. Nothing the doctors could do really worked to bring her back.
I do not feel attached to my biological Mom. I do not remember most of the wonderful things she did for me when I was little (like teach me to read) and it breaks my father's heart. Visits with her were stressful and even as an adult the prospect of visiting her feels terrifying and overwhelming, coupled with guilt. She would space out, forget who I was, where we were or where we were going. She would start crying, or laughing hysterically, for no reason. I am grateful every day that two of my older siblings who live closer step in to care for her when extra help is needed.
It may not be what happens for you. Dealing with my mom's health and becoming a single father set back, ok, ruined my father financially. Therapy has come a long long way since those days. But not every patient can be cured. God bless you and all the best.

OP here, thanks for sharing your story. I hope that isn't where we are headed but something is very wrong. I hope I can have your father's strength and fortitude. It's frightening to feel someone slip away, actually that word doesn't even begin to capture how frantic I feel. The kids's attitudes toward DW has changed in some significant way and I worry about what that signifies. I think sometimes they see things more clearly, they watch their parents so closely. PP how did you nad your sibs find life as adults? I can't take this experience away from the kids and worry for their futures. Wishing peace for you and your family.

OP, you may someday find yourself in a situation where the best thing for the family is to separate from your DW. I hope that never happens. But you should keep it in the back of your mind as a possible future and have a plan.
My mom was great mom in the early years (or so I am told by my older siblings.) She had a college degree and was a SAHM, that house everybody's friends visit after school. My parents divorced when I was 5. As her grip on lucidity began slipping away, she did many things that put us all in danger (one small example would be she took up smoking, would light her cigarettes on the stove and leave the burner on all night.) My Dad tried everything, had to liquidate the house paying for different treatments, and part of the reason for the divorce was so my Mom could get state care. Nothing the doctors could do really worked to bring her back.
I do not feel attached to my biological Mom. I do not remember most of the wonderful things she did for me when I was little (like teach me to read) and it breaks my father's heart. Visits with her were stressful and even as an adult the prospect of visiting her feels terrifying and overwhelming, coupled with guilt. She would space out, forget who I was, where we were or where we were going. She would start crying, or laughing hysterically, for no reason. I am grateful every day that two of my older siblings who live closer step in to care for her when extra help is needed.
It may not be what happens for you. Dealing with my mom's health and becoming a single father set back, ok, ruined my father financially. Therapy has come a long long way since those days. But not every patient can be cured. God bless you and all the best.

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm a therapist. If you're kids are that young, I would hold off on family therapy. In situations like these, when an adult is in crisis (and it sounds to me like your wife is having many of the symptoms associated with PTSD), it is most important to address that crisis first. Your kids likely don't have the emotional or cognitive insight to understand that mom being the way she is isn't about them. Family therapy with a person who is so unwell might prove harmful to the kids.. The first step is to help your wife get linked with a practitioner with expertise in treating trauma, while at the same time finding separate, supportive services for the kids (whether it be a therapist or another nurturing trusted adult who can help them feel safe and secure). Hopefully, when your wife is feeling better and her emotions and behavior are more stable, you can engage with at therapist who can assit her in building their attachment to each other. A clinician skilled in a model like Theraplay would be helpful in building that bond between them.

Thanks.

OP, I'm a therapist. If you're kids are that young, I would hold off on family therapy. In situations like these, when an adult is in crisis (and it sounds to me like your wife is having many of the symptoms associated with PTSD), it is most important to address that crisis first. Your kids likely don't have the emotional or cognitive insight to understand that mom being the way she is isn't about them. Family therapy with a person who is so unwell might prove harmful to the kids.. The first step is to help your wife get linked with a practitioner with expertise in treating trauma, while at the same time finding separate, supportive services for the kids (whether it be a therapist or another nurturing trusted adult who can help them feel safe and secure). Hopefully, when your wife is feeling better and her emotions and behavior are more stable, you can engage with at therapist who can assit her in building their attachment to each other. A clinician skilled in a model like Theraplay would be helpful in building that bond between them.

Anonymous wrote:OP. A few things here. First, your kids are in aftercare because you and DW both work. This isn't doing her a favor it's a necessity like paying the light bill. You seem to view aftercare as giving your wife a break. Not cool. Second, your kids are elementary school age. With the playground incident, surely they have the skills to solve this problem? You presented as if your wife left a toddler alone, not two elementary-aged kids. You also seem to dictate how your wife plays and interacts with the kids. You remind me of a mom who says "I want DH to play educational games" when all DH wants to do is go trow a ball around with the kids or teach the kids a hobby he loves that wife doesn't find interesting. Lastly, just because she doesn't work dosn't mean she isn't isolated. Are you really letting her do an activity or two that lights her up? Do you say "I'll take the kids while you go sailing" and then actually do it? Sounds in many ways like your wife is doing a "guy move" where Dad says "this is how we do things" and she isn't on board anymore. She deffinately has other things going on, but the dynamic in your house could be a large part of the problem"

OP here - Thanks for your input. I'm working on finding a family therapist to address dynamics, I want to change what I can. We did couple's therapy but she didn't participate, we tried a few folks. I'm totally willing to look at how I am contributing to the problem, I sincerely just want things to be better. Re: aftercare, I don't see it as anything but childcare, I was just trying to address whether the kids were with DW for long periods alone and they are not at this time. The kids are on the very young age of elementary school, way too young to be left anywhere, never mind a public place. To do something like that due to annoyance is so out of character for the DW I have known, who is very cautious, it concerned me for the kids but also for her. I have encouraged DW to pursue old hobbies or to reconnect with old friends, she doesn't seem interested at this point. I don't know if it is the depression or what. I appreciate your suggestions and am at a loss as to why she seems to be slipping further inside herself. At the same time the dynamics are getting more chaotic, she's not just depressed and passive anymore, when there is action it's often angry, something like leaving the kids. I saw on another thread something about aggitated depression reading like anger, dunno if that could be part of it. For those who have never had your kids ask not to be left with their other parent, it is heartbreaking. If there is help out there that can make a difference I want to get it, which is why I started the thread. There are a lot of details that I've omitted or changed, her problems are much more extensive and longstanding than I had been lead to believe. I worry that she is not on board with parenting and family life, that it stirs up too much stuff. It's very difficult.

To me, the OP seems to be trying to dictate the terms of what will happen, and the wife is disengaging rather than fight him. Truthfully, if she was abused, the overbearing behavior of her husband is quite probably a trigger and encourages the dissociation.

To the PP, I can totally see how someone who grew up in a normal family could listen to everything the OP has described and think that he is making something out of nothing. I'm assuming that the OP is being as truthful and accurate as possible, and as someone who grew up in a crazy disfunctional household I can totally see why the behaviors he is seeing are giving him the sense that something is seriously wrong.

OP, I hope you are getting somewhere as you look for theraputic options, I'm sorry that I don't know anyone in this area to recommend. It sucks to say this, because clearly you are already hurting, but be ready for things to get worse before they get better. If your wife does agree to engage with her past and seriously address her current issues, that is likely to be a painful process and she may become less functional before she starts to improve. Since you can't control what your wife does, I strongly suggest building your own support system. You don't have to give people all the details, but let family and friends know that you could use extra support. If you don't feel like you have a network of people you can depend on, start building one. Isolation and silence is bad for you and bad for your kids.

OP. A few things here. First, your kids are in aftercare because you and DW both work. This isn't doing her a favor it's a necessity like paying the light bill. You seem to view aftercare as giving your wife a break. Not cool. Second, your kids are elementary school age. With the playground incident, surely they have the skills to solve this problem? You presented as if your wife left a toddler alone, not two elementary-aged kids. You also seem to dictate how your wife plays and interacts with the kids. You remind me of a mom who says "I want DH to play educational games" when all DH wants to do is go trow a ball around with the kids or teach the kids a hobby he loves that wife doesn't find interesting. Lastly, just because she doesn't work dosn't mean she isn't isolated. Are you really letting her do an activity or two that lights her up? Do you say "I'll take the kids while you go sailing" and then actually do it? Sounds in many ways like your wife is doing a "guy move" where Dad says "this is how we do things" and she isn't on board anymore. She deffinately has other things going on, but the dynamic in your house could be a large part of the problem"

Anonymous wrote:My mother grew up in an abusive household. Emotionally, she held us at arms length. She equated love/motherhood with abuse and in her attempt to not repeat the process she felt that she couldn't get too close to us or she would continue the pattern. It took a lot mental and emotional energy for her to not repeat those patterns with her own kids so she had little to nothing else emotionally left at the end of the day anyway. Maybe there is a happy medium but maybe not. Maybe it just takes a generation of sacrifice. My mother did break the pattern - she was never physically abusive towards us but she was emotionally distant. My father filled in emotionally for what my mother couldn't do. It was not perfect but as an adult I realize she did the best she could. I realize how trying kids are and she had 5 of them and did not resort to any physical punishment but I am sure it was hard especially back when spanking was quite the norm.

Now, for my own kid, I have the advantage of not having to expend the mental or emotional effort to avoid physically hurting my child and can focus on being emotionally connected.

This is an interesting perspective. How do you think that you were impacted by her emotional distancing? How were you able to mother in a connected way without that having been your experience?

Anonymous wrote:
OP - I feel for you. My DH suffers from serious depression and anxiety and it has cast a dark shadow over the last couple of years including my pregnancy and the arrival of our baby girl. That said, from reading this thread you don't sound like you have a lot of empathy for her...Are you posting on this forum for vindication and sympathy?

OP here, I am sorry that your family has had the same type of struggles. I don't want to leave DW, I want our family to be happy and healthy. I will think about what you have said. I think in part I may lack empathy at this point due to burn out, this has gone on for too long. DW says she doesn't want to leave either but her staying like this is untenable too. I was hoping to get some support and advice from those who may have BTDT. I had thought, as did DW, that depression was the problem. Clearly it is bigger than that and therapists who focus on trauma may be helpful. I am very sad that DW had a bad childhood but what is happening to these kids is bad too and it makes me angry that it doesn't even seem to register all that much with her. I can see that the meds might make her more distant but when we ran into the acquaintance it was like she plugged in, she was so animated and vivacious. The kids were so hurt. I just want all of this to be different.

I came from a very abusive and dysfunctional family. My mother is a manic depresive, or bi-polar, or both, along with 2 of my siblings. My parents came from dysfunctional families, dinrking problems, depression...

I watched it all unfold. As a teenager, my mom soiught help and tried medication after medication and diet after diet. It was a complete yo-yo for me day to day, weeke to week. I swore that would not be me. Ever.

Fast forward to my 30s. Married, 2 small kids. And I had become some aspects of my mom that I did not want to be. I did not know how to correct it, went to therapy. I am on Prozac. That said... I am less responsive to the kids on Prozac. So your wife's medication is what could be making her distant from the kids, or at least contributing to it.

I recognize this, and I try extremely hard to be engaged with my kids.

Look into Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. Drugs can help manage depression, anxiety, etc. I'm trying it myself because my goal is to get off Prozac.
http://www.beckinstitute.org/what-is-cognitive-behavioral-therapy/

"Cognitive therapy is based on a cognitive theory of psychopathology. The cognitive model describes how people’s perceptions of, or spontaneous thoughts about, situations influence their emotional, behavioral (and often physiological) reactions. Individuals’ perceptions are often distorted and dysfunctional when they are distressed. They can learn to identify and evaluate their “automatic thoughts” (spontaneously occurring verbal or imaginal cognitions), and to correct their thinking so that it more closely resembles reality. When they do so, their distress usually decreases, they are able to behave more functionally, and (especially in anxiety cases), their physiological arousal abates.

Individuals also learn to identify and modify their distorted beliefs: their basic understanding of themselves, their worlds, and other people. These distorted beliefs influence their processing of information, and give rise to their distorted thoughts. Thus, the cognitive model explains individuals’ emotional, physiological, and behavioral responses as mediated by their perceptions of experience, which are influenced by their beliefs and by their characteristic ways of interacting with the world, as well as by the experiences themselves. "